| Author | Message | ||
     Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1851 Registered: 5-2001 |
Case, Blaming the victim(s) won't solve the problem. Yeah - I agree, "Glock's" MOL ID is not cool - he is young however. How many dumb things did we posture about at age 20 that we cringe about 10-20 years later? The problem as I see it is that we have several generations having children with no adult guidance. If a woman is a grandmother at age 40 that's a problem, it's not racist, it's not sexist, it's a guaranteed route to poverty for another generation. White people, black people and politicians have to stop fearing being labeled and shout. We have to endure some courageous voices being voted out and nurture new voices - it's going to take some time to get rid of the old political machines. | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1581 Registered: 2-2005 |
OK, let's not blame the victims - who shall we blame? Or to put it in a nicer way, who shall solve this problem? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1359 Registered: 10-2004  |
The problem cannot be solved overnight. ie It will take generations to change, it will take both a helping hand from those that have to help remove the scourge of poverty and a change in what might be considered cultural but is negative and results in too many teenage pregnancies and too many fatherless homes. Education has to become a priority for all black families and blacks have to help to make the nuclear family more the norm then the aberation. Jobs have to be not only available but they have to be well enough paying that they can consider themselves to be middle class. When stable family life, self-esteem and financial security rises within the community the scourge of drugs and crime will drop. I know the above is easy to say and difficult to achieve and is not the only answer nor may it even be the right answer, but its the way I see it. | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 4724 Registered: 5-2001  |
Hoops, are you AA? I said what you did once and got yelled at about being a whitey and what did I know and butt out. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 921 Registered: 7-2005  |
I c hose it because I knew it would stand out and make everyone go "Oh, my". Which it did. Regardless, it holds no relevance to this discussion. | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1583 Registered: 2-2005 |
Yes, we were all shocked by your audacious choice. I for one am still trying to recover.  Seriously though - on behalf of all white people, let me apologize for causing all these problems. We're sorry. Our bad. | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 142 Registered: 10-2005 |
Apology accepted CASE. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14308 Registered: 1-2003  |
16 year olds are not entirely responsible for their choices. They are somewhat responsible, but not entirely. This is the law, and neurology and other sciences can show that they are not able to understand the consequences of their choices. They are not responsible for their circumstances, either. And our entire society, not just the black or poorer segments, have failed, if the result is this situation. Putting this on so-called leaders gives them too much responsiblity. Therefore, I deplore any statement that claims that the death of a 16 year old is anything less than a tragedy. Those who state it should be ashamed of themselves. They won't be, so I am ashamed on their behalf. The tragedy is for the dead, their families, and all of society. We need to feel other people's suffering as if it's our own. There will be no healing without that first. | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 145 Registered: 10-2005 |
Yes, Tom, it takes a village. | ||
| K_soze Citizen Username: K_soze Post Number: 224 Registered: 11-2005  |
LW,Glock & Phenixrising - You guys must be smoking some good ••••. I guess looking into a computer screen enables you to figure everything and everyone out but let me clarify a few things for ya' What I post isn't meant to come off as sarcasm, it's the truth. Where in my post did I say black kids are doing all the killing and if they die so be it. No, all I said was 16 yr olds, you guys seem to want to turn everything into a race issue. Glock says I claim to be an expert on blacks and LW throws out I know, I love it when white people tell us their opinions on our leaders. Thank you, white people. WTF is with that? God forbid a non black person has an opinion on your leaders, would you like it if a white guy told you not to comment on anything white  Please tell me how you deduce my race, what makes you think I am not black? What makes you think I am white? I call it like I see it so forgive me if I'm not always willing to play the race card. As far as Jackson and Sharpton goes, LW is right, there are other black leaders/activists and when the speak I listen but do you really think Sharpton has the best interest of the Black community in mind? No. Do they want to get in the spotlight, point fingers and assign blame whenever an issue can be construed as being remotely racially biased...yes. In no way do I think there are no racial problems in the country and in our community but I'd be damned to assign every issue a label before knowing the facts. Getting back to the subject (assuming you guys can stay on point for a minute), Unfortunately we have kids out on the streets, all hours of the day, doing non-kid things. It's only a matter of time before they get caught up in something they can't get out of. I agree that the problem lies with where you're brought up and with the opportunities you're given (or lack thereof) and