| Author | Message | ||
     Zoesky1 Citizen Username: Zoesky1 Post Number: 1467 Registered: 6-2003  |
From PlanSponsor.com (a website I read for my job): "If stay-at-home moms got a regular paycheck for their daily responsibilities, this year?s check would be 2% larger than last. The latest study of how much compensation "nonworking" moms deserve by consultant Salary.com pegged their 2006 pay at $134,121 up from 2005's $131,471. Not only that, but moms who work outside the home should be entitled to $85,876 annually for the ?mom? portion of their work, in addition to their regular salary, Salary.com said. Psychologist, laundry machine operator, computer operator, and facilities manager are new to this year's list of top 10 mom job responsibilities." OK, where's my $85,876? (How about a bonus for single moms?) Just felt like posting, after a long night last night of commuting, dinner preparation, bedtime-preparing, laundry, toy tidying, toothbrushing-supervising, general nudging toward sleep, lullabies, glass-of-water-fetching, and midnight-nightmare-soothing. Oh well. It's all worth it....!  | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1511 Registered: 2-2005 |
It's a good question. Last year I painted the outside of my house all by myself - I wonder if I'm going to get an extra $7,000 in my tax return?  | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1873 Registered: 10-2004 |
At least your job is rewarding. That's better than most of us non-SAHs can say. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 214 Registered: 2-2006 |
Zoesky - I hear u. I have been doing this for 17 years. I kind of get annoyed (or maybe the correct word is jealous) when people who are single tell me they had such a hard day at work and are burned out. I hop on the train at 7:23AM and take the 7:30PM home. The moment I get home I start dinner, clean up after two kids, throw at least 2 loads of laundry in and either vaccum or do a once over on one room. Both of my kids went away for 2 weeks last summer and I was amazed at the time I had to myself. You know free time, me-time, mellon time or whatever you want to call it...By the beginning of the second week I couldn't wait for the kids to get back cause I really missed them. Wow I better get a hobby cause they will be gone in 3 years...sigh | ||
| Virtual It Girl Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 4376 Registered: 5-2001 |
Since I now know I do well finiancially I don't feel so bad about the $100 sandals I just received via UPS. Boy, this is exhausting! | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 229 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hey virtual ... good for you | ||
| Virtual It Girl Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 4379 Registered: 5-2001 |
I hope no one found that offensive. I am a non-salaried SAHM. It's nice to know I'm worth something! | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 232 Registered: 2-2006 |
No not at all but what do you live on for christ sake. | ||
| Zoesky1 Citizen Username: Zoesky1 Post Number: 1470 Registered: 6-2003 |
On a more serious note, this is worth checking out: http://www.momsrising.org/petition/familyfriendly?a=1&r=1710&id=7473-6438192-qKY kzE58kN4rZb8lmGPbGg&t=4 | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1201 Registered: 5-2003 |
Housework is work. Child care is work. Wives and mothers who stay at home should receive salaries from their spouses. People don't fully appreciate services for which they do not have to pay. And to answer your question, yes Mr. Lizziecat pays me a salary. It was negotiated when I agreed to leave paid employment in order to help care for a grandchild. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 302 Registered: 4-2006 |
But then there would be a Mom Tax.  | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14103 Registered: 1-2003  |
Lizziecat, is it OK with you if the salary is paid in the form of taking care of living expenses? If the salary is paid in cash (or check), does it have an effect on taxes? My understanding is that legally, when two people are married, any money either spouse makes during the marriage is collectively owned. And any property acquired during the marriage is jointly owned. This is what current divorce law is based on. I think your arrangement is fine, but I'm not sure I see why every stay-at-home spouse should insist on it. And I agree that housework and child rearing is work. It's very serious work, and also very demanding (and rewarding). And what of couples where one spouse makes significantly more money than the other? Should the bigger earner write paychecks to the other? | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 249 Registered: 2-2006 |
Lizzicat: You opened a can of worms there... All the guys are gonna jump on your back and frankly all of us single parents are going to think you are spoiled. Frankly, I would love to have a guy (and his check) coming home to us at the end of a day. In my case and all other single parents' case we bring home the check, cook the dinner, do the cleaning and the rearing and nobody pays us or puts a roof over our heads. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14107 Registered: 1-2003 |
