| Author | Message | ||
     Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 786 Registered: 10-2005 |
I'm relatively new to Homeownership, and now I've got a complete young family to worry about too, and after watching Discovery Channel's "To catch a theif", I've looked around my house and realize that it's a sieve. I have nightmares about what happened to that family on New Years Day week, in Richmond Va. At first, I made sure all my doors locks were changed and updated, than I focused on the windows. I finally got comfortable with the windows, when I focused on good exterior lighting (Well lit front, motion detecter on the back), when I realized my cellar windows were easily entered (without breaking anything.....so i nailed 'em shut). After doing this for a while, I realized that whenever I plug my finger on one hole, another will sprout a leak. (case in point...my window locks are useless when the A/C is in the window) It might never end, so what are my other options? After thinking about it, I realized that my fear is the safety of my family. I could care less about any one item in my house (not that there's anything of value to anyone else anyway)....so I can lock up good and tight at night, but chances are, if the unthinkable occurs, it'll just happen during the day when all the windows and doors are wide open anyway and when I'm in the city at work. I don't want to be a recluse, and a big 'old dog isn't in the cards. I'm not an advocate of gun ownership, in fact i'm rather frightened by the concept....but I'm left to wonder....is there anything I can do? I'd love to sleep well at night once and for all. | ||
| red Citizen Username: Redy67 Post Number: 5856 Registered: 2-2003  |
Get a dog. IMO guns are not the answer. They are more dangerous to you and your kids than they are to a thief breaking in. I know if my children and yours were friends I would not let my kids play at your house. There are too many stories of kids getting hold of a parents gun and killing themselves. When I was a teen friends of mine brought a gun to do target practice in the mountains. They started "playing around" thank God no one was hurt, turned out there was one bullet left in the chamber.... | ||
| doulamomma Citizen Username: Doulamomma Post Number: 1578 Registered: 3-2002 |
Don't statistics say someone is more likely to be killed by their own gun than to kill an intruder? I grew up in a house with guns & was taught how to use them & respect them. They were kept locked up (wouldn't be that much help re. intruder, I suppose). Still, I choose not to own them (and feel strongly) - especially because I have young children. We have an alarm system (with a sign in front advertising it) and have left some prickly bushes near lower windows. We have good locks, decent exterior lighting (& a big dog). | ||
| Peter J. Watts Citizen Username: Peter_watts Post Number: 40 Registered: 3-2006  |
Buy a gun get a lock for it. Most police departments give locks out for free so it won't cost you anything. I wouldn't be afraid of owning a gun as long as you're careful. | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1727 Registered: 10-2005  |
smarty- buy a gun if you see fit, just be wise about owning one. -SLK | ||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 1202 Registered: 5-2005  |
Think twice about the gun. You need to keep this locked away somewhere safe with a lock on it, no ammo in it. What would be the chance of you getting to the gun safe, unlocking it, taking off the lock, putting in the ammo etc in time?...As someone else already posted, a lot a fatal accidents happen with guns. All areas have "issues" but this area is a good one. Get an alarm system, they have breakglass detectors etc, so you don't need window locks. Just be alert, but please don't lock yourself away thinking about what "could" happen, as it probably never will and you will just worry yourself silly. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1144 Registered: 7-2005  |
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob97.html That link is a pretty good place to start. Might I reccomend a Glock? (www.glock.com) Or a short-barrel 10 or 12 gauge shotgun. Whatever you decide to do, make sure to know the workings of the firearm, and be sure to keep it clean and well maintained. Oh yeah...here is a link to the parts and different types of shotguns. http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_types.htm Best of luck. (Oh, and by the way. The statistics are like that because people get a gun and are either A. Not careful or B. Dont know how to use/maintain one.) | ||
| kevin Supporter Username: Kevin Post Number: 740 Registered: 2-2002 |