most importantly an absence in parenting. Sorry that the end results are "lost children" but if you're 16 I'm sure you can tell that sitting in a stolen car or being involved in gang activity is WRONG. It is a tragedy when a truly innocent kid is killed, but what about when somebody's grandma is mugged and beaten by young kids because it's part of their gang initiation? How about when your car gets stolen and you find out a 14 year old kid was the one joyriding? Glock and LW, do you guys speak from your own life experience or do you just repeat what you're read in a book somewhere? I know what I'm talking about and every bad thing that happens to black people is not always done by others in attempt to bring them down. I was raised in the worst part of Irvington (I'm not just saying that, my street was on the news as being the worst few blocks in the state!) I've seen family and friends die right around me, some of them are in prison, some of them are headed to wards either. My family still lives on that god-damned street an they're too stubborn to leave. I still have to go there, to show face on X-mas or Thanksgiving or whatever. I can't stand it, I won't bring my wife or child there and neither will most of the other family. Their cars get stolen or shot up regularly, my uncle's been carjacked, my cousin can't bring her 5 year old kid out to play, she goes from the house to the car. The kid had a red snowsuit on and she was surrounded by 4 men who told her she'd better watch how she dresses him cause C's up B's down. You know what, her baby's father is one of the guys right out there with them. The house gets broken into all the time......all this and NONE of us are WHITE We all make our own choices, both my parents were dead by the time I was 13, still I got out and made something for myself. But I still have to live seeing what's going on there, talking to my younger cousins and trying to help them and speaking some sense into them. If it doesn't work, what else can you do? People make their own choices, when they choose the wrong path bad •••• happens and it's a sad fact that even the young ones get caught up in it too. | ||
| Chris Prenovost Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost Post Number: 947 Registered: 7-2003 |
It takes a village? Wrong. It takes parents. Two of them. And that is something that 90% of the kids in 'da hood' do not have. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14312 Registered: 1-2003 |
Chris, you are right about needing two parents. Or, to be more accurate, having two parents in the home increases your chances of success. But saying that does not negate the fact that it takes a village. If the peer role models are of men who impregnate women and leave, the village is failing. | ||
| Chris Prenovost Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost Post Number: 948 Registered: 7-2003 |
It is. Take a look at Kaizer Soze's post above. That's the heart of the matter. And a lot more common sense than I am used to seeing on this message board. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1412 Registered: 10-2005 |
K-soze- Glock and LW making a race issue out of something? get out? Better hide your Double Stuff Oreos from them or they would say the extra stuffing is keeping the black cookies down. If you read in between the lines of their posts, it is their thought processes that festers what occurs on the worst block in Irvington. Love & Kisses, A white guy who's old enough (and much older than Glock) to have been around and seen alot of crap in his life, -SLK Glock/LW, I'll cut you a deal. I as a white person will stop commenting on your black leaders if you promise to stop blaming me for every short coming that aa black person incurs, ok? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1368 Registered: 10-2004 |
ffof - no. Maybe you didnt articulate it as succinctly, or more likely nobody reads my posts. K_Soze - that was a very personal narrative. What is your view on how to turn around the forces that cause poverty, crime and racial divisiveness. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 936 Registered: 7-2005 |
I don't blame white people for everything that happens to black people. Although white people are the cause of the current situation in America. But I don't blame them for everything. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 360 Registered: 2-2006 |
K_S I know for a fact that this last post was very difficult for you to type. Big hug from a friend. To Glock and LW: Not for nothing but when I hear "us and them" then the division is made and this time by you. Racism goes both ways my friends and I can tell you that first hand. Glock I know who you are and I think you know you who I am ... thought of you as more balanced and less "hate the world just for the hell" kind a guy. Tom R: you wrote: This is the law, and neurology and other sciences can show that they are not able to understand the consequences of their choices. Do you have a 16 year old? I do, and that's my second child so I have gone through this stage twice. How stupid do you think a kid at 16 is? A kid at 16 years old understands the consequences of their choices (that's why the try to hide most if it from you). Unfortunately what some kids lack is the understanding that there really will be consequences and that is a parental issue. And in regards to "It takes a village": Yeah that's great but before it takes a village it takes an efin parent. And Phoenix: Thank you for the list of organisations. I actually called the "Beyond Expectation" number in Chicago to see if they would allow an additional chapter to be opened. HOWEVER you actually proved my point. I asked