| Author | Message | ||
     Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 294 Registered: 2-2006 |
Information from the cameras on the street cannot be used against you unless the evidence has been subpoenaed. Just like you telefone records to reveal 911 calls have to be subpoenaed from your provider company even though the police couls use their receival records. Frankly I consider the police to be on my side not an enemy. These guys put their life on the line just like the firemen do. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14216 Registered: 1-2003  |
Generally, the police are on our side. But we need protections from them for the cases when they're not. That's why we have separation of powers. If you wouldn't want one person to be cop, judge, jury, and executioner, why? In theory, they're all good people, on the side of truth, justice, and the American way. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5099 Registered: 9-2001  |
Alleygater, get real first and then maybe we can talk about it. Murder, gangs, guns, and members of the Bloods are not about petty criminals on our local streets... | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1953 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bajou, and your phone records can be used against you EVEN without a subpoena. You can be spied upon EVEN without a subpoena. I don't trust our Government. In theory they are elected to work for us. But they have PROVEN time and time again to be working for themselves. How about the guy who just got out of jail after decades for being framed (he was just the patsy) by a cop on the mob's payroll? What's your solution there? Maybe if there were more cameras in our homes we could prove that he was innocent. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1954 Registered: 10-2004 |
AJC: I guess that is the difference between your and my outlook on life. I am being quite real. The problems ALWAYS start at the top and trickle down. Hell, isn't that your parties economic platform for god's sake? You want less street crimes, start by jailing some of the crooks that are stealing BILLIONS of dollars. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 396 Registered: 4-2006 |
Seems to me you really need the surveillance camera at the corner of Ridgewood and Hickory  | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 397 Registered: 4-2006 |
Alleygater- " I hate cameras in public. It is Orwellian. I am 36. " sounds like a Match.com profile to me. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 298 Registered: 2-2006 |
Dear Alleygater: See i personally would prefer to know that the camera on the corner will prove that I did not commit the crime...even if the mob-paid detective said so. So you still did not answer my other question .... are you going to stop frequenting all the other places that record you??? | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1960 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bajou, I go to 7-11s. You don't answer any of my questions. I just assumed you were being rhetorical. I can make a decision to choose to go to those places. I don't have to. But I didn't get a choice on whether cameras should or shouldn't be in those places because it is privately owned. I assume when I am someone ELSES privately owned space that I MAY IN FACT be recorded. I would assume/prefer though that there was a sign letting me know whether they were or were not doing so, as they do in most elevators. I would be upset to find out that there are cameras in the toilet of the 7-11 (or any privately owned bathroom), but have to wonder how long until even this is the norm. I would hope that the people will have some say if on the decision to put up cameras in public. I hope that they do not do this. Will I go outside if they put up cameras in public spaces? I go outside now and I know there are cameras already. I just don't like it is all. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1961 Registered: 10-2004 |
Factvs: I wrote that to answer Greenies question at the beginning of this thread. She wrote:I'm mildly curious to know if there is an age factor in opinions on this. Some of us grew up reading 1984 in HS Lit class, horrifed that a day like this could ever come. Others of us know nothing but the internet and think nothing of websites streaming bedroom, bathroom, whatever, activities of total strangers. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1962 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bajou, the only way to prove that you did not commit the crime is for there to be cameras everywhere. I suspected that is what you wanted. I could do without that much security. Thanks anyway. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 301 Registered: 2-2006 |
Alleygater: I hear you I just feel that facts (not the handle) will do away with he said she said and the witness has a past cases. To All: By the way... google your own name once in a while... you'd be amazed what you find. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1965 Registered: 10-2004 |
The cops word means more than mine. This is proven already. Also, when it comes time to name names, you'd be surprised what gets fabricated. Even facts can be fabricated in the right hands. Just google this search string for an example of this that concerns many people in this country: "problems diebold voting". I don't think of this as paranoia. I would just like to cut off at the pass any future potential sources of problems and abuses. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 304 Registered: 2-2006 |
