| Author | Message | ||
     Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 379 Registered: 4-2006 |
Todd- you have a job? Is it with an extreme democratic organization? | ||
| Cerebrus Maximus Citizen Username: Xtralargebrain Post Number: 44 Registered: 4-2006  |
Memo to Tom Reingold re: your above posting. Tom, when a man goes into a adult bookstore to procure pornography, minimally, "people" already know. The other patrons in the store know and the proprietor knows and the pedestrians out on the sidewalk that saw you go in know and so on... So its already NOT a completely private transaction. What is the big deal if a security camera also captures that transaction? Its terribly ego-centric of you to suggest that people who are the caretakers of this data will somehow use it against YOU. Also, I dont see how a camera recording a relationship that you might be in can possibly be connected to marketing data collection companies. There is simply no correlation. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14188 Registered: 1-2003  |
Are you saying that the government can be trusted if it collects information on our goings about? And the government can be trusted not to pass information to others who crave it? Why would you say that? Because the government is here to help? | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1380 Registered: 10-2005 |
oh who cares....you are monitored alot more in life than you think. How many of you work and play in NYC? If they help deter crime then great. If crime increases in the village without cameras then I wonder what all you naysayers would say then? And Todd, this is an example of your intelligence? "10 bucks says you're a Republican. You're displaying the classic personality traits." Ummm, ok... -SLK | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 1056 Registered: 2-2002 |
Re: New York, -as I said to another person who offered this same shrugging justification, -"So what if you're often watched in the city? This is not New York. It's Maplewood. That's why it's called Maplewood and not New York." Re: "Who cares?" -Actually, thankfully quite a few. Obviously many proponents of cameras are people who have given up, -given up on any notion of freedom. Given up any notion of feeling "safe" except through the easy illusion of safety. Anyone who does not feel safe in Maplewood village now will never ever feel safe there even with the intrusion of cameras watching them. They seem to feel that since the days of "tying your horse up outside the pub" are gone that we should now simply dive head long into.... what? -Still no "safety", (for them) and now the added problem of constant scrutiny by strangers intruding into all our daily lives. -No thankey. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1919 Registered: 10-2004 |
I hate cameras in public. It is Orwellian. I'm 36. | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1523 Registered: 2-2005 |
No one seems to be able to articulate just what form this 'intrusion' is taking. I also note that the question about the difference between the beat cop and the security camera is going unanswered as well. If the answer to the question "why no cameras" is "because!", well, that's fine. I'd love to see security cameras installed downtown - remember the incident last year where a plate-glass window was broken by someone? It would have been nice to have that person (or persons) caught. A small thing, perhaps, but what if things deteriorate further? Just to head off the rather inane chant of "He's a republican, he's a republican" I am not, in fact, a republican. I know this is going to come as a shock to many of you, and I'm sorry. In my own defense, let me say that I'm in favor of the death penalty and harsher/more uncomfortable prisons. I also think police should have the right to beat children, if their parents don't have the common sense to do so. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 870 Registered: 7-2005  |
Next thing you know ...oh god I can see the posts on MOL BLACK MALE BETWEEN 5'4" and 6'3" seen on MOL webcam dealing drugs! It's bad enough we have idiot eyewitnesses already | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 1385 Registered: 7-2004  |
Glock, why does it have to be a black male in your example? What are you trying to say? | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 263 Registered: 2-2006 |
Dear Todd: You wrote: Bajou, sounds like you're the paranoid, afraid-of-everything type who wants complete control. Maybe you'd be more at peace in the midwest? 10 bucks says you're a Republican. You're displaying the classic personality traits who wants complete control. Maybe you'd be more at peace in the midwest? 10 bucks says you're a Republican. You're displaying the classic personality traits! Hate to disappoint you Todd.. I am ,if labeling is necessary, a very liberal democrat. To address the "paranoid, afraid-of-everything type" I spent three weeks in New Orleans after Hurrican Katrina and set up an animal shelter in an all male prison. I worked with inmates who were serving 10 to 30 years. But since you are able to discern so much from my post let me give it a try with yours... You sound like a pretty shallow, know-it-all, judgemental type who sits in his/her office and shoots of e-mails but otherwise doesn't do much for his/her community.... How did I do.... | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 871 Registered: 7-2005 |
well would you prefer MIDDLE EASTERN TERRORIST SPOTTED IN TOWN. I'm saying that when crime happens in these towns...it's immediately attributed to black males, generally in gangs. everyone generalizes and goes on alert for the BLACK GUY IN WHITE VAN It's hardly isolated to these towns though...just flip on the news some time | ||
| gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 343 Registered: 11-2003 |
So Case, it's worth many thousands of dollars and countless manhours to surveil the village for the off chance that we may learn the identity of someone who perhaps accidentally breaks a store window? | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1924 Registered: 10-2004 |
