| Author | Message | ||
     Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 359 Registered: 10-2005  |
I wish UU had a better name...what an awful mouthfull! | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1278 Registered: 10-2004  |
Y not just call it W | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14071 Registered: 1-2003  |
If you're willing to pay for and shuttle your kid to soccer, why not church? Because it's icky? campbell29, your kid could also be something other than Christian or Jewish. | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 4692 Registered: 5-2001  |
You could also try Wyoming Presbyterian. The people who worship there are from Maplewood, Millburn and Short HIlls for the most part. There is Sunday School during worship from pre-school through 8th grade. There is children's sunday the 2nd sunday of every month. There is a nursery for babies/toddlers. It is a very welcoming congregation and very family friendly. It may be worth a visit. www.wpcusa.com | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11415 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ffof, I am boycotting all Presbyterian churches until they change the name back to the original; Church of Scotland Sincerly Bobby MacCutcheon | ||
| campbell29 Citizen Username: Campbell29 Post Number: 423 Registered: 4-2002 |
Tom - certainly she could be something other than Christian or Jewish - I just wouldn't know where or how to begin to introduce her to something like that. I think part of not wanting to send her to temple or church is part of the "icky" factor as you call it. I think there is some benefit to sports, or music classes or girl scouts, I don't think there is any benefit from organized religion, so I am reluctant to spend time and money fostering an interest. If she should decide that she wants to go to church or temple or whatever, with a friend, I wouldn't object, but I would have serious qualms if she decided to have a bat mitzvah, or whatever the Christian equivalent is, because it would involve a lot or time, effort and money on my part. That said, she's so darn spoiled that if she were to suddenly be called to the Torah - no doubt we would plunk out the bucks and humor her.  Its actually interesting about her attitudes toward religion - We live close to Our Lady of Sorrows and she periodically sees the nuns dressed in their habits. She asked why they were dressed that way, and I told her they were "church ladies" and that was there uniform. She pondered this awhile and said "why don't you become a church lady?" I explained that church ladies had to be Christian and couldn't be married or have children, so I couldn't do that. Her response - "well, you could always just not tell them about that" I then had to explain further that one doesn't lie in order to become a nun. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14074 Registered: 1-2003 |
Interesting daughter you have there! How old is she? The icky factor is a judgement that could send you in unwanted directions. It reminds me of how my ex-wife (my kids' mother) took them shopping for clothes but didn't end up buying them anything, because they picked out colors she didn't like. You might be withholding something that is meaningful for your kids. Then again, she could seek it after she's an adult, so I'm not saying you MUST do this. And don't discount the idea that becoming members is fruitless. As I said, it is a community of people. And there might be something else valuable to take from it. You don't necessarily have to agree in all ideology. My rabbi says that religions have taken on a triumphalist viewpoint but it's really an archaic stance. Not all churches and synagogues feel they know what's right for everyone. And not all religions believe that God is some guy in the sky throwing down lightning bolts. Belief in God could mean the notion of a collective consciousness or something like that, not supernatural or authoritarian. | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 4693 Registered: 5-2001 |
Good points Tom. And campbell, you said "I don't think there is any benefit from organized religion". I think there is a lot more to it than that. For instance, at the Wyoming Church (of Scotland! thanks bobk!) they do an enormous amount of outreach programs that directly effect needs in our area. There are feeding programs, afterschool programs where the kids help kids at a small church in Newark, clothing drives, etc etc. Everyone gets involved. The group efforts to help our neighboring communities are tremendous and a benefit to those who receive and those who give/do. Basically, I think you can take what you want, need, from religion. With the Presbyterians, there is not a lot of dogma, and I think that is attractive to many. We have a lot of former catholics because of that. | ||
| LilLB Citizen Username: Lillb Post Number: 1654 Registered: 10-2002  |