See the cops word wouldn't count so much if there is a camera recording the truth. Unless you fear that the entire police department is ready to turn bad.. but that is unlikely since we know from the movies .. there is at least always one good cop on your side. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5106 Registered: 9-2001 |
Alleygater, I guess you just don't know the difference between what the top or the bottom is, what's up or down, in or out, or whatever... I'm a street guy for the past 46 years. In my years on the road I've been in and out of more police stations then most cops, and have spent more time driving back out of driveways then most people have driving forward, and I’ve seen more crazy things out on our public streets then most people would believe. Listen pal, once you come face to face with one of these real life and death situations, get a gun or knife stuck in your face a few times, or seen someone run down by a hit and run driver, then maybe you'll realize that the police need all the help they can get. What happens in corporate America is one thing, what happens on our streets is quite a different matter. I hope you never have to learn about it the hard way… | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1971 Registered: 10-2004 |
I would argue that the world has been a horrible place because it's been top driven from the start. Level the playing field and I suspect you will have a few less knives in your face. I have no problems with supporting the police, but I don't need to give them permission to record me and use it as they please. I don't get the sense that crime is so rampant in our area that we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Putting cameras up in some of our streets (to begin with) to me is only the start of infringement upon our rights. | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1535 Registered: 2-2005 |
Alleygater, Your post is so full of half-truths and flat-out nonsense that I don't even know how to respond. Of course the technology is available to store images forever... but why? Why would we do this? If you're worried about the USA turning into a police state, I advise you to emigrate. Otherwise, take a deep breath and try to relax. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1975 Registered: 10-2004 |
Case, I'm not sure where the half-truths are. If you are kind enough to point them out specifically I might know where to start in replying to you. On the other hand, I would be happy to just brush off your comments and call you a big fat liar too. It's one way to undermine someone I suppose. A crappy one, but one nevertheless. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 876 Registered: 7-2005  |
AJC, corporate America is responsible for what happens in the streets. | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1541 Registered: 2-2005 |
Case, just because at this moment you can not imagine a use for the information on the tapes doesn't mean that couldn't be useful. It just states that you have no creativity or are unwilling to extrapolate future uses of this information. I have no creativity, or is it that I don't have paranoid fantasies? Imagine for a moment that their is a parade or political rally on the street. Nothing illegal about that now. But when it comes time to ruin someones career, jail someone for being involved or even merely close by those events and those tapes get used as evidence. If McCarthyism hadn't happened in this country, or I didn't see how the Government can control/manipulate our media outlets, how fascist/communist governments like Germany or China cared little or nothing about people's rights and how there was very little explanation or evidence necessary to jail someone, well then I might not believe that this information could be used in some nefarious manner. But I do believe we need to learn from history. People can't be trusted. Our nation is amazing because we have such well thought out rights, and I do feel that my rights are being trampled upon. Jail someone for being involved in a parade? Barney had better watch his •••; if they ever outlaw big purple dinosaurs he's in a lot of trouble. Of course, for the law to affect someone in an old video tape, the law would have to be written retroactively. Does that happen very often? I repeat that just because you don't feel that we have the technology to store or easily process huge amounts of this type information now doesn't mean that we won't be able to quite soon. But meanwhile because you are too short-sighted to see how that could one day be possible, you willingly give away your rights. You allow them to set precadence that this sort of invasions into our privacy is acceptable. If you give them this right now, we will never get it back I can promise you that. Very dramatic. I don't feel we have the technology to store huge amounts of video tape? Hmmm... I think we do. I THINK IT'S CALLED TAPE!  We can't process this kind of information now? Again, yes we can - pattern matching technology has been around for years and was tested out at sporting events, matching known criminals with attendees. Perhaps that's a violation of a murderer or a rapist's right to privacy, hmmm? The rest of the post seems to be more of a paranoid rant than anything else... but consider this: you don't have as much privacy as you think you do, cameras notwithstanding. Have you considered moving to Canada, or the woods? | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 407 Registered: 4-2006 |