Case, I'm not calling you a Republican by any stretch of the imagination, but I would say that on some issues, you are quite conservative -- especially on privacy issues. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 265 Registered: 2-2006 |
No but its worth it to see who came running out of the Kings Alley or the underpass when something bad happened. Two weeks ago a Maplewood Police Officer went from place to place to ask (in my case I was in Centanni's) the owner if a specific looking guy came running in... Why would you think that an officer is going to sit there and watch it. It is the equivalent of the store cameras in Kings, Pathmark, the movie theater or the post office. This is totally normal in Europe...I don't know what the big deal is. You can be traced by your Metro card, your credit card, your e-z pass...the key is that the information can only be used through a supoena like everything else. What I find so fascinating is that people really think they are so important that some schmuk or the government is going to watch every move they make. Get over it ...you are just one of many | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 1391 Registered: 7-2004 |
All terrorists aren't from the middle east either. I can't believe that people are letting you get away with saying that. Usually they would be all over someone for a racist comment like that. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1925 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bajou, but the record is there PERMANENTLY for their usage (whatever they intend it to be down the road) whenever they want no questions asked. As I watch our country become less Democratic I get worried about what could happen in the future. All you need to do is refer to the past to get a sense of what could happen (China, USSR, Germany, to name a few examples). Just because x isn't a crime now, who is to say that someone won't eventually refer to those tapes to see who committed x crime now that is is illegal. I'd just as soon nip these sorts of questions/issues in the bud. We haven't needed the cameras up to now. We don't need them now. I resent what they stand for, the ever watching eye, and I don't feel ANY safer with them. Oh yeah and they are a giant waste of money. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 266 Registered: 2-2006 |
Well not for nothing but if you are worried because you are doing something in public that could be considered a crime in the near future (like the next five years cause they are not going to store tapes for years and years to come) then that's your problem. I recently walked through the village with my dear friend MEM and we almost got stoned by default because somebody was smoking a joint right in front of the village trattoria. That is not necessary, and considering that it was 2 PM completly rude. I got no beef with the weed..I got beef with the kid seriously thinking we are all to old to know what he is doing. Have the decency and hide like we all had to do when we were young. | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 1057 Registered: 2-2002 |
This is not a republican vs democrat issue, (certainly not in Maplewood as 4 of the 5 present democratic TC members are in favor of some sort of cameras), and there is no need to cast it as such as it only becomes a distraction. Meanwhile, Case: Many of us have well articulated what form of an intrusion this is. If you cannot understand that the very presence of a camera is de-facto an intrusion then I feel that we cannot make you understand the objection. A camera is not simply a little box. It is a peephole through which strangers are actively watching and recording you talk, walk, shop minding your own business. If you do not find that objectionable in-and-of itself then you may well never do so. If you view that argument as simply "because" then we must conclude that you and others do not pocess the automatic sense of revulsion of such an idea though I would hope that it could be rekindled. Frankly, I continue to be appalled at the number of people to whom what should be an innate, and in my view, -highly American personal sense of dignity and freedom needs to have this "explained" to. Or worse, -those who profess to understand it but nonetheless irredeemably toss it's value aside, in exchange for a transient facade of "safety" to temporarily placate those who will never feel safe. Re: Beat cop vs cameras. If you insist on making the comparison as if it were one or the other I will answer as I have done before. Personally I would MUCH rather have a beat cop around, -especially in the village if one is so needed. An actual person, not a recoding device run by people I can't see as though I am a constant suspect living in a fish bowl instead of a small town with my friends, family and neighbors. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 268 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hey steel who sounds paranoid now..."not a recoding device run by people I can't see as though I am a constant suspect living in a fish bowl". So do you shop is Kings or Fresh Fields? Do you use the Post Office or the train station (including the parkinglot)? Well you better stop cause they record your every move too and the people who have access to these tapes are not trained and backround checked police officers you are held fully responsible for their actions.. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 269 Registered: 2-2006 |
OOps meant "who are held fully responsible for their actions".. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1926 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bajou, I feel that you are being short sighted. Just because you feel that those tapes are only valuable for five years, doesn't mean that that is true. The images can be digitally stored and last forever. In the future technology will most certainly change making this whole storage issue moot. But you gave away our rights already. No turning back. Sorry. I also resent that you are accusing me of crimes that I didn't commit yet or insinuating that I am worried that I might be the sort to commit crimes. That's rude. Just because I don't like cameras watching me doesn't make me a criminal. | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 1058 Registered: 2-2002 |