I don't have a gun in my house. My father had one in the house since before I was born. To this day, I never saw it, but saw photos of my father cleaning it in our house. I also recall when I was about 10, I once went over to my friend's house up the road. He told me that the previous night, they had an intruder in the house. His father kept a gun in his nightstand. When they were awoken by the intruder entering the house, his father grabbed the gun and told the intruder (who was downstairs) that he had a gun and better get out of the house immediately. I'm not sure if any other words were exchanged, but he then fired a bullet into the wall of the hallway - an outside wall. The intruder left very quickly, never to return. They called the police for investigation. I don't know if anyone was apprehended. Back then, we both thought that was cool.... | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1504 Registered: 10-2004  |
what red said. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 787 Registered: 10-2005 |
My best friend growing up shot himself with his dads gun (shutgun, in a case, locked, with Ammo locked elsewhere...didn't matter when the time came)....it's part of my hesitancy. Unfortunately, family allergies mean a dog isn't going to happen. Alarm system is intriguing, but I imagine it is not useful when it is off, which is the position it will be during the day when the house is wide open anyway, which is why the gun continues to spring to mind....and obviously wife would have to learn to use it too, and be willing. Again, it's not the break-in while I'm on vacation that I'm protecting against....but perhaps maybe that's what I should focus on, and that will have a trickle down affect on my real concerns? Maybe pepper spray? Maybe there's no real danger, ands its just a mind-f**k I'm trapped in as a young pappa? | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1777 Registered: 2-2005 |
If you've got kids in the house, a gun for home defense doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Keeping it perfectly secured AND easily accessible would seem to be mutually exclusive goals - for a home invasion or even a simple midnight break-in, how much time would you really have? You've got to lock the gun - which means that you'll need to unlock it prior to use. You may decide to keep the gun securely locked and unloaded during the day, and then load it and 'prep' it in the evening. A good plan, but sooner or later you'll get lazy (no offense - I'm a lazy bastard myself) and then... then something bad could happen. A non-lethal alternative is bear spray: OC spray in a huge 'bear sized' container that lays down a fog that you would NOT believe. For those of you who think OC gas isn't a real defense - PL me and I'll make arrangements to 'test' it with you. You'll need to sign a waiver, of course, because you're going to be very, very, very unhappy.  Would it be better to have a gun when you needed it? Absolutely... provided that you were well trained, KEPT yourself in practice, had the gun to hand when required (without leaving the damned thing around for kids to find)... it's a tough call. I think that if you really are serious about buying a gun, get some advice from someone that actually owns one - call the local chapter of the NRA and get yourself signed up for some safety and orientation classes. Remember, if you're serious about home defense you'll need to practice! It's not enough to make the purchase - you need to stay current (even with a non lethal alternative). PS - one last thought - granted that you will do anything to protect your family, you're going to have to spend a lot of 'mental training time' making sure that you'll be able to blow someone away when the time comes. Sounds odd, I know, but you need to have your reactions 'pre-planned' (this is where repetitive training comes in). If you have any illusions about 'shooting to wound' or 'scaring him away with a warning shot', you really need to speak with an expert. Buying a gun means that you're 100% prepared, mentally and physically, to use lethal force. PPS - I'm not making a case AGAINST lethal force - hell, I was disappointed when I found out claymore mines were illegal. I mean... someone come into your house illegally, what's wrong with a little booby trap? But no - that makes ME the criminal somehow. Good luck! | ||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 1209 Registered: 5-2005 |
No-one ever wants to imagine anything happening to someone they love. You are right, possessions can be replaced, people can't. You are obviously worrying yourself over this. Is there something that has happened that has had an impact on you? Has something happened close to where you live, or to someone you know? While I hope that's not the case, it doesn't mean it's going to happen to you. Burglars etc are extremely unlikely to strike during daylight hours. An alarm system can be set so that if your family are in the home, but not going out, that the perimeter can be alarmed so that they can move about freely, you can also disable a zone (i've never worked this out yet!) so that if you wanted the window open, it could be, but the rest of the perimeter could be armed. An alarm company could explain all your options to you. Please try and relax, enjoy your new home, relish in the fact that you have a complete family, give them all a hug and a kiss and sleep well. SOP | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 686 Registered: 4-2006 |
