| Author | Message | |||
     Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1529 Registered: 2-2005 |
I hope this shouldn't be in the Politics section... ... but I just send a donation to the Minuteman Project. http://www.minutemanproject.com/donations.asp If the discussion here gets as ugly as I expect, it'll be money well spent. | |||
| gettinoffadaroof Citizen Username: Upondaroof Post Number: 694 Registered: 4-2003 |
Sounds like money well spent to me. | |||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5375 Registered: 10-1999  |
I wouldn't send them money. They are scamming you. | |||
| CageyD Citizen Username: Cageyd Post Number: 685 Registered: 6-2003 |
Look like wing-nuts to me. | |||
| Mr. Big Poppa Citizen Username: Big_poppa Post Number: 657 Registered: 7-2004  |
I've increased my stamina. I graduated to the TwoMinuteMan club! | |||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 284 Registered: 2-2006 |
WEll Poppa then Case will officially be known as the minuteman and in the melon case the minutemaid!! | |||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1818 Registered: 12-2003  |
The group isn't registered as a not-for-profit, nor does it say anything about what it plans to do with your money. Money well spent indeed. | |||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1530 Registered: 2-2005 |
It'll be less expensive to help fund these guys than for me to learn Spanish. I've always had a problem learning foreign languages, for some reason. | |||
| gettinoffadaroof Citizen Username: Upondaroof Post Number: 697 Registered: 4-2003 |
"The group isn't registered as a not-for-profit, nor does it say anything about what it plans to do with your money." Sounds like some of our government agencies.  | |||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3060 Registered: 5-2004  |
The Alabama Attorney General (who supports the Alabama Minutemen) has publicly stated that he feels it is perfectly alright for his men (undeputized, with no law enforcement authority) to shoot to kill illegal aliens. I'll see if I can find the transcript of his comments. | |||
| dano Citizen Username: Dano Post Number: 201 Registered: 5-2001 |
There was a very funny piece on this group on The Daily Show Tuesday night. This old man was sitting in his lawn chair checking the border between VT and Canada! | |||
| Chris Prenovost Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost Post Number: 898 Registered: 7-2003 |
The minutemen are raising a very valid issue: Do we enforce our immigration laws, or not? Stop the hypocrisy, already. Either we enforce the law and secure the border, or adopt a policy of open immigration and say bye-bye to our linguistic and cultural unity. | |||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3063 Registered: 5-2004 |
Chris, I completely agree. But I don't think it is the purvue of private citizens to enforce our immigration laws. Even on their web site they call themselve Vigilantes. In some parts of the country, vigilante justice is not considered a bad thing. Though I hope people would have learned from the vigilantes that use to lynch people. | |||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 300 Registered: 2-2006 |
Well i say let's take matters into our own "god-given-american" hands let's pick up our rakes and pitch forks....oh wait we don't have any cause that kind of work has been done by the illegal immigrants that got paid 4 dollars an hour for it. | |||
| Chris Prenovost Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost Post Number: 899 Registered: 7-2003 |
Bajou, you're missing the point. No one is denying the fact that the immigrants, legal and otherwise, provide a valuable service. (But the $4 an hour is way off - most of the illegals make $10 - $12 per hour in cash) What a lot of us are saying is, enforce the law! We have legal immigration, use it! Pay your share of taxes and insurance! Enough with this illegal immigration, already. | |||
| Mr. Big Poppa Citizen Username: Big_poppa Post Number: 664 Registered: 7-2004 |
Chris, using your logic, why don't we focus the vigilantes/minutemen's attention to other crime. I'd be much happier knowing they were focused on reducing murders and drugs in depressed areas. Or do you think illegal immigration is a much more important issue worth addressing? | |||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1537 Registered: 2-2005 |
Maybe we should all send money to licensed and monitored charities, like the United Way... anyone remember THAT little fiasco? | |||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 307 Registered: 2-2006 |
Dear Chris: Did you ever have to go through immigration??? I did. Doubt that you had to cause if you did you wouldn't make such nonsense statements. Did you know for instance that it is perfectly legal for immigration to distribute working visa, green cards and seasonal worker on a country preferred basis. Did you know that certain countries receive preferred processing? Did you know they send greencard lottery applications to germans whose names are on record for visiting the US but who have never ever shown any interest in moving here? Did you know that India is a highly favored contry because there is an enourmous pool of doctors and IT personel to be pooled from? Now these are jobs an american person would want..how many unemployed americans are are trying for jobs laying brick or do landscaping (not own the company but actually do the work). Yes I am from a preferred country and immigrating was a piece of cake for me but try going to the regular channels if you are mexican or form any other non-preferred country. To quote a favorite comic of mine.. If you are pissed because you think an illegal immigrant got the job you applied for then ask yourself how bad your interview went. | |||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3076 Registered: 5-2004 |
Bajou, Does that mean you support illegal immpgration? I think Chris is saying that if we have a law in place, it should be enforced. | |||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7660 Registered: 5-2001  |