Dear Bajou, I don't give a crap if you think it "sounds" paranoid or not. I have described it exactly as it is for what it is. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 276 Registered: 2-2006 |
Dear Alley - I was answering to your post "Just because x isn't a crime now, who is to say that someone won't eventually refer to those tapes to see who committed x crime now that is is illegal". Not saying that you commited a crime but you were worried that something that is legal now was changed to become a crime. Dear Steel - you should re-phrase "I have described it exactly as it is for what it is for me, Steel. That way the rest of the world might be fine with it. By the by still no answer from either of you about avoiding those scary, intimidating cameras that took away your freedom to shop in privacy. STRANGE HOW SOME PEOPLE FIND THAT THEIR PRIVACY AND PERSONAL FREEDOM HAS BEEN INFRINGED UPON BY PUTTING UP SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS BUT I AM SUPPOSED TO BE OK BEING TOLD BY MY GOVERNMENT THAT I AM FREE TO BUY MY PACK OF CIGARETTES (PLUS 60% SALES TAX) BUT I CAN'T SMOKE THEM ANYWHERE. EVEN WORSE HOW ABOUT YOU OWN A BAR, YOU SMOKE AND THE GOVERNMENT IS TELLING YOU THAT YOU ARE NO LONGER ALLOWED TO SMOKE ON YOUR OWN PROPERTY AND YOU CANNOT EVEN MAKE THE DECISION TO STAY A SMOKING BAR AND NOT LOOSE INCOME (WHICH ALMOST ALL REPORTED IN THE FIRST TWO WEEKS). PERSONAL FREEDOM MY BUTT, THEY CAN FILM ME ANYTIME SMOKING MY CIG OUTSIDE..OH WAIT BUT I MIGHT BE TOLD REAL SOON THAT I HAVE TO MOVE 25 FEET ON TOP OF BEING OUTSIDE. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1935 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'm not worried about what I'm doing. I'm worried about how the information will be used by others. | ||
| gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 344 Registered: 11-2003 |
Personally, I don't care about people smoking in bars...but what does that have to do with video surveillance? Unless, perhaps surveillance video will lead to your arrest for standing too close to the bar while smoking. Does that make you feel better about your lost smoking liberties? | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 283 Registered: 2-2006 |
gj1: I feel it is an infringement on my personal freedom. Especially since the state hasn't stopped the sale or the 60% tax on the pack. Oh yes and I guess it is ok to be a gambler and get cancer but god forbid a regular Joe is not stopped in his/her tracks. It also seems funny that they leave the cigar bars alone. Oh yeah that's right politicians like to have a cigar here or there. So let's leave the cigar bars alone and lets leave the casino's alone but definately everybody else needs to stop right now cause it's bad for you ...GIVE me a brake. Yes I smoke. Yes I know it is not good for me (neither are alot of other things). The government has just deceided to no longer sell soda in schools. Hey soda has a lot of calories but why aren't the parents asked? We are being told. So who knows next we stop serving alcohol since it hurts alot of people too. Drunk driving, spousal or child abuse (most domestic violence is tied in with alcohol consumption on the offenders part) etc.. | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1527 Registered: 2-2005 |
I'm hard-pressed to see what anyone COULD do with tapes of people walking on the street in Maplewood, quite honestly. I never thought about supermarkets, Wal-Mart, Sears, etc... but it's an interesting point: what about THOSE tapes? Do you avoid those places because of the incredible intrusion into your personal right to be invisible?  If you consider the truly massive amount of information we're talking about, I seriously doubt if the images will be stored for any amount of time (a month? two?). Even so, what does it matter? Like it or not, your movements can be tracked electronically today. Remember the EZ-Pass story about the guy cheating on his wife, caught when his toll records ratted him out? I'm sure there are numerous examples. It seems that the problem people have isn't with being watched (as in the case of a beat cop), but that the tapes can be stored and reviewed later. Ummm... OK. That does sound terrible. I can't figure out WHY anyone would want to review a 4 year old 'street tape', and I can't quite see the impact if anyone should choose to do so... but I'll leave it for others to worry about. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 285 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi Case: Well written and for once we agree on something. HMMM were is my red pen to mark my calendar. Considering the equipment most government offices use (not CIA obivously) like the local police or the fire department I wouldn't be surprised to seethe using actual film spools to store the data. Next time you pay a parking ticket take a good look at the computer equipment they have to work with. Anyway ...it's good to disagree on things otherwise we would have really turned into the proverbial herd of sheep. | ||
| MSO55 Citizen Username: Mso55 Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2006 |
Bajou: Are you sure that the kid outside the trattoria wasn't smoking a rolled cigarette? Wow, in front of the trattoria...I didn't know kids were THAT stupid. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 289 Registered: 2-2006 |
MSO55 - oh no my friend that was pot..no question about it. Had temporarily fond flashbacks to my youth. Pretty much everybody that walked by and got a wiff stopped dead and looked around. | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1531 Registered: 2-2005 |
