| Author | Message | ||
     Psychomom Citizen Username: Psychomom Post Number: 122 Registered: 5-2005 |
OK so I'm sure there are a few of you Maplewoodians who are good sincere people for whom this rant will not apply...if so just ignore it! I have lived in Maplewood and surrounding area for a good many years and it cracks me up when I hear someone say that they embrace the notion of diversity in town. Diversity to Maplewood is like an academic study...yes lets dress up in native gear and do a potluck and sing Kumbayah together and call ourselves diverse. But let a family of color move next door or on the block and see how many for sale signs go up. The goal of diversity should be to gel together a community so close that color, race, religion, etc. is no longer even noticed, We are all part of the family of humans and that is the only criteria for being in community. This is admittedly extremely hard to achieve, perhaps impossible and represents a utopian point of view, but it doesn't mean it is not a goal to strive toward. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 905 Registered: 7-2005  |
You are absolutely correct. Although, I've been saying this for ages...maybe someone will listen to you. | ||
| jem Citizen Username: Jem Post Number: 1542 Registered: 5-2001 |
That's not my experience. Houses formerly belonging to white families have sold to families of color on both streets where I've lived in Maplewood, and it has not precipitated a run for the exits. I think I've read that in other areas, once a house is owned by a black family, it never will be sold to a white family, but I've also observed that not to be the case here. I might agree that there are people who talk the diversity talk but don't actually step too far outside their own group, but we do better here than in lots of other places. I would certainly not call it a joke. | ||
| mjh Supporter Username: Mjh Post Number: 528 Registered: 5-2001 |
Not my experience either. Our block is about half black and half white, and has been for the 8 years we've been here. Lots of long-term white families on the block. In fact, have new white neighbors now (and they are next door to an African American family). I'm sorry to hear you feel that is the case where you live, but I wouldn't over-generalize. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 908 Registered: 7-2005 |
That was just a minor example. Immediately everyone tries to rationalize by picking one point out of the post and jumping on it as false. | ||
| blackcat Citizen Username: Blackcat Post Number: 602 Registered: 6-2001 |
Mr. Blackcat and I always thought it was funny that we were pretty much the only white family on our block when we first moved here. We joke when we see all the white people walking around. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 354 Registered: 2-2006 |
Not my experience either. Homes have sold to several different colors without consequences on all three addresses I lived. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7684 Registered: 5-2001  |
Glock - curious as to how you rationalize your own experiences as global and universally valid but those with different experiences are jumping on one point. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 909 Registered: 7-2005 |
I don't. Instead of looking at the overall post people are just pulling it apart individually in order to ease their personal fears. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 1459 Registered: 7-2004  |
"I've been saying this for ages" I didn't realize you had been alive long enough to say that. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11528 Registered: 5-2001 |
A couple of comments: The Hilton area went from being 10% black to over 60% black during 1990s. This information is from the census bureau data. As Blackcat indicates this area seems to be reintegrating. There are a lot of areas that are very integrated, mostly in the Clinton school area and their wasn't white flight on the scale in Hilton. I have no idea why. West of the railroad tracks their are very few black homeowners. Since areas with similar socio-economic areas in South Orange are well integrated, again, I can't figure this one out either. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3272 Registered: 5-2001  |
Streets near CHS are quite diverse and everybody gets along great on the streets nearest my house (except for when a rental house is occupied by especially inconsiderate college kids), and I've been saying this since the Pre-Cambrian Era. | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1575 Registered: 2-2005 |
Dammit Mayor! I wanted to say that and you beat me to it. | ||
| Psychomom Citizen Username: Psychomom Post Number: 123 Registered: 5-2005 |