where the black parents ralleys are? All the organisations you listed are school or youth driven. Why the F is nobody standing outside of G-Unit Label screaming at 50 Cent and all the other irresponsible lowlifes who think it's all good portraying the "Gangsta lifestyle" as something to aspire to. You think C.J. Jackson III (50 Cent) would know better considering how he had to start his life. Oh his reason is not "what else can I do" it's "what else can I do where I can make this kind of money" that keeps him motivated. Gangsta sells! So what is done instead is to blame everybody else. The school, the neighborhood, the wrong friends, the economic situation, the color. BULL-CRAP..YOU KNOW WHOSE FAULT IT IS WHEN YOUR 16 YR OLD KID IS REGULARLY OUT AT 3 AM. YOUR FAULT ... AS A PARENT. ASK FOR HELP IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE YOUR KID. GO TO THERAPY WITH HIM/HER. FIND A SEMI-DECENT MALE FAMILY MEMBER IF YOU NEED MALE INTERVENTION. DO WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO CAUSE THAT IS YOUR JOB AND NOBODY ELSES!! Parents...take your kids back! That should be the slogan but everybody is so afraid to be politically incorrect. It is not the kids responsibility but the parents, so hold them responsible too. Don't charge a 16 year old as an adult without charging the parent too. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14316 Registered: 1-2003 |
Bajou, I have a 17 year old and a 14 year old. They are not fully responsible. The older one of them is now excused from taking a supplemental math class she is enrolled in but hasn't bothered to drop it officially. She is being marked as cutting, even though the teacher doesn't feel she needs to be there. But the way the system works, if she is marked as absent too many times, she will get an F. I explained that getting an F would be a bad thing. She asked why, because it's just a stupid class. She forgot about the importance of an F on her transcript when applying for college. I tell the story to illustrate the fact that they do not see enough angles to their behavior. I make the point to say that the kids who die from gunshots are not fully responsible for bringing the gunshots on themselves. As such, it is a tragedy when they die. I am very angry at the implication that it is not a loss, since they're such rotten kids who deserve to die. If they understood the consequences of their actions, they wouldn't be taking their actions. They don't want to die. And my daughter doesn't want to be turned down by college. They don't have their eyes on the prize. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 937 Registered: 7-2005 |
If a 14 year old can be tried as an adult...then a 17 year old is completely responsible for their actions. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14318 Registered: 1-2003 |
Are you saying that the kids who get shot are responsible for their own deaths? If so, then are you letting the shooters off? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 938 Registered: 7-2005 |
No, I said they are responsible for their own actions...what those actions lead up to...they are also partially responsible for too. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14319 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'll agree there. I just got really pissed off with k_soze's comment about "the life you choose" because it seemed so heartless. The individual and society are both responsible. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6164 Registered: 5-2001  |
This one keeps cracking me right up: "Although white people are the cause of the current situation in America. But I don't blame them for everything." | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14320 Registered: 1-2003 |
I disagree with it, too, mem, but I don't find it funny, and neither do I find it funny that you find it funny. And given the topic at hand, I don't think anything related to a high death rate of young people is funny. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6165 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom, I don't find your crticism of me funny either, because you are dead wrong about no one here thinking it's a tragedy - I don't know where you get off saying that. No one has said that and besides that is not the issue here in this thread. We are discussing how to fix this problem. Start another thread if you feel it's necessary to mourn and take your off-base thread drift there. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14322 Registered: 1-2003 |
Discussion of how to fix it is fine. I'm surprised you find mourning to be off-topic. I think they're inextricably linked. I don't mean to say YOU don't think it's a tragedy. Others have shrugged it off, which I find hard to take. I don't have a lot of faith in Al Sharpton, so I won't hold a lot of hope that he'll say anything useful. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 714 Registered: 7-2003 |
Wow K_soze, now THATS "keepin it real". If you've read any of my other posts, yours and the comments LW made after your testimony are what I've been saying all along. Mem, now do you see why I recanted my statement? Glock, I love you young brother. Any black man would be proud to have a son like you. Like my father told me as a youngster, "Ok, whites may have caused and are still causing problems for black people but son look, who destroys black people more than black people? And don't just look here, look at how we treat each other in our own African countries pre and post slavery." Deep ••••... | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 365 Registered: 2-2006 |