I'm now an atheist, but was raised Roman Catholic and converted to the Lutheran church in my late 20s. I converted because, at the time, I thought that I would one day want children and I felt that it would be my responsibility as a parent to expose them to religion and help them build faith of their own. I knew I wasn't really Catholic, so I set out to find a place that I felt my faith and views fit with. I really felt that nurturing religion/spirituality in your children was as important as teaching them about and encouraging their physical, emotional and cognitive well-being. Even though I am no longer a believer, I am still so appreciative that I had the experience of learning about God and what it means to have faith. It was comforting to grow up believing in God and practicing worship. I also had parents who provided an excellent example of what it means to have conviction (although they were that way about everything in their lives, not just their faith). I realize that the lessons I learned through religion could be learned elsewhere. You don't have to belong to a religion or even believe in God to learn about faith and morals, but looking back, for me, it was worthwhile and I am eternally grateful my parents encouraged that part of life. Even if you are not a believer, I would encourage your kids to explore religion and faith, especially if they are showing an interest on their own. And, be honest about your beliefs as well - if anything, that will show them that faith and religious beliefs are a choice. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 360 Registered: 10-2005 |
But don't Presbytarian-Church-of-Scottland-Calvinist-Puritans believe in predestination? My husband was raised a Presbitarian, and he says no, I'm wrong. But I think he just didn't get that part of the doctrine. | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 4695 Registered: 5-2001 |
pre-destination? What does that mean? That you go to God in the end? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14093 Registered: 1-2003 |
There are a couple of other benefits we haven't spoken of, unless I haven't paid good attention. One is that the teachings at these places can give a sense of how individuals are part of a greater whole. You most certainly can learn this elsewhere, though it's clear that not everyone does. Another is that it may even be physically beneficial. Recent neurological studies show that prayer and meditation can alter the chemistry in the brain in a good way. It's not clear why. Neither of these benefits requires belief in anything mystical or scientifically inexplicable. | ||
| LilLB Citizen Username: Lillb Post Number: 1658 Registered: 10-2002 |
I'm not a Presbyterian, but I think they do believe in predestination. It's probably a fairly misunderstood concept though. http://www.pcusa.org/today/believe/believe.htm | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14094 Registered: 1-2003 |
Predestination | ||
| weekends Citizen Username: Weekends Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2002 |
FactvsFiction -- you made me laugh, twice. Thanks. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14095 Registered: 1-2003 |
She (am I assuming right?) made me laugh thrice! | ||
| Joe R. Citizen Username: Ragnatela Post Number: 419 Registered: 6-2004 |
Can we do a survey? How many of the atheists on this thread have either baptized their kids or had a Bris? I'm not Jewish, but wouldn't a Jewish atheist skip the Bris, as the Bris is a covenant of the bond between the child and God? I know of atheists of Catholic background who Baptize their children nonetheless. It would seem to be hypocritical. Agnostics? That's another story. Maybe they want to hedge the bet. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14097 Registered: 1-2003 |
Such rituals don't necessarily denote that you believe something. It's a tradition. It may signify a connection to one's people or religion. Some do it as a sort of hedge against whatever ill might befall someone who isn't circumsized. For instance, an agnostic parent may be unconvinced of the existence of God but may fear what may happen anyway. | ||
| Hagbard Celine Citizen Username: Umbert Post Number: 137 Registered: 3-2004  |
"The point is, I don't know. How could anyone know?" I think that makes you agnostic, not aethiest. Aethiests think they do know, that they do have an answer, and that answer is "nothing more than man". raise your children to have faith in themselves, that's all that matters. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14099 Registered: 1-2003 |
On the TV show Taxi, the character named Latke said something like, "In my country, we believe, and rightly so, that the difference between humans and other creatures is senseless beliefs and useless traditions." And it's true. We draw a sense of heritage and unity from the fact that rituals are voluntary. To continue voluntary rituals, they actually need to be functionless, or, as you might call them, useless or meaningless. That's rather ironic, but I do sometimes feel joy at knowing that I'm doing something my ancestors did centuries, or even millenia, ago. Hagbard Celine, don't we have to have faith in other humans, too? Faith in others can build faith in ourselves, and vice versa. | ||
| campbell29 Citizen Username: Campbell29 Post Number: 424 Registered: 4-2002 |
Tom: Yes my child is "interesting", she would tell you so herself. She is 8. I don't want you to think that she is sitting about obsessing about religion (or that her parents are sitting about obsessing about how to keep her from it). She had a friend, who has since moved away, whose family was fairly religious and very involved in their church. She was naturally curious about what it was all about because they often talked quite freely about G-d and said grace before dinner and whatnot. They did not in any way try to evangelize to her. Perhaps I should send her to your synagogue, so she can experience more than one religious service. Although, the church she went to had rock music, a cafe and a cool Kids Zone, so I don't know if you guys are up for the competition  . I understand the joining for a sense of community, outreach and shared purpose, but if one doesn't accept the existence of a divinty, isn't it a bit disingenouse? Kind of like joining the French club even though you have no interest in the language or culture, but you enjoy the wine? Isn't the G-d part kind of a pre-requisite? | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 299 Registered: 4-2006 |