I lived in the Clinton School section growing up and it was all white, largely italian...when the area started changing our next door neighbor, neighbor across the street, another 2 doors down all moved in a very short time span...coincidence? I think not. I'm glad to hear it has settled down but it wasn't always that way. Now, my mom lives in the area between Springfield Ave and Valley St. and there are some people of color crossing over from the Hilton section and the neighbors are all up in arms...and OMG guess what you will see over there??? FOR SALE signs. Amazing isn't it? | ||
| Buzzsaw Citizen Username: Buzzsaw Post Number: 4732 Registered: 5-2001  |
The block I live on is a mix of everyone and every kind. We all seem to get along well. But, reading what people have to say about race on an anonymous message board does make me feel that we really have a long way to go. (in both directions) | ||
| Oldstone Citizen Username: Rogers4317 Post Number: 706 Registered: 6-2004  |
no buzzsaw, it just means SOME people have a long way to go if they are "up in arms" over non-whites moving onto their street. and if these "up in arms" people sell then even better for maplewood, imo. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 358 Registered: 2-2006 |
You have a weird way of putting things: "there are some people of color crossing over from the Hilton section"... I think you do need to realize that residents of a certain age (one generation up) might act differently then our generation. And hopefully we can say the same and have the generation which comes after us be even better... Hopefully | ||
| blackcat Citizen Username: Blackcat Post Number: 603 Registered: 6-2001 |
Yes, the neighborhood is reintergrating. All we see are white people around the neighborhood. We still joke that they must be lost  | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1773 Registered: 5-2001 |
There are three houses for sale on my short, mostly white street, all of which went up for sale after a black family left. Hmmm... | ||
| jeffl Supporter Username: Jeffl Post Number: 1698 Registered: 8-2001  |
Any examples of towns that are more successfully diverse than Maplewood? | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7685 Registered: 5-2001 |
Psycho- out of curiosity, how old are you, your mom and the up-in-arms neighbors? Just because there are some relics from earlier times does not mean that this is how things are now. Your reference to "growing up" and the "way things were" leads me to believe that your reference points may be a bit dated. It doesn't mean that there aren't problems or we don't have a ways to go. But, I don't think this is Maplewood circa 1970. | ||
| Chris Prenovost Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost Post Number: 944 Registered: 7-2003 |
If this was Maplewood circa 1970, Columbia would be the best high school in the state, and one of the top ten high schools in the country. | ||
| james brown Citizen Username: James_brown Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2006 |
Bless you phychomom you are exactly right. I can't seem to get anyone to be real about this. We are a racially mixed town, but we have not made an attempt to fix the problems that keep us apart. If we cannot even acknowledge the problems ,we have no hope of living together! Ethnic Diversity is not the same as political correctness, and never will be. How about some honesty? | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4327 Registered: 12-2001  |
Thank you GT. Any assessment of tolerance for diversity has to use the "are we getting better scale". Human beings will always have to work at acceptance of diversity. It is never the kind of thing that, once you get it right, you don't have to work at it any more. | ||
| mrmaplewood Citizen Username: Mrmaplewood Post Number: 344 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have been in my neighborhood longer than I care to talk about. The houses go from black to white and back and forth, and no one has ever cared. People do move, but not due to the racial makeup. I have no idea where Psychomom gets her opinions from. They are not my reality. | ||
| Morrisa da Silva Citizen Username: Mod Post Number: 458 Registered: 12-2003 |
I live on a street between Springfield and Valley and there are both black and white families on my block and the blocks surrounding mine. Yes there are For Sale signs but not for the reasons you surmise Psychomom. Some families are relocating for jobs, some are retiring and downsizing, some are moving to larger houses in Maplewood, some are leaving Maplewood for tax reasons and probably a few for school reasons. What is NOT happening is "white flight". } | ||
| Hamandeggs Citizen Username: Hamandeggs Post Number: 290 Registered: 8-2005 |