I still don't get the indignancy over how people got here. Most of us are from immigrant families, unless our ancestors were slaves or Native American. Bajou points out the the law is capricious and uneven. The question isn't "do we uphold laws" but "do we change unjust laws"? Interracial marriage used to be illegal. Women owning property, voting, etc. was illegal. Can any of you imagine saying "well, it's illegal for a black person to marry a white person so we should enforce that." There are thousands of people here who happen not to have a piece of paper that proves some status. They are hard-working and make a huge contribution. Why is no one questioning the law that makes it illegal? Howzabout we grant citizenship to everyone who contributes positively to society and deport rapists, drug dealers and child molesters, regardless of their place of birth or ancestry? | |||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6139 Registered: 5-2001  |
They should make all illegal immigrants who prove they have a job legal. We need their tax dollars. Also, does anyone think there should be a cap for how much money they send over seas? | |||
| Chris Prenovost Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost Post Number: 917 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks, Rastro, that is exactly what I am saying. | |||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3337 Registered: 9-2001  |
I like that. Greenie. My kids are descended on my ex's side from the original Plymouth Bay Colony, and on my side from Eastern European shtetls. But since they are adopted, they also have Native American, French Canadian, English, and Italian blood in them. So if they get busted for selling drugs, they will have a whole menu of places to choose to get deported to. Something to look forward to--sell drugs and get a chance to see the world! (Ahem, tongue firmly in cheek, knocking wood, and not giving my kids a kenahorah). | |||
| Mr. Big Poppa Citizen Username: Big_poppa Post Number: 667 Registered: 7-2004 |
Either we enforce the law and secure the border, or adopt a policy of open immigration and say bye-bye to our linguistic and cultural unity. There isn't any in between, Chris? Obiviously, the law isn't working, and it will probably cost to much to effectively enforce. So, maybe we should change the law. It doesn't have to be full, open immigration, but a way to reduce the number of illegal immigrants so government agencies can more easily deal with them. Also, you never answered my question: "Do you think illegal immigration is a more important issue to address than murders or other violent crime?" Remember, we have limited resources in this country....where would you like to spend them? | |||
| chiquita Citizen Username: Chiquita Post Number: 86 Registered: 5-2001 |
Chris, I agree laws should be enforced, but your post implies that all illegal immigrants haven't even bothered trying going through legal channels to get into the US ("We have legal immigration, use it!). I have many relatives and family friends who have tried for years to get papers, to no avail (Bajou did a good job describing why). The INS was a nightmare when I applied for citizenship--I don't imagine it is a model of efficiency now. The level of desperation is what determines whether an illegal will risk life and limb to get over here after legal channels have failed. I'm still on the fence as to how this mess should be dealt with. I don't think shooting them at the border is something I'd agree with though. Bajou--Chris is from Canada, so he probably has dealt with immigration but without the "linguistic and cultural" baggage some immigrants have. | |||
| The Soulful Mr T Citizen Username: Howardt Post Number: 1906 Registered: 11-2004  |
I send all my spare change to Lyndon LaRouche. | |||
| Chris Prenovost Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost Post Number: 919 Registered: 7-2003 |
(Very, very long sigh. . . ) With apologies to Richard Milhous, Let Me Make Myself Perfectly Clear: Stop Illegal Immigration, pure and simple. Build a fence, double the size of the border patrol, make contributions to the Minutemen, whatever. But stop the illegals. Once that is done, reform the existing immigration laws. Bajou, Chiquita and others point out, correctly, that the existing laws are a discriminatory mess. Maybe something along the lines of an annual quota, first come first served, regardless of income, would be a good idea. Immigration made this country, and given the zero native birth rate, is essential. But you cannot reform anything or make any meaningful progress until you STOP ILLIGAL IMIGRATION! | |||
| Mr. Big Poppa Citizen Username: Big_poppa Post Number: 670 Registered: 7-2004 |
(Even a longer sigh than Chris's..) You still didn't answer the question: "Do you think illegal immigration is a more important issue to address than murders or other violent crime?" Remember, we have limited resources in this country....where would you like to spend them? At any cost, Chris? What if we have to divert funding from our "war" on terror or police enforcement in the big cities? By the way, you are killing our linguistic unity: "STOP ILLIGAL IMIGRATION!" ...help spellcheck  | |||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3079 Registered: 5-2004 |
The rationale for using "GWOT" funds for border patrols has been expressed previously. And I somehow think most of the people coming across the border illegally are not doctors, lawyers and engineers. There are potential solutions to the immigration mess. But I agree with Chris. And consider what will happen the day after we announce that all illegals who reside US as of a certain date will become legal. What do you think will happen at our borders between the date that that policy is announced, and the date on which it goes into effect? Mr. BP & ESL, I understand what you're saying, but you could say that about anything we spend money on. Is cancer research more important than AIDS research? Prison reform more important than drug law reform? Thjere are a lot of things that cost money. If we have to prioritize everything in relation to everything else, we'll only spend money on one program at a time until it is solved, then move onto the next. | |||