Alleygater- just joking, but it did sound a bit like a personal profile, no? Glock 17- "Corporate America is responsible for what happens in the streets" so I guess its "Coca Cola" and not the "Bloods"? I always knew there was something in that special recipe ! People who expect privacy in today's world and with today's technology are incredibly naive. You would have to live out in Antartica, never been to a doctor, never used a bank, never filed anything with any unit of government, or never been born to escape how pervasive personal information gathering has become. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1388 Registered: 10-2005 |
So Glock, now you are trying to convince everyone the Irvington/Newark rock dealers are financially supported by Nabisco? Lordy lordy... -SLK | ||
| TomR Citizen Username: Tomr Post Number: 1096 Registered: 6-2001 |
Just thinking out loud here in Maplewood. While Alleygater has seemingly engaged in a bit of hyperbole, we really should keep in mind that the only way someone like Joe McCarthy gets through the door is because they always look and act just like we do. Until, that is, they go over the top: but then, they're already through the door. Just some food for thought. TomR | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 878 Registered: 7-2005 |
You both missed the point, because you chose to. I'll post later in the day when I'm not so tired. | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2326 Registered: 7-2003 |
The second someone’s kid gets snatched off the street, you will all wonder why you ever thought the cameras were a bad idea. | ||
| thoughtful Citizen Username: Thoughtful Post Number: 189 Registered: 6-2001 |
Now who's engaging in hyperbole? The argument for the cameras seems to be that it doesn't matter if the government monitors us or not because we're already being monitored. That seems like a pretty lame argument. And the behavior caught on camera doesn't necessarily have to be illegal for us to harm us somewhere down the line: what if insurance companies, for example, work out a deal to get access to the tapes and they begin looking for people who engage in activities that the insurance companies don't like? Or what if someone decides to do some research on someone's behavior as caught on tape as cross-referenced with, say, every phone call they've ever made? Or what if someone is caught on tape going into an abortion clinic and that tape is used against that person later when she decides to run for office? Of course, no government would use information to smear someone, so I must be engaging in paranoid fantasizing. But paranoia does not mean that someone isn't out to get me, as the saying goes. I'm fascinated by how the people who support the ideas of cameras are accusing those who oppose them of doing something wrong when they demand privacy. How soon before we all have to build glass houses? After all, if I'm not doing anything illegal in my house, I shouldn't have a problem with that, right? | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2327 Registered: 7-2003 |
well, unless you walk around in the nude | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1545 Registered: 2-2005 |
I think everyone has the right to privacy... in private places, such as the home. When you're in public, however, it seems to be a much different situation. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1987 Registered: 10-2004 |
Case, you make fun of my post because you can't prove your accusation that what I wrote is full of half truths. I don't think it is paranoia when precadent has been set. If the governments around the world (and even in the US) hadn't abused their powers I might not be concerned. I'm sorry you didn't like my parade example. These sorts of things DO happen and have happened before. We need to make sure they don't happen here. My point is that laws get reinterpretted and changed. This process isn't always done democratically. I believe the President of our country just adjusted his interpretation of spying on the US citizens, declassifying secret documents, and tracing people's phone calls ALL without any notification or authorization. No warrants needed. I AM CONCERNED. Just because at this moment it seems unfathomable to you that laws might be written retroactively doesn't mean it hasn't happened, or could not happen. Let's stand up, let our voices be heard, tell them to stop meddling with our privacy, and then it will REMAIN unfathomable to you AND me both. I actually said, store huge amounts of INFORMATION. Tape is the word you used. Tape as was noted earlier decomposes. Data can be easily transferred and stored indefinitely. Thanks for proving my point about how these huge amounts of data can be used and be useful. I understand that it is actually MORE important to have huge amounts of data. The more there is, the more useful it becomes. I was just reading that in regards to the phone number CIA scandal that is going on. Without ALL or nearly all of the nations phone calls, the data becomes dramatically less useful for datamining. I had heard people earlier in this thread state that it's hard to go through all those tapes. And we have nothing to worry about because all that footage becomes useless because there is too much to analyze. AND THAT was what I was referring to when I said that we can't necessarily process that much data. I believe we can and that we will do so even more efficiently as the technology improves. People are only thinking in terms to what we can do now, and not thinking about the future. You think I'm paranoid. If we must sling names at eachother, then I think you are short-sighted. Why don't we just leave it at that. I know that I am being watched and monitored. Enough already. No more. AND YET... There it is in the news. The president is monitoring us even more. Everyday more information leaks out. Its these additional changes that I find unnecessary. Like I said before our town is not so crime ridden that we need to make these changes. Things work in our society. Why do I need to explain or defend why they should NOT change. Why don't you explain to me how our society is broken and NEEDS to change. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1988 Registered: 10-2004 |