Nor is this my reality. I see much evidence of racial diversity, and there is a reason that many mixed-race families come here. (And, believe me, this is a growing population and we have some very specific concerns where we live and where we educate our kids.) Diversity means much else beyond race -- often less visible factors -- and we have that too. You can deny it if YOU choose, but this community is diverse like no other I've seen, visited, heard of, read of. And we acknowledge our problems -- sometimes I feel we focus too much on them. They are challenging problems to solve, but this is the place that can do it. I read the original post here and I don't see the "dress it up, sing Kumbaya" stuff. What I see is kids and adults living closely and therefore bumping hard into the biases they grew up with or heard someplace. When we are lucky (as wel most often are) we reexamine these in light of the neighbor, teacher, etc we now know and grow from the experience. As much as you suggest that our backgrounds should be invisible, many others point with great pride to where they come from. There is no tabula rasa, after all... | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 7689 Registered: 5-2001 |
Try spending time in my hometown. When we go to visit, people spend a lot of time looking at TS in restaurants, etc., trying to figure out who the black woman is with all those white people. | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1577 Registered: 2-2005 |
Trick question - she's the waitress. Heh heh heh heh... take 30 seconds to calm down before you post, I'm just teasing. And in the spirit of teasing - just how tolerant/accepting/loving am I required to be these days? I'm white, and there are white people on my block that totally piss me off - is that allowed? Or should I strive to love everyone equally? I'm actually quite serious... just what is the 'new' requirement here? God knows we all want everyone to feel loved and secure and welcome and all - I hate to admit it, but I feel like I'm missing the point of the thread. | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 842 Registered: 1-2006  |
The discussions that we have about race are possible because African American and Caucasian people actually do live together, share the same school system and government. We adults mostly grew up ONE generation ago when this was not the case, with some exceptions. Integration is an ongoing process. Our achievements will be seen in subsequent generations. We adults have to get along well enough in spite of our own racial experiences, to allow our children to grow up with different experiences. Our mission is to work this stuff out. Will it be difficult sometimes? Yes. Is it worth it? I think so, that's why I moved here. (South Orange.) J.B. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5062 Registered: 1-2004  |
I haven't seen that where I live. We have a mixture of families on our block. | ||
| juju's petals Citizen Username: Jujus_petals Post Number: 253 Registered: 5-2003  |
While waiting for my daughter's ballet class to finish one afternoon, I overheard two other mothers discussing the housing market and whether they should sell and get a bigger place and if it should be in Maplewood. Both of them agreed that they would "only consider" two or three of streets or blocks between Maplewood Ave and Wyoming and nowhere else in Maplewood -- so why bother moving somewhere else in Maplewood? I was quietly astonished at how small their worlds were. In fact, it was kind of pathetic. You'd only consider living on one of three streets? That's nuts! I'm thinking the same thing as I read this thread. Yes, yes, all politics is local. But when you take such a reductionist view on the value and meaning of your, quite frankly, already small community (white v. black, Ridgewood v. Springfield, Hilton v. Clinton) you've missed the point of living in a community like this one in the first place. I imagine there is some innate human tendancy toward elistism and exclusion that will always exist regardless of the situation. It is probably naive to think it will go away because a town is fairly racial and economically diverse. It also reminds me of my favorite observation by Mark Twain -- that New Yorkers are the most provincial people he'd ever met. Everyone in the rest of the country knows all about New York, but New Yorkers don't know anything about the rest of the country. Talking about the invisible lines in our tiny town may be interesting armchair sociology, but I wonder if that makes them seem more real than they really are. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1662 Registered: 9-2004  |
My goodness, I think I'm experiencing "Black Flight." The AA neighbors across the street and in back of me sold to Whites.  Seriously, when we moved here in the early 90's our block was pretty mixed. But as of lately, we are only 1 of 2 AA's on the block. I never experienced the "white flight", but more of the older people downsizing or moving to a retirememnt community. You have other families who have relocated dued to job transfers or the need of a bigger home. Our surrounding neighborhood has gone through a transition of "younger" families with kiddies moving in. Perhaps it's more of "the older generation" flight. .  | ||