Bajou, your post would be more accurate if you made it gender neutral. All the people earning more than their spouses (spice?) are gonna jump on her back. There are families with mothers who work outside the home and stay-at-home fathers. And there are single custodial fathers, too. I was one, for three or four years. And there are also divorced parents who live entirely off of child support and alimony. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 252 Registered: 2-2006 |
Tom: Go and take a break and READ my post. I never said anything like: "All the people earning more than their spouses (spice?) are gonna jump on her back". I said: "All the guys are gonna jump on your back and frankly all of us single parents are going to think you are spoiled." And never said that there aren't families with mothers who work outside the home and stay-at-home fathers or that there are no single custodial fathers, too. I simply said: In my case and all other single parents case we bring home the check, cook the dinner, do the cleaning and the rearing and nobody pays us or puts a roof over our heads. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14109 Registered: 1-2003 |
Your use of the word "guys" made me think that you're following the general trend. I'm a bit sensitive to generalizations about father and mother roles, particularly when people imply that men are not nurturing or capable of raising children. Not that you implied that. You said guys are going to jump on her back, so I assume you said "guys" because they are often the major breadwinners. I think a wife who is the major breadwinner would have the same disagreement with Lizziecat's position as a husband. Did I say it more clearly now? I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 308 Registered: 4-2006 |
Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus  | ||
| Zoesky1 Citizen Username: Zoesky1 Post Number: 1474 Registered: 6-2003 |
FYI, Bijou, I am a single (divorced) parent. | ||
| campbell29 Citizen Username: Campbell29 Post Number: 426 Registered: 4-2002 |
I work both inside the house as a mom of a small child and an infant, and inside the house again, as an accountant. There are pluses and minuses. The pluses are that I get to spend time at home with the little people, and still get to make my own money and have contact with adults and intellectual stimulation. The minuses are that there is no division between work and down-time and not too many people appreciate that I wear two hats, both of which are full time jobs. I could neither give up my work or feel comfortable putting a baby in a full time daycare situation. Fortunately because of the nature of my work I can do both. However, there are certainly times that I wish I could devote myself fully to one or the other path. Because I am at home, my husband feels like he is the only one working and has never gotten up with a hungry baby in the middle of the night, taken a sick kid to the doctor or in any way inconvenienced himself for child care responsibility. Likewise, my clients expect me to be available when they call or want something done, regardless of whether I need to drive a carpool, go to baby playgroup or whatever. No matter what one chooses, to a certain extent the grass will always be greener. I sometimes wish that I could just go to work and have the day be over, there's something to be said for not having to worry about work barfing all over your bed at 3am. There's also a great reward to being able to take your child to the playground and watching her climb for the first time. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3497 Registered: 3-2004  |
Well, campbell29, there's something for you to consider. I felt the way you did, for at least seventeen years. Now, my husband has been "forced into retirement" which means let go for being too old, given a small lump sum as his "retirement pay" and I am the breadwinner. Now, I send my sons to college, pay the bills which my husband and I have for years, been whittling down to manageable amounts, and generally keep things going. If my health holds out, we'll put our sons through college and have a little for the down times to come. I could not have done this if I hadn't kept working, building experience and resume, in the younger days. My point is, keep at it. You'll find it's worth it. Think of this when you wonder why. | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1202 Registered: 5-2003 |
I don't mean to open a can of worms. I just think that work is work, whether it is done inside the home or outside of it, and work deserves to be compensated. What works for me and my spouse won't necessarily work for other people. I am not "spoiled;" for more than thirty years I held full or part-time jobs outside my home, in addition to doing housework, cooking, cleaning, shopping, laundry and child care, as well as lawn and garden maintenance. My husband and I managed without any outside help until we both started to feel too decrepit to do some of the harder stuff. We painted and plastered and carpentered, too. I think that the partner who stays at home should receive some financial compensation the use of which is totally at his or her discretion--to spend or save or whatever. It fosters dignity and equality, and also security in case the domestic partnership ends unexpectedly due to separation, desertion or divorce. Everybody should have his or her own bank account and credit history. That way you won't end up destitute, scrambling to feed and shelter yourself and children if your spouse takes off--and I have seen that happen. My spouse and I have always maintained separate bank accounts and credit cards, as well as a pooled joint account for household/family expenditures. My mother gave me that advice, and that's the advice I passed along to my sons. And I will pass it along to my grandchildren. And, Bajou, I sympathize with the difficulties that single parents face. I suggest that you pay yourself a salary for what you do at home--put it into a separate account, or a jar or a piggy bank, and use it for something that you want or need or save it for use in the future. | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 2729 Registered: 9-2003  |