So... the NSA is tracking telephone calls now. How interesting! I guess we'll all switch to US Mail now? | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5095 Registered: 9-2001  |
Shooting on South Orange Avenue brings it closer to home... Gangs and Guns, just a few blocks from S.O. police headquarters. If our friends in South Orange were smart, they would have had a camera at that location. Look at the front page of today's News Record. Where better than where you can see people hang out for food, beer, and bullets? What a shame, the shooter is still on the lam... Hang in there a little longer Springfield Avenue, helps on the way in the form of new video cameras. We know we can't always catch them red handed, but at least we will know who we're looking for when we don't... | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1946 Registered: 10-2004 |
Case, just because at this moment you can not imagine a use for the information on the tapes doesn't mean that couldn't be useful. It just states that you have no creativity or are unwilling to extrapolate future uses of this information. Imagine for a moment that their is a parade or political rally on the street. Nothing illegal about that now. But when it comes time to ruin someones career, jail someone for being involved or even merely close by those events and those tapes get used as evidence. If McCarthyism hadn't happened in this country, or I didn't see how the Government can control/manipulate our media outlets, how fascist/communist governments like Germany or China cared little or nothing about people's rights and how there was very little explanation or evidence necessary to jail someone, well then I might not believe that this information could be used in some nefarious manner. But I do believe we need to learn from history. People can't be trusted. Our nation is amazing because we have such well thought out rights, and I do feel that my rights are being trampled upon. I repeat that just because you don't feel that we have the technology to store or easily process huge amounts of this type information now doesn't mean that we won't be able to quite soon. But meanwhile because you are too short-sighted to see how that could one day be possible, you willingly give away your rights. You allow them to set precadence that this sort of invasions into our privacy is acceptable. If you give them this right now, we will never get it back I can promise you that. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 290 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thank you ajc.. that's exactely what I meant. Nobody gives a damm what time Joe Shmoe got off the train but if I guy holds up a store then everybody wants to look at the security camera. Most commercial insurance company's require store to have these cameras. So you all deal with it every day of your life already. They are in your schools, the stores, your offices, your doctors waiting room...so what's the big deal if they are on the street??? | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1947 Registered: 10-2004 |
AJC: Let me ask you this. How much crime is made by the petty criminal on the street vs. the amount of crime made in the board rooms and offices across the country? If we MUST have cameras I would rather that we spend our money wisely and get the most bang for our bucks and have them pointed straight into the White House, Halliburton and Enron offices. Put them in all of the CEO's offices across this country. Now that would be the FIRST PLACE we should start putting cameras if we really gave a damn about stopping crime in this country. | ||
| gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 346 Registered: 11-2003 |
Wow Baj! I didn't realize surveillance cameras had the ability to smell.  | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1948 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bajou: What is the big deal? Well, there is a huge difference between cameras in stores vs ones in public/government owned spaces. Do you think this crap through before you post it? The camera in the 7-11 is put there because it is a privately owned store. There is a note on the door that states, this property is videotaped, please be aware of this and don't enter if you don't want to be taped. To put cameras on the street would require the government to be watching us, because no one really owns the outside streets. One day our towns will be privately owned and run by corporations, and we will pay fees (similar to our township taxes) to the privately owned and run security companies which will be their policemen. And then you will get your wishes. I just hope for your sake that the people running the corporation that owns the town where you live isn't as corrupt as Kenneth Lay & George Bush or that the security forces are friendlier than the ones that roughed up Abner Louima. Because at that point if something horrible happens to you and yours, well I'm not too sure what your options you will have then. You sold off your rights wholesale. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 291 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thank you ajc.. that's exactely what I meant. Nobody gives a damm what time Joe Shmoe got off the train but if a person holds up a store then everybody wants to look at the security cameras. Most commercial insurance company's require store to have these cameras. So you all deal with it every day of your life already. They are in your schools, the stores, your offices, your doctors waiting room...so what's the big deal if they are on the street??? | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 292 Registered: 2-2006 |
Oh and by the way the police can use the cameras on private property too. All it requires is a subpoena. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14215 Registered: 1-2003 |
That's the fundamental point, bajou. A subpoena or warrant means the police went through some trouble to show that monitoring is warranted. They should have to go through that trouble. Not all monitoring is warranted by default. |