So Case, I guess your phone calls that you made in your home aren't private enough for you, huh? | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6144 Registered: 5-2001  |
Alley, I am all for cameras. If you're innocent, and something you did or say got misinterpreted and you got harrassed by the government, get a good lawyer and sue them so you never have to work again. Otherwise, please just try to stop picking your nose in public and reading dirty porn on those park benches. Bayou - That was really good weed by the way. Whose says second hand smoke is bad for you? | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1989 Registered: 10-2004 |
So how am I supposed to sue the President to stop snooping at my phone records? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14233 Registered: 1-2003 |
mem, I think you just said let law enforcement do whatever it likes and let legislatures write any unconstitutional law it wants, because lawsuits are an adequate balance to those abuses of power. Except you're too smart to say that, so what are you really saying? | ||
| thoughtful Citizen Username: Thoughtful Post Number: 190 Registered: 6-2001 |
Mem, That's a good plan, except for that pesky "innocent until proven guilty" thing. What you're suggesting is "guilty until you sue to prove you're innocent." I hope you're not all for that. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6145 Registered: 5-2001 |
Oh please. Why would president bush listen to our phone calls - I'm not even sure that guy knows how to use a phone. Seriously, cameras are there to help deter crime, not snoop on innocent people. This is being taken too far. And if someone has the time and energy to listen to my boring phone coversations they can go to town with it. Phone conversation: "Hi, yeah, work sucks. How was your day? Coming over? Red or white? good see you soon." President bush, sitting there listening to my phone call, "Hmmm, I'm going to mem's house and have me some wine with the girls, but first I'm going to call her boss and tell him what she thinks of her job." Pshaw. (I said pshaw!) | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 314 Registered: 2-2006 |
I clearly remember several fairly recent events: 1. A woman beat the living daylights out of her own child in a parkinglot and got caught by a security camera. Nobody saw it, nobody reported the child being abused before. No school or doctor ever questioned bruising on the child but a vigilant security guard happened to notice it and probably saved that little girl from years of extreme physical abuse. 2. A young girl went missing walking home from school. Nobody saw anything, nobody had a clue where she went. The cops requested security tapes from the different businesses along her way home and low and behold a gas station camera caught the girl being abducted and yanked into a car. The camera showed the plate of the vehicle and the guy was arrested. Now lets say the gas station didn't have a camera ... that guy would still be out there. Or how about the guy who was cruising the school bus stops in South Orange a few years ago and actually managed to grab onto a jacket of a elementary school boy. Thank god the kid had the sense and nerve to unzip his winter jacket and run away before the guy could get him. Still nobody knows who this person was..nobody ever saw the plate info. Would have been nice to get the guy on camera (or his vehicle) and put that bastard away but alas. At least nobody's privacy was disturbed. Sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils or would you like to explain to one of the victims or parents that it is more important that you can walk to your neighbors house unrecorded... Think that one through | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3089 Registered: 5-2004  |
Mem, while you might not have interesting things to say, what about the DNC? (ok, bad example  ) And do you think local law enforcement might be interested in your conversations about weed? Probably not, but would you have the same conversation if you knew the cops were listening? | ||
| K_soze Citizen Username: K_soze Post Number: 195 Registered: 11-2005  |
hmmm, ladies getting together throwing down a couple bottles of wine.....I gotta get me one of those phone taps  | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1992 Registered: 10-2004 |
Once again, we will just ignore McCarthy. Hunting out the Communists and ruining good peoples lives meant nothing. Who cares that it happened. McCarthy would have been happy to have your phone records. He most certainly could have used it to prove with even more certainty that specific individuals were responsible for undermining our society. See right here, on this day he called a known Communist. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6146 Registered: 5-2001 |
Note to add: If I am walking down the street and I get kidnapped, raped and killed, I hope there's a camera there to record it to they catch the guy and he can't do it to someone else's child, sister, mom, etc. again. If my son is walking down the street and gets mugged and beaten, I hope the cameras are there to record that too. This has almost happened to me enough times so that I don't feel safe walking around too many places at night - how fair is that? I would love to have this freedom which has been taken from me - so I look at cameras as a safety measure. I think that's what the intent of cameras are? Hello? |