Okay, now I have to give my serious take on all this. On religion you have to be fully into it. That means the Jews do all 613 commandments and the Catholics don't fornicate using birth control. This stuff about picking and choosing what parts of your religion you want to observe, like shopping in the grocery store, is not honest nor is it ethical. It should be all or nothing if you believe any amount of what your religion supposedly teaches or requires of you. I think people basically want to hedge their bets, as it were, to ensure a shot at heaven, if their religions are correct. Plus have an excuse to put up x-mas trees and spin dreidels. Our religious observance, as minimal as it may be, is about death, not life. Man has always tried to square the anxiety and fact of death with some greater meaning. A great book which I highly recommend is Ancient Egyptian Religion by Henri Frankfort. I find Frankfort shows many parallels between modern man and the ancients when it comes to life concerns and religious rationale. It is very humbling as well to consider how far we have not come, in some senses from the ancients, and that there is a common human thread that continues throughout the generations of mankind. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 300 Registered: 4-2006 |
weekends- thank you. I am still pulling for Shanabana going the worshiping money route. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14101 Registered: 1-2003 |
If I were perfect, perhaps I would observe all 613 mitzvahs. But I'm not. And by my reckoning, there hasn't been a perfect person yet. Apologies to Christians for saying that. I'm not aiming for heaven. There's plenty of heaven and hell here on earth. To me, those are allegorical concepts. There are religions that say you have to embrace all of it or nothing. That works for some. There are religions that don't say that. That works for others. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 305 Registered: 4-2006 |
Tom- So what religions are you referring to? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14106 Registered: 1-2003 |
It doesn't matter. I think I shouldn't be too specific, out of respect for observers. | ||
| breal Citizen Username: Breal Post Number: 881 Registered: 6-2002 |
The Ethical Culture Society even has a highly regarded Sunday school for kids. It's convenient. Nothing about God, I don't think. But they let you in even if you do believe in God, as I understand it. The reason I'm thinking Ethical Culture is that maybe you could stand it, and I don't see how this could work unless at least one parent could stand the place/practice. Good luck. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 307 Registered: 4-2006 |
Tom- You can be a do-it-yourself Scientologist, just put a metal pot on your head and yell "clear". ( Please Mr. Cruise, don't sue me ) it's satire, damn it ! | ||
| Jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 721 Registered: 1-2006  |
I always say I was raised by parents of mixed religions: my mother was an atheist, my father was an agnostic. However, they had grown up with CHURCH and appreciated the asthetics of midnight mass and Easter services. The tried out Ethical Culture and Unitarianism in the 1970s and found that Ethical Culture was disinfranchised Jews and Unitarian was disenfranchised "other." Since the Unitarian Church in Montclair had midnight Candle Light Meeting (not Mass.) the asthetics matched for them. We aren't Jewish. I went to the U.U. Sunday school, which taught all religions, along with anti-war, and pro-contraception internationally themes. We had camp outs, painted the Sunday school room with our hand prints, and had bake sales. It was some of the social stuff that people get from CHURCH. When we were around 13 years old the U.U. had us "become adults." It was a watered down Bar/Bat Mitzvah and Conformation all rolled into one. Many of my classmates were also active in a Catholic Church or a Temple, so they had the "real" version too. In the U.U. church it was our opportunity to decide and declare our beliefs and pledge to follow them, and respect the beliefs of others. At thirteen, I thought it was kind of weird that I could decide my own religion. I didn't get a say about gravity and other "truths." So I, kind of abandoned religion, and I guess on that day declared myself an atheist/agnostic like my parents. I remember discussing religion with another high school student whose parents had done none of this. She said, "It just never occured to me that there was a God. I didn't grow up with it. I always thought it was just me." She was a great person then, and, I'm sure still is -- no CHURCH. That said, I was raised with very strong morals, that I got from my parents. Not too long ago, I considered doing some work that I thought was shady, just to make some money while I could set up my real deal. I spoke to my father about it and he said, "I'd hate for you to be a part of something shady." I hung up and cried in shame. I didn't do it. Both of them have very accurate moral compasses. When my experience with religion has been washed away by the real moral questions I face, it is that guidance that I look to. Good luck, J.B. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 361 Registered: 10-2005 |