How about a tank? And an anti-aircraft gun, just in case? | ||
| emmie Supporter Username: Emmie Post Number: 759 Registered: 3-2002  |
I have a gun, 22 Ruger locked up with 300 rounds of amo. I have a permit for it and and go to Ray's to practice. I have never regretted getting it and as long as it is locked up it is fine. In fact no one even knows I have it except for me, and of course the permit guys. BTW, I have no kids to worry about. I might think otherwise if I had kids in the house. | ||
| kevin Supporter Username: Kevin Post Number: 741 Registered: 2-2002 |
I was going to suggest a Taser or something that shoots non-lethal rubber bullets... NEW JERSEY: Illegal New Jersey State Law. New Jersey Stat. Ann. Title 2C. New Jersey Code of Criminal Justice. Chapter 39-1. Prohibited weapons and devices. (Section "r" summarized from Chapter 2C:39-1) "Weapon" means anything readily capable of lethal use or of inflicting serious bodily injury. The term includes, but is not limited to all (4) stun guns; and any weapon or (this section refers to tear gas and has been updated in 1995) other device which projects, releases, or emits tear gas or any other substance intended to produce temporary physical discomfort or permanent injury through being vaporized or otherwise dispensed in the air. (t) "Stun gun" means any weapon or other device which emits an electrical charge or current intended to temporarily or permanently disable a person. Senate, No. 2871 -- L.1985, c. 360 Senate Bill No. 2781, as amended by the Senate Law, Public Safety and Defense Committee, prohibits as a crime of the fourth degree the possession of a stun gun by any person, including a law enforcement officer. A crime of the fourth degree carries a penalty of imprisonment for up to 18 months, a fine of up to $7,500, or both. Prior to being amended the bill classified possession of a crime in the third degree. {Editor?s Note: According to Len Lawson of NJ Legislative Council, (609) 292-4625) NJ does not classify crimes in felonies versus misdemeanors. The highest crimes are in first degree on down to fourth degree. A fourth degree penalty is a serious charge and is generally considered a misdemeanor in common terms. It is however an indictable offense. A fourth degree crime does contain "a presumption of non-custodial sentencing," meaning that there is not imprisonment if there are no prior convictions. In some cases the sentencing is obviated from one?s record if there is a period of good behavior following the charge.} The committee amended the bill to include a provision authorizing the Attorney General, at his discretion, to exempt law enforcement officers from the prohibition against possession stun guns. The bill also was amended by the committee to include stun guns in the definition of "weapon" in paragraph r. N.J.S. 2C:39-1. (Chapter 2C:39-1) (h) Stun guns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any stun gun is guilty of a crime in the fourth degree. SUMMARY: Possession is banned of Stunning Devices in New Jersey. | ||
| combustion Citizen Username: Spontaneous Post Number: 115 Registered: 4-2006  |
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." As I am NOT part of "a well regulated militia," I don't feel I have the right, or even the need, to keep and bear arms. Our rabid insistence on keeping firearms available so we can arm ourselves against the "bad guys" is exactly why criminals are able to get guns. Police need guns, the National Guard needs guns, the Military needs guns. By defending a vaguely and poorly written amendment to the Constitution we are giving criminals easier access to weapons. A good friend is a police officer and every time I see him in uniform, the outline of his vest clearly visible, I think about this fact. My Grandmother does not need a gun, yet she has two handguns, and a shotgun. Do I really think she's safer because of this? Not at all, unless a burglar is nice enough to call ahead to say he's going to break in so she could go out and buy some ammo first. I'm curious, is anyone here from a country that has tough gun control laws? Please share with us, how does your country of origin stack against the U.S. in areas such as drive-by shootings? Armed robberies? Accidental shooting? | ||
| akb Citizen Username: Akb Post Number: 438 Registered: 12-2001 |