| Hank Zona Supporter Username: Hankzona Post Number: 5588 Registered: 3-2002 |
maybe theyre leaving because of your Red Sox banner, Phenix.  and juju, maybe if we're all lucky, those folks who will only consider 2 or 3 blocks in town will move from Maplewood, or at least stay on those 2 or 3 blocks since theyre not mine. Living in a diverse community doesnt guarantee acceptance of diversity, but it is a start because you have to figure most people here arent so hung up about it or they wouldnt stay. Is this Diversity Nirvana? Nope, but Im not sure anywhere is. And, the fact we are a couple of communities comprised of a range of races, religions, familial structures, sexual orientations and socioeconomic backgrounds in such a small geographic space puts us in the minority of communities across this country, where one will find a lot more homogeneity of various sorts (even just a short drive from here), and puts us ahead of the curve. We may not always inter-mingle (and that isnt just racially), but we generally all co-exist relatively smoothly and happily. Our kids are in schools and activities and teams together...we attend houses of worship together...we shop and commute and eat out and walk alongside and past one another. Im not overplaying that, but Im also not taking that for granted. | ||
| Psychomom Citizen Username: Psychomom Post Number: 124 Registered: 5-2005 |
Greentree, I would like to clarify that I am NOT saying that I would move because a family of color moved in but I am saying that the reality as I have experienced it is that people do just that. For the record I am 52 my mom is 82 and the people on her street are largely in their late thirties early 40's I would guess. So I don't think age is significant here...BTW how old are you? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11537 Registered: 5-2001 |
Maybe I am suffering from nostalgia, but when we moved here and adopted our kids in the late 1970s and early 1980s I think there was a lot more interaction between the races here. We are still social friends with several AA couples we met during that period from various Newcomer Club activiteis, nursery school, etc. My sense is that this isn't as common as it was back then. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1777 Registered: 5-2001 |
PM, Is your rant based on your perception, or have you spoken to people who've said they are moving out because a black family moved in. You do know that spring is the time of year most people put their houses on the market, don't you? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14307 Registered: 1-2003  |
Nope. I just do not get what you're saying. Are you actually saying that you think the houses for sale are a RESPONSE to the black family that just moved in? How can you be sure of the correlation? Couldn't the decision to sell be based on other factors? Are we perfectly diverse and tolerant? Absolutely not. If this is your example, it's not very plausible. I can think of examples of how we have further to go. This is just a really bad one. jeffl, yes, there are more successfully diverse towns, depending on how you measure. I lived in Edison, NJ from 1987 to 2003. It is more diverse than Maplewood and South Orange. I would rather live here. I find Edison unattractive and boring. But if diversity were the measure, Edison wins. And the kids really act colorblind in a way I never saw in my life. Ah but Edison doesn't have many so-called "affected minorities" i.e. minorities that are "disadvantaged" or often subject to discrimination, so maybe it doesn't count. In Edison, the immigrants are from China, Korea, Japan, India, Pakistan, the Phillipines, Vietnam, etc. There are a few eastern Europeans, too. There are second- and later generation people from Italy, Hungary, Poland, Ireland, etc., and they assimilated. Not many Blacks or Hispanics. | ||
| Psychomom Citizen Username: Psychomom Post Number: 125 Registered: 5-2005 |
Many of you are prooving my point in your attempt to defend the town. Just the fact that you keep score how many whites how many blacks...calling people AA (which I had to think about 'cause I only heard that in reference to alcoholics anonymous) shows that you are still pidgeonholing people into neat little groups and relating that way. In my former church we had so many ethnic groups we stopped counting and got onto the business of being there for each other and not earning bragging rights to the "some of my best friends are black" slogan. I enjoyed and still enjoy the many friendships formed from that community and refer to my friends by name and not ethnicity. That is what I think is missing in Maplewood from MY experience ( and it would seem a few others experience as well if you look at these postings) | ||
| Twokitties Citizen Username: Twokitties Post Number: 441 Registered: 8-2004 |
Get over yourself Psycho. |