I agree with what Lizziecat said about both spouses having some money to call their own, without answering for it, and a credit history. Being a little older, I do recall starting in the '70's what happened to housewives who didn't in either the event of divorce or being widowed. Not pretty. Even today, where I have the paycheck and cover most everything, and my husband has a modest disability payment, we each have our own disposable income. Very subtle the ways money can affect relationships, but often very real. And I do wish the trumped up battle between SAHs and working outside the home people would just stop. For most people, the reality is that most will spend time in both camps over a lifetime, and possible even while raising children. We never know what will happen. | ||
| campbell29 Citizen Username: Campbell29 Post Number: 427 Registered: 4-2002 |
I don't know how necessary it is to have a "paycheck" per se from the spouse. I guess I would kind of feel like I was in some sort of feudal relationship where I, the loyal vassal, petitioned the lord for money. I basically spend what I want out of our joint accounts and don't feel any need to justify what and where I spend what I consider, my money also. I also don't expect my spouse to have to justify what he spends money on. Both of us know how much money there is, and are adult enough to use reasonable judgement on recreational spending. We also both have our own separate retirement accounts in our own names. I would just rather not bicker over who spent 200 bucks on an outfit and who spent 200 bucks on golfing when neither amount is going to break the bank. | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 2734 Registered: 9-2003 |
Really agree on the last point. A lot of times, people don't set up the separate accounts when only one is drawing an acutal paycheck. One way or another, I think most of us like to have an amount of money for which we need not account to anyone. | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 1516 Registered: 4-2004  |
I couldn't afford Mrs. Weir even part-time. It's a good thing she loves us, 'cos I could never do what she does each and every day...excuse me while I go tell her so... | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 1517 Registered: 4-2004 |
Okay, I'm back. She says if I really mean it, cook dinner tonight. Good thing I shopped this morning! | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1818 Registered: 5-2001 |
Lizziecat,
Well said and spot-on. I used to work for a pay check - I LOVE staying home with the kids, pets and house, and I don't feel underpaid at all. The first few years of house, kids, etc. we had some trouble juggling who does what, but since I don't work out of the house, I made that my job and things run well. I have flexible hours, I garden, cook, paint (walls, not canvas), walk with friends - it's a nice arrangement. I don't miss working for a paycheck at all. When I had a business, most of the profit was eaten up by babysitters and stress. | ||
| Virtual It Girl Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 4382 Registered: 5-2001 |
Brett, I think that's very sweet! My husband knows how important I am as a SAHM in our family. He doesn't give me what I would equate to an allowance, but trusts me with our money. We also put money into a retirement account for me. I feel much more comfortable with our arrangement than if I got a set amount each week. We're both fairly sensible about $ (the hundred dollar sandals are because I need good shoes or my feet hurt) and are flexible about our responsibilities in and out of the home. When we got married we merged our accounts (we were young and had not much anyway) and neither of us has ever felt that was not the right choice for us. It's interesting to read what works for other couples. I don't feel the least bit taken advantage of with what I've got though, during financially good times or bad. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14113 Registered: 1-2003 |
Lizziecat, now I understand what you're saying. I get it. Thanks to you and to others for explaining. I actually agreed before but didn't know it. The credit report and having a portion of your money that isn't accountable are important. | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1204 Registered: 5-2003 |
Glad I could clarify what I said. | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 1521 Registered: 4-2004 |
VIG- I meant every word. And in our house, I hand the check over to her, minus my weekly expenses. She's the smart one with money! | ||
| Virtual It Girl Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 4385 Registered: 5-2001 |