combustion, countries with tough gun control laws also have far fewer guns in the hands of criminals and lower rates of violent crime (as you probably know). chicken and egg. Most guns used illegally in the US were _originally_ purchased legally. Removing legal guns from the system drastically reduces the number of weapons which can fall into criminal hands. My husband is an ex-cop and has weapons. Like any responsible gun owner, he knows they are next to useless in a breakin, because if you have your gun locked with ammo stored well away and also locked, you don't have time to access it. If you want a weapon under the bed, for your own peace of mind, a nightstick will do. It is too late to google the stats now but the likelihood of being injured with your own weapon is multiple times the likelihood of using it in self-defence. You don't need a gun and, based on your original safety-motivated post, you don't want one. | ||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 1221 Registered: 5-2005 |
England..... My Father enjoyed shooting (target and clays) for many a year as a hobby. He was very very good at it. He followed the letter of the law, had the required checks etc. After Hungerford (or Dunblaine, I can't think of which one) the gun bans came into effect and all handguns etc/semi autos and whatever else had to be surrendered and they were given a "financial consideration" which was no-where near the cost people had paid.... This meant that all the LEGAL owners surrendered their hobbies....those on the other side of the law simply laughed.. England doesn't have the same number of gun related crimes that the US does, but it is a much smaller country. I can't recall hearing of drive-by shootings, but there are armed robberies, some of them fatal, murders etc, same as here. There was actually a point made during the last olimpics or triathlon, where the British team should never have competed... it was said that since the Country has banned guns etc, how should they be able to compete? As it is, the competitors go abroad to practice...!! | ||
| red Citizen Username: Redy67 Post Number: 5862 Registered: 2-2003 |
smarty there are all sorts of alarm systems you can get if you feel that unsafe. You can get windows and doors wired. You can set the alarm during the day to allow only certain doors to be open. You can get a panic button that you can carry with you at all times. | ||
| combustion Citizen Username: Spontaneous Post Number: 117 Registered: 4-2006 |
Soparents, England might be smaller which would contribute to an overall smaller number of gun deaths (murder, suicide and accidental), but it shouldn't change the number per capita. According to the CDC, in 1994 the U.S. had 14.24 gun related deaths per 100,000 people. Canada had 4.31, England and Wales had 0.41. | ||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 1227 Registered: 5-2005 |
Wow, a big difference.. I would like to know the numbers for 2004 (10 years on) for US, Canada and England/Wales. I have a feeling but could be wrong, that the English number at least has increased. Would this be published anywhere combustion? SOP | ||
| combustion Citizen Username: Spontaneous Post Number: 119 Registered: 4-2006 |
The latest number the CDC has for the US is 2003, 10.36 per 100,000, which is an improvement, but still too high. They did not have numbers for the other countries. I looked around and found numbers for 1999 which seemed to be referencing WHO, but I couldn't find these numbers at WHO's website, so take them with a grain of salt (or look for yourself, maybe I missed it). In 1999 it was U.S. at 10.58, Canada at 3.34 and England and Wales at 0.35. In my searching I found an odd side note, England and Wales seem to have had an increase in FAKE guns being used in crimes. Though this may be less dangerous, I'm sure it's just as terrifying for the victim. | ||
| Ligeti Man Meat Citizen Username: Ligeti Post Number: 685 Registered: 7-2002  |
I read somewhere that 90% of the world's guns are in America. Statistically, they are almost meaningless when it comes to protecting people. They also end up killing a lot of innocent people. This puerile fantasy of "blowing someone away" is a highly unlikely outcome. Children are often killed. Reject the stupidity of guns. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11866 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think most burglaries around here are done during the day when nobody is home. Unless you are in a cash business and some might suspect you stash undeclared cash in your homes the possiblity of a home invasion are minimal. You are better off with an alarm than a gun. Handguns aren't easy to shoot effectively and anyone who has ever had a case of "Buck Fever" when hunting will understand that it isn't easy to kill anything, let alone a human being. You have to be willing to shoot. Just waiving the gun around isn't going to protect you. | ||