Tom: I If I were you I'd get of the message board, drive to the school and sit your daughter down in the deans office. Then I would go step by step through the consequences with the dean in her presence and on the ride home from CHS you tell her that any (and I mean) any social event attendance will be completely dependent on her participation in a class she is supposed to attend. If she tells you that that is not fair then tell her that life hasn't been fair to anyone since it was invented and she is not exception. Point, period, over ... | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14324 Registered: 1-2003 |
Bajou, I'm dealing with it in a way similar to your suggestion. I'm treating her like a child, because she is one. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6167 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bklyn, If you love glock so much perhaps you could help him with his biased, unproductive and narrow minded views. "Ok, whites may have caused and are still causing problems for black people" - I agree with this, but to be fair, do you also think that blacks may have caused and are still causing problems for white people? | ||
| K_soze Citizen Username: K_soze Post Number: 225 Registered: 11-2005 |
Tom R-I don't think anyone finds it funny. I just have a problem with everyone pointing fingers at what/who they think is responsible. That's a big problem in today's society - accountability - no one want's it, no one wants to own up to what they've done or at least had a hand in. HOOPS - K_Soze - that was a very personal narrative. What is your view on how to turn around the forces that cause poverty, crime and racial divisiveness. I don't think there's a definate answer to that but first in line are your parents, are they there? What kind of examples are they setting? Many times you don't have mom and dad to guide you and that's why I belive in the "it takes a village" analogy. I can speak of my own experiences. If you're sitting around waiting for someone else to fix your problems then the •••• ain't getting done and you're gonna stay right where you are. At one point, even if you're been denied all he opportunities of other kids, even if the streets is all you know, you've got to take just a little responsibility for you actions. I believe once you start to see your friends or family take the high road/right path etc. you will (or at least should be) following suit. I think that's the only way to break that cycle, follow in the path of those who've done right. Example: I have a few cousins that I am very close with, two in particular- they're a generation apart. The older of the two has 2 brothers and a sister, as a child I and the younger of the two cousins always hung out with or were with the older one. My older cousin finished school and moved out of the area, he lined himself up with a good career, he purchesed a home got himself a wife then had kids. His two brothers and sister saw that, they'd visit his home and liked that, they too wanted to be out of the ghetto, living that "dream" they did what they had to do. For them that life has been left behind, so what if it was difficult, so what if they'd been told that people would make it hard for them because of their skin, so what if they knew giving up and staying put is always easier than a struggle. I always looked up to that older cousin and no obsticle be it caused bt myself, by the system, or by other people would stop me from getting where I'm at today. Now lets go back to the younger of two, he also had those guys to look up to, (infact he was raised more like their brothe beacue mom and dad weren't around and somebody else had to pick up the slack) As kids we both had the same exact goals, we both wanted to be the same thing when we "grew" up.......why is he still there? He's got a "baby's momma", two kids and lives in an ef'ed up part if the city, he's been locked up, stabbed and shot it. We all try to talk some sense into him, his response is "the hood is where I belong" Even when we remind him of the funerals we've been to and the jail visits that nobody likes to do anymore, he's still unchanged. No matter how many parents you have, no matter how big your village is, you still have to take a litle responsibility for yourself and ultimately if you're not willing to do so you'll end up a lost cause. That's the root of my first post. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 369 Registered: 2-2006 |
Tom: Good for you. Yes they are children...but not dumb ones. I truly believe that the greatest mistake a parent can make is to underestimate their child. Brooklyntj: Like my father told me as a youngster, "Ok, whites may have caused and are still causing problems for black people but son look, who destroys black people more than black people? And don't just look here, look at how we treat each other in our own African countries pre and post slavery." Your father was very wise and consciences man. Keep sharing that spirit...and Glock my young friend read the statement and really think it through. Granted this statement came from a man from a generation that didn't feel they could change much. This is not the case anymore ... Speak up, shout (yes glock shout) it out but at the right people namely at the killers. Standing up for what's right has nothing to do with color coordination. White people are being done wrong by whites and yes black people are being done wrong by blacks. What it comes down to is reclaiming the youth (and safety) of our children and sometimes that is accomplished by taking a little of the freedom that some are not capable of handling responsibly. I am writting a letter to G-Unit an others whose influence has become a deadly fashion. Sure it won't do much but I want them to feel some responsibility as role models. You know how it might be heard..if it isn't 1 letter but 1 million letters. | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1588 Registered: 2-2005 |