Brett, my husband is the same way and that works for us too. I told my husband about this thread last night...it's nice to appreciate each other! | ||
| Jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 744 Registered: 1-2006  |
So if you are going to assign monetary value to raising your children and expect payment as a stay at home parent, then with two parents working, do they pay each other to do the parenting and housework? "Can I do some extra shifts in the kitchen to cover the cost of my sandals." And, "I would love to spend more time with my kids, but it just doesn't pay as well as the bank." How about this: pool all the money, make budget decisions as a family, no one who is a family member gets paid for taking care of another family member. (This includes siblings babysitting and chores -- these are family responsibilities, not employment opportunities.) And everyone cleans up what's in front of them. J.B. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14165 Registered: 1-2003 |
JB did you read the above messages? The arguments for a separate credit history and some discretionary money are fairly compelling. No one is advocating an adversarial relationship between spice (which is my plural for spouse). | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1209 Registered: 5-2003 |
All good, Jersey Boy, but what happens if one partner unilaterally decides to opt out of the family? Please bear with me, because I have seen women--middle class stay at home wives and mothers--whose spouses left them without warning, taking the bank accounts, credit cards and children's college funds. These women--and their children--were literally destitute until they were granted financial settlement as part of a divorce proceeding. Some of them were without funds even after child support and/or alimony was determined by the court because the former spouse either disappeared or stopped working entirely or simply refused to pay up. I remember one woman who had to clean offices at night in order to feed her children while her husband was out buying Victoria's Secret goodies for his new girlfriend on the joint credit card for which his ex-wife was responsible. Another woman was forced out of her home because hubby wanted his new girlfriend to move in. Women can also be faced with financial disaster in the event of the death of a spouse. The bank accounts are inaccessible until the estate is settled; the credit cards are maxed out; the kids' tuition isn't paid, etc. Which is why I feel that a stay at home spouse--whether male or female--should be paid a salary as a means of providing the dignity of a discretionary fund for the present and the safety of a fall-back in the event of a future calamity. And the credit history should be separate so that each spouse is responsible for his or her own debts. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 254 Registered: 2-2006 |
There is nothing wrong with seperate accounts but frankly I agree with Jersey Boy. Guess I am old fashioned that way. Lizzicat: I appreciate your posting and that fact that you sympathize with single parents. However you can't really understand what it is like because then you would know that paying myself a "small token salary" to treat myself here and there is totally out of the question. In reality when you are a true single parent who receives less then USD 500.00 in child support for both kids and those kids are now teenagers then you know there has never been a month where USD 20.00 were not spoken for. The notion of "you deserve it" does not apply since most of the single parents I know rarely ever moved up to the major well paying jobs since we were busy with the kids. Frankly I am in a position that will allow me to really contribute to my own retirement when I am done paying for two kids college education in about 6 years from now. | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 2277 Registered: 6-2002 |
I've been reading this thread with some interest and not entirely sure how I felt about it. I still don't. But here are some preliminary thoughts, largely prompted by Jersey Boy. I am a working mom, so it is hard for me to envision myself in the place of a SAHM. I think if I were a SAHM, I would not want to be paid a salary. To me, this would feel like hubby is giving me an "allowance." Even if it's generous, it's carving off only a piece of the family finances for me to have independent control over. I think I'd rather have access to the full family finances with the mutual understanding that if I buy something for myself there will be no questions asked about it. That's how our current finances are run - the money goes into a joint checking account, and we both spend from it as we see fit. Neither of us are big spenders and that works out fine. If one of us has something major to buy, we'll at least mention it to the other, but there is no big discussion over it unless it is something unusually expensive or a joint decision involving the house, kid's camp or activities, etc. I do recognize the situation with SAHMs (in particular) who are dropped by their hubbies for a trophy wife - I've known a few situations like this, too. (can happen to working moms too, and sometimes the economic devastation can be pretty bad for them, too.) That certainly speaks to having a separate bank account