| Ligeti Man Meat Citizen Username: Ligeti Post Number: 687 Registered: 7-2002 |
Right on, Bob. Displaying a gun is going to thrust you into an even more deadly situation. | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2467 Registered: 7-2003 |
I’m all for having guns and using them for sport, I currently have three. If you want to keep your family safe, you have to follow a lot of precautions, lock box, trigger lock, keeping the ammo else ware. So using it to protect your home is nearly impossible. Hear noise. Investigate, spot bad guy Run to room get keys Go to closet unlock box Unlock trigger guard Go to basement get Ammo Load clip Lock and load Go find bad guy | ||
| newone Citizen Username: Newone Post Number: 394 Registered: 8-2001 |
You can always try one of these for any room in the house... http://contractorstools.com/gunvaultmini_vault.html | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 789 Registered: 10-2005 |
Kevin, so am I reading your post correctly that you can own a handgun, but not Pepper Spray, Tasers, stun guns, etc? | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 729 Registered: 7-2003 |
Ditto what Glock said but I recommend a Sig Arms. Best handgun around. Go to MPD, get a license (takes approx. 2 mths), purchase your firearm and go directly to a gun range. Spend time with an instructor to learn how to use your firearm and safety rules. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1987 Registered: 5-2001 |
Brett: Really good point (and funny too) | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4383 Registered: 12-2001  |
I don't think the quality of the weapon is at issue. There are any number of good enough weapons. What is at issue is training and readiness and the downsides to keeping a loaded handgun in you nightstand. What are some scenarios? 1. You see somebody up to no good on your property. I would think 911 will do the trick in this case. 2. You are awakened at night by noises downstairs. This is the one case where having a gun might be useful because you could hold the line of the stairs while dialing 911. Just don't shoot your drunk teenager or spouse getting a midnight snack. 3. Somebody knocks on the door at 9:30 P.M. You answer the door and they stick a gun in your face. Your handgun won't do you any good in this situation. | ||
| newone Citizen Username: Newone Post Number: 395 Registered: 8-2001 |
For those first starting out buying a gun, I would actually recommend getting a revolver over a semi-auto. They are less complicated, fewing parts (safeties, magazine releases, slide releases, etc) and very simple to use. You could also look for a DAO (double action only) where there is no hammer on the pistol so all you have to do is pull the trigger. Learn to use it correctly with an instructor and practice, practice, practice... | ||
| Ken Zeidner Citizen Username: Blackflag Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2003 |
The number of gun deaths is not as important to me as the crime rate in the two countries. From an article on the web: "Gun crime is just part of an increasingly lawless environment. From 1991 to 1995, crimes against the person in England’s inner cities increased 91 percent. And in the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England’s rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America’s, and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police. In a United Nations study of crime in 18 developed nations published in July, England and Wales led the Western world’s crime league, with nearly 55 crimes per 100 people." And with regard to the 2nd Amendment, whether it applies to Militia or The People, the whole Bill of Rights can be seen as an antigovernment document rather than an antimajoritarian document. As such, The People have a right to defend themselve against government abuses. And before you say this is over the top, just remember Nazi Germany's first step was to outlaw guns. | ||
| Billy Jack Citizen Username: Kendalbill Post Number: 179 Registered: 6-2002  |
I have to believe nearly everyone has considered getting a gun at some point. Thank God I changed my mind. I don't know what a gun would give me. I don't think it would be a sense of security. When I think of maintaining a safe home, I think of it being gun free. When I look at statistics and see the number of accidents with handguns, The decision is made for me. There is one other aspect that people don't consider. I don't know if it will make a difference for you- most people I mention it to just shrug it off. But it would matter to me: It's friday night. I hear a sound downstairs. I get my gun. As I move into the livingroom I see a robber in the dining room looting the silverware. He turns, holding something. I fire. Now, many of you would say I'd be justified in shooting him- he broke in to my house, he is stealing my property, I need to protect my wife and kids....but is it really proportionate? In Maplewood, where the houses are close together and the police arrive immediately when you call 911, is shooting an intruder the appropriate response? And whether you feel justified or not, wouldn't shooting and killing someone haunt you? Do you really need that if there is ANY other way to handle the situation? | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4385 Registered: 12-2001 |