The trend in America, though, seems to be moving away from taking personal responsibility. I realize we can all site examples of this - getting fat? sue McDonald's! Drive a car into a utility pole? Sue Chrysler, and sue the local utility company while you're at it. Were you drunk when you crashed? Sue the bartender. It IS terrible when someone dies needlessly on the street like that, regardless of the age of the victim. Where does the responsibility lie? If the parent(s) can't control their kids... will the police? And if the police try to clear the streets, will they be sued and accused of 'racial profiling'? I think that there are many 'lost causes' out in the world today. I don't see a solution that would solve this problem... that sucks, and it IS a shame and a waste, but whoever said that life was fair? | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 715 Registered: 7-2003 |
Mem, Glock is a very intelligent young man. He also is in the process of being enlightened to some very serious truths about his culture and his country. I know what he's going through but believe me, he'll be fine. mem, I know where you're coming from. Blacks do not cause problems for whites. Black behavior is an end result of a long process. I spoke on this a while ago. When you rob a people of all the knowledge of self they have, they're lost. They also lose a love they had for themselves. Therefore, they act in a unloving, unknowing manner. All of this trauma has caused blacks (AAs) as a whole to suffer from self-hatred. This psychological dilemna is shown in our actions everyday. Here's a question, how do you teach black people how to love themselves and each other? | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 370 Registered: 2-2006 |
Bklyntonj: Just wondering why we are always saying AA's? There are plenty of non african blacks and frankly I was recently corrected and very shocked to hear that some AA's call Haitians Coconuts. I guess there are shades of black... I agree with you on part of your statement but I think that self-love and self-respect is a learned trait..taugt by a parent or family member. It is not dependent in skin color, economical circumstances and origin but solely on the level of true selfless commitment a parent makes. Please do not think that a young person nowadays has to be black to be disillusioned. My live would be a piece of cake if that would be the case. Love your neighbor no matter what color he/she might be..remember you share a driveway (road of life) | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1592 Registered: 2-2005 |
I wonder if part of the solution is to stop looking to lay blame and start simply solving the problems? I don't see the solution coming from outside the community, to be honest - how could it? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 939 Registered: 7-2005 |
They all came from Africa at one point, whether or not they want to acknowledge that is up to them. Mem- "I agree with this, but to be fair, do you also think that blacks may have caused and are still causing problems for white people?" The only problem black people are causing white people is that they are still here long after they escaped their original purpose. (Being slaves and hard workers for white people) So what does America do? Disenfranchise them, hire more police, beef up the prison system, and spread consumerism to the black population. Why? If they aren't going to serve their purpose, murder them dead in the streets or lock them away. The rest? Push most of them into ghettos and make sure they are ignorant of themselves and the world around them. Make sure the turf wars and drugs are there. Easy prey for a crime lifestyle. Sure a few make it. People on this board love to mention Powell, Rice, Oprah, etc. etc. Others may break out and live successful lives, but that doesn't justify what happens to the other segement of the black population. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 716 Registered: 7-2003 |
Case, I've said it so many times, these issues HAVE to be solved be blacks. Its an internal issue. Bajou and any other black person on this thread, if black love is so strong, why aren't more blacks who make it out, never go back? | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1597 Registered: 2-2005 |
Hell... if I escaped a terrible situation I doubt I'D go back. But again, I have to take exception to what Glock is saying: "What does America do? Disenfranchise them, hire more police, beef up the prison system, and spread consumerism to the black population. Why? If they aren't going to serve their purpose, murder them dead in the streets or lock them away. The rest? Push most of them into ghettos and make sure they are ignorant of themselves and the world around them. Easy prey for a crime lifestyle. I may be interpreting this passage incorrectly, but it sure seems that responsibility for problems in the black community lie with... America? It's a big conspiracy to keep the black man down? The white man has planned things this way? In other words, it appears that none of the problems that exist in the black community are the responsibility of the black community - is that correct? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 943 Registered: 7-2005 |
White people created this country. White people brought blacks to the country. White people did nothing but mistreat and disenfranchise blacks in this country throughout most of this country's history. You figure it out. |