| Mr. Big Poppa Citizen Username: Big_poppa Post Number: 671 Registered: 7-2004 |
Rastro, I don't think we could only spend money to solve one program at a time. Rather, we have to think about HOW we spend our limited monies. Per Chris, Build a fence, double the size of the border patrol, make contributions to the Minutemen, whatever., it sounds like he is looking to spend unlimited monies to fully resolve the issue. Do you agree with that? We need to be fiscally responsible as a country. We need to spend intelligently. Are we looking for a Rolls Royce solution? Are there better solutions that will cost less? To simply say, we need to enforce this law at whatever cost is shortsighted. | |||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 308 Registered: 2-2006 |
Chris: Hope you are willing to do without all that illegal immigrants provide for you. I find it hilarious that people get on the illegal immigrants but have no problem using companies who can only exist because of the cheap labor. Before we get the go-out-an-get-them attitude and kick them all out take a good look at this link, then sit back and honestly review how your life would be affected. Here is a very very interesting article. attached at the bottom... Read it ..it will enlighten you.. or if you are more fictionally inclined http://www.adaywithoutamexican.com/index1.htm My solution would be the following: make anybody who has been here longer than 5 years legal. All others should immediately apply. These people will be allowed to stay, they will be taxed and they have two years and preferential processing status (These people already have a job and a community/family). Should they be declined then we will send them home and all the social security taxes they have had to pay will be reimbursed since they cannot use them down the road. And yes the hispanic percentage of illegal immigrants is very large but don't be fooled..the chinese illegal immigrant market is enourmous and you can follow their immigration track right via Canada. Making these illegals legal would also do away with the terrible conditions some illegals have to deal with to pay back their smugglers for bringing them here. Oh ladies get ready to do your own manicures/pedicures and tailoring... Hope yall learn how to iron your shirts yourself..
| |||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1840 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bajou - Yes! Illegal immigrants do pay taxes (soc sec) as you mentioned - sales tax is another. If they aren't filing tax returns, they aren't paying income tax, but most illegal immigrants' salaries are so low that thousands (millions?) would qualify for returns that they aren't claiming. I like your solution BTW - humane and fair. | |||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 312 Registered: 2-2006 |
That's right Lydia... and let me tell you when you factor in the kids they would get quite a substantial refund. However they would also qualify for the no child without insurance program and therefor not flood emergency rooms to get treatments. And to the poster who compares an illegal immigrant to a guy who cuts in line.. you are really removed from the real world. These people come here cause they cannot feed their families at home and since everybody who is so anti immigrant keeps talking like they are just the true patriot of this debate then read below and heed the words of your forefathers: Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door. GOD BLESS AMERICA! | |||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3080 Registered: 5-2004 |
The problems I have are this: First, it does not stop the hemmoraging. What happens to the illegals that enter the day after this program goes into effect? A year after? Tis is a solution for the people already here, but does nothing for the flow of people. Second, why should someone who has broken the law to get here get preferential treatment over those that follow a the legal methods? While I would not necessarily throw them out, I believe they should go to the back of the line, if nothing else, for breaking the law. | |||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1539 Registered: 2-2005 |
It'll never happen, but I'd love to see a clause whereby a 'naturalized' citizen couldn't qualify for Welfare for 10 years after becoming a citizen. | |||
| Mr. Big Poppa Citizen Username: Big_poppa Post Number: 675 Registered: 7-2004 |
Case, better yet, why not try to find some sort of public work for many of the people claiming Welfare...... | |||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1841 Registered: 5-2001 |
??? Case and Mr. Big - Maybe I'm not following you, but illegal immigrants are working here. The only people who accept "welfare" in the USA are billion-dollar corporations and really poor people - some who made lousy and life-changing choices. Which welfare "Moms" cost us more? | |||
| Mr. Big Poppa Citizen Username: Big_poppa Post Number: 677 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lydia, I was intentionally trying to open up a can of worms and create a thread drift...  | |||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1540 Registered: 2-2005 |
I'm not sure I was going for thread drift, but if you don't have a job you should probably stop squirting out babies. It's just a thought. Of course, I have to admit that Maury Povich would disagree - where would he get guests for his "Are you the baby's daddy" shows? Then again, I'm in favor of long-term mandatory birth control for anyone accepting welfare payments. | |||
| Joe R. Citizen Username: Ragnatela Post Number: 436 Registered: 6-2004 |
Hey Case, What do they stand for? You certainly can't tell from their website. Is your donation tax deductible? It shouldn't be. |