Fact vs. Fiction: "On religion you have to be fully into it. That means the Jews do all 613 commandments and the Catholics don't fornicate using birth control. This stuff about picking and choosing what parts of your religion you want to observe, like shopping in the grocery store, is not honest nor is it ethical." I have to disagree here. The "rules" of religions were written by people, who are interpreters of texts, which are supposed to be propheses, and historical narratives guided by god. Because the rules are interpretations, houses of Catholic worship differ from each other, and this is the same in other religions (Jewish, Islamic, etc.) It depends on the priest, the rabbi, Iman, etc, and which passages in the holy text they choose to emphasize. If there were one Catholic faith, undivided, it would take seconds to elect a pope, not days. My grandmother, a devout 2-ice a week Catholic, felt that abortion was a woman's right to choose, not a church's or a government's. Anyhoo, if you're catholic you can use contraceptives and just buy indulgences to pay down that debt, right?  | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 362 Registered: 10-2005 |
On baptism: My mother didn't want to have me baptized. My grandma got holy water from the priest, and performed the baptism herself. My research into baptism says that while not ideal, such a baptism by layperson is, in fact, legitimate. While I never took communion or attended Catholic ceremonies regularly, I still felt a special bond to that religion for that reason. But more importantly, I felt a special bond with my Grandma; like, she really felt it was necessary to go behind my mom's back and do this thing. I find it very touching. I don't think I'll have my kids baptized. I didn't have my son circumsized either. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 363 Registered: 10-2005 |
On predestination: Thanks, Tom. Wow, I guess I oversimplified that concept in my mind! | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 321 Registered: 4-2006 |
Shanabana- If the rules are man-made that should tell you something, (i.e. " make-believe") The book I referred to above actually notes the strong similiarities between ancient egyptian religious beliefs and those today. In short man first seeks meaning, and then protection/continuation from death. Religion should be like love, you are either passionately in it, or you are not. While I am not catholic I would like to be put on the next Pope election committee to further burnish my resume. I know nothing of indulging contraceptives, is there a "Trojan rule"? But I think an education in ethics is key to a good moral compass for a kid. I really liked Jersey's post. Otherwise just have your kids celebrate Festivus. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 367 Registered: 10-2005 |
Well, ethics are without question a must in this household. I definitely don't see religion as having a monopoly on values. Hagbard Celine said I'm probably more agnostic than athiest, because "I don't know." Maybe. But I just don't think I'm equipped with the "God gene" that makes some agnostics pretty certain that there is some great being or entity. I teach history of art, and therefore am pretty familliar with religious imagery. There are indeed many similarities between Christianity and ancient Egyptian religions. An afterlife, for one. Also, the concept of the Virgin Mary, some argue, derives from the figure of the goddess Isis in Egypt. Oh, mighty Isis!!! | ||
| C Bataille Citizen Username: Nakaille Post Number: 2593 Registered: 5-2001 |
Shanabana, looking forward to meeting you. I'll be at the 10:30 service tomorrow. Cathy | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 2731 Registered: 9-2003  |
My husband was raised Methodist, and his family was very involved in their church. Me, a little of this and a little of that protestant religion; neither parent eager to become church members as they'd had enough growing up. My kid is nearly 13, and I do regret not getting her into church and Sunday schoo routinely. We had all the usual reasons related to work schedules, personal uncertainties. She was baptised, and we were married in my husband's Methodist churct, but that's been about it. I think that both culturally and spiritually belonging consistently to a church would be good for us, and for the kid. UU is probably a good place to start, and I do think they vary a whole lot in how they do their thing. Me, I get attracted to Quakers! | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 369 Registered: 10-2005 |
Yeah, that Quaker Oats guy is pretty hot!! | ||
| ina Citizen Username: Ina Post Number: 351 Registered: 6-2001 |
"the Catholics don't fornicate using birth control" - you crack me up, FvF. Italy, over 90% of whose population identifies as Catholic, has less than zero population growth. To what can that be attributed? Either a) they're the only nationality to have perfected the rhythm method, or b) they use birth control. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 325 Registered: 4-2006 |
Ina- I meant if you are a believer of the religion, you shouldn't be able to pick and choose what you observe. Otherwise you are a hypocrite. To paraphrase the New York Lottery ad " you have to be in it, to win it" meaning your ticket to heaven. That is, if you believe in such things. | ||
| ina Citizen Username: Ina Post Number: 352 Registered: 6-2001 |
Fact, by your definition then a person can't be, say, gay and Catholic. That's certainly how Church doctrine sees it, but the individual person, along with a great many of their fellow believers, doesn't. Your very stringent standards make an enormous number of people hypocrites. Not that there's anything wrong with it. |