and salting away some money just in case. And I definitely, TOTALLY get the point that there is real economic value to the work that is traditionally done by women in the home. This value is often overlooked. There is also value to men's work in the home (the traditional men's chores - DIY stuff, etc) but one is more likely to place a value on it ("we saved $10K by doing the basement remodel on our own"). You don't often see that calculation done for cooking dinner or doing the laundry. But being paid a "salary" almost feels (to me) like being put into a boss/subordinate relationship. I don't think I'd like that at all. It does come down to a power thing - having "no money of your own" clearly makes a lot of women feel powerless. To me, being "given" money by a spouse would make me feel less powerful (I think - I'm not sure). I'm not suggesting that anybody else should have my reaction - it's mine only. | ||
| Virtual It Girl Citizen Username: Shh Post Number: 4397 Registered: 5-2001 |
I agree with you. An old friend of my mom's had a lot of money. Only she knew nothing about it. Not only did her husband have a string of successful businesses, her father left her a nice chunk of change when he passed away. They were married when they were teenagers and had three kids immediately. He worked long hours, but as soon as the kids were old enough the mom and the kids all worked for the business too. He paid her a low salary to work and gave her maybe a total of $300 a week for groceries and stuff. She would complain to my mom about money. She knew there were hundreds of thousands in the bank, but for everything she wanted to buy she had to ask him for money. (Gifts for the grandkids and stuff, not just stuff for her!) When my mother asked her why didn't she just go to the bank to take out some of her own money, she said she couldn't. SHe didn't know what bank or what the account numbers were. This is a 60 year old woman! | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 258 Registered: 2-2006 |
I am in banking and I recently had an incredible experience. We took over some accounts from a person who left the firm and one was considered dormant. Nobody has had contact with the owner but they received their statements monthly so no big deal. Well after 4 years we are required to contact the owner and just check that all is well. An old man answered the phone and was obviously not quite with it. He had no idea what I was saying and finally got frustrated and mad and handed me over to his wife. The lady was very nice and very timid. I explained to her who I was and why I was calling. She was shocked to find out that they had a "JOINT ACCT" with the bank and that there was money in there. They had retired to a very pretty island (expensive too) several years ago and all was well until her husband had a slight stroke and after that "dementia" set in. The wife assumed that the bank account on the island (checking and savings) was all they had left. She was working within that budget but with home care and all she knew she might run into trouble in a couple of years. To avoid this she totally buckeld down on any spending and hadn't spent a dollar on herself in a couple of years. Her husband had always "taken care of the financial side of things" and she had to learn to balance a checkbook at 65. During their entire marriage she never saw any statements and doesn't know the address that they are being mailed to ( I left that alone). She said that her husband would just tell me "Sign her dovie" and that was that. Well when all was told and I made sure I had her triple confirm all kinds of information she asked me what the balance in the account was.....and I was very happy to tell her "in the mid seven figures" (I am in wealth management). | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 2746 Registered: 9-2003 |
One thing that jumps out at me here is the (possibly) generational difference in our perspectives. As 52 year old woman, my perspective is based on what I saw happen to my friends' mothers, many of whom had little knowlege of family finances and didn't have much of a work history. If dumped, or widowed, many were financially devastated. At the same time, it was only in the 70's or so that women started having more equal access to higher paying careers. A lot of my friends and I leapt at those, especially having watched some of our mothers' circumstances. Too, our male peers did have pretty traditional ideas about "their" money. I get the feeling that nowaday, many SAHMs had substantial careers before becoming SAHMS -- AND their husbands grew up with different ideas about family money. It's natural, then, for these younger women (here I'd say the under 40 crowd) to take a different view than do those of us who are older. Their husbands may be way more egalitarian about the family pot, and these women know that they can earn money, get credit cards etc. should they need them. Personally, I still prefer to have some money that only I answer for. And, so does my husband now that he's the SAHD and I'm the primary wage-earner. We have shared accounts and equal access to them, so nobody's utterly in the dark. We did do the 3 accounts thing for a long time: his, mine, household and proportionally put our net into the household account. Doesn't make sense for where we are now, but it did work at the time. |