Oh, puhleeze. The types of weapons one may legally own are not much defense against organized military units. You may have noticed that the insurgents in Iraq aren't using handguns and shotguns against our soldiers. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 793 Registered: 10-2005 |
No matter how unlikely, here's the fear.....all took place in Broad Daylight of the morning, in a lovely neighborhood in Richmond Va: www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10777028/ I used to live in that city (richmond), and have many friends there still, and initially, everyone tried to concoct a connection, such as that the Husband was secretly involved in drugs, or that they were in debt to loan sharks, etc. etc. I guess it's easier to believe you brought it on yourself, with something so horrible. When it came out that it was purely random, people were numb with words. It's been eating away at me ever since. I've spent quite a bit of time learning on the topic of family safety, because it's my responsibility to protect the family (mostly by default, since 2/5 of us can't even walk :-) ). From what I've read, most break-ins (violent and non-violent) actually occur during the middle of the day (as was the case here). During the day, locks and alarms are rendered useless, as Homeowners typically turn them off and leave the doors open, or are playing in the back/front yard. So what the heck can you do???? These things really do happen to real people like you and I (and Fran Drescher) I suppose I just want to feel that I'd have a fighting chance somehow, someway if the absoluate worst were to happen. But I realize that you just can't jail yourself into your own home. I've witnessed the Maplewood Police response time...it's incredible. (Seconds/minutes). I have faith in them, and don't have faith with my Trigger Finger, but I'm not sure what other options you've got. Initially, the thought of a Gun and Gun training sounds comforting...but frankly, I think the realistic situation above is that you wouldn't have access to it in the worst situation detailed above. Maybe the answer is a panic button on each floor, direct to your alarm co.? | ||
| Ken Zeidner Citizen Username: Blackflag Post Number: 78 Registered: 9-2003 |
Billy Jack: Shooting an intruder in your home is ALWAYS legally justified. You have no duty to warn or retreat in your own home. tjohn: THANK YOU. Finally someone who sees eye-to-eye with me. This is why gun control is bogus. They start by outlawing the huge stuff, but we all know the real agenda is to outlaw all guns. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1829 Registered: 5-2001 |
Stop watching local TV news and reading stories like that one on MSNBC and you'll feel a lot better. Statistically speaking, your family is in far, far greater danger from you and your friends than they are from complete strangers. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4386 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ken, Not sure we see eye-to-eye. I favor the control of military weapons. I don't favor the control of weapons legal for game hunting. I think the idea of an armed populace standing as a balance to abusive government is a recipe for anarchy, not democracy. | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 1647 Registered: 4-2004  |
Smarty- Owning a gun is no small purchase. Handling, firing, cleaning and storing a weapon becomes a lifestyle change, and achieving the skill and proficiency to use it (or not use it) takes years. I would not recommend it and most Citizen Crime Watch groups don't either. I remember a statistic some time back that a majority of Americans shot in their own homes were shot with their own guns. This means that someone breaking into your house may be more likely to find that gun before you can reach it. And with children, it will be a major temptation to handle that weapon when the parents are not around. You are an intelligent MOL poster and I'm sure that any decision you reach will be well thought out. But I think you've started the thread because you have some worries about this purchase. My recommendation is to talk about emergency plans with the family and practice your 9-1-1 skills. |
