| Author | Message | ||
     eliz Supporter Username: Eliz Post Number: 1525 Registered: 5-2001 |
When we moved to Maplewood I had this surprisingly insecure feeling that I never had in the city. I think because living in apartments (to me) feels more safe than a house which is open for any possible intruder that could want to get in. It really didn't help that within 3 months the woman across the street was brutally murdered in her home. As anti-gun as I am I did briefly think about it but as far as I'm concerned it just didn't make sense for all the reasons Brett so eloquently outlined and also because there is a pretty good possibility that the gun you buy to protect yourself could be used against you or your wife. What do you think the scenario would be if there were an intruder during the day and your wife got the gun? It's quite possible the intruder doesn't even have a gun and could overpower her with much worse consequences. Your gun can also be stolen in a robbery and used against someone else. Instead we did get an alarm system with an extra panic button upstairs in the bedroom. It made me feel much more secure and for the first 18 months the alarm was armed at all times even when I was home. We have a big dog now as well and that certainly helps. A dog is your best warning system of any disturbance - are breeds that are hypoallergenic at all possible? | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2468 Registered: 7-2003 |
My sister’s new house has a Panic room. It’s pretty basic. There is a steel door on one of the walk-in closets (not really noticeable) and a bar that swings down from the side that locks the door completely. There is a thin sheet of steel on the other three walls. In the Bathroom there is a small 12 inch square safe door, so that they can open it , reach in, and unlock the door if a child locks themselves in. In the back corner there is a land line phone, a cell phone (one to call 911, the other so the police can call you when they get there), a flash light and the safe. There are no video monitors, ventilation, or fancy gizmos. The room wouldn’t stand up to a full scale assault, but it will easily withstand a 15 minute 911 response time. | ||
| Ken Zeidner Citizen Username: Blackflag Post Number: 79 Registered: 9-2003 |
tjohn: One man's anarchy is another man's liberty (just ask those dudes around in 1776). Brett: A statistic that says most Americans shot in their home are shot by their own gun can be misleading. How many were shot? How many times was the burglar shot? How many were suicides? etc., etc., etc. More importantly, how often is a person not armed killed in their home? Here is an excerpt from a critique of gun control book: "The medical examiner of Kings County WA investigated 743 deaths from firearms. The results were 84% suicides, 13% homicides, and 3% accidents. From the percentages of victims (family, friends, and strangers) Kellermann concocted his statistic of a gun being 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder. [The problem is] it did not report on deaths in homes without any gun as a control. This is not scientific! Reports from other sources say a family member is 99 times more likely to be killed in a gun-free home than an intruder. Kellermann's statistics are flawed by design." I'm not advocating one way or another, just that decisions should be made on all the facts, not just the ones that tend to support a particular viewpoint. | ||
| K_soze Citizen Username: K_soze Post Number: 415 Registered: 11-2005  |
Shooting an intruder in your home is ALWAYS legally justified. You have no duty to warn or retreat in your own home Ken you're wrong about that. You need to educate yourself on the laws of self defense and how they would apply to you, in your home, under several different circumstances. Posting something like that is gravely misinforming those who may not know better. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4388 Registered: 12-2001  |
Ken, I have never heard the American Revolution described as an anarchist movement. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1830 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ken, If they can't even get the name of the county right, I'd be skeptical of the rest. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 8098 Registered: 5-2001  |
Having a gun in the house with kids..... Well, everyone has addressed that one pretty well. You shouldn't own any weapon that you are not an expert at handling. If you do get a gun, for your own sake and that of your family's, please take lots of lessons and practice regularly. Your wife, too. Personally, I don't understand why you have to take lessons and get a learner's permit to drive a car, but not a gun. That's a question for another thread, tho. At any rate, others are right. You can alarm anything in any manner. My dad has alarms on his window screens so that he can leave windows open. We have double settings on some windows so that they can be alarmed open or closed. We also took down all the tall shrubs around our house years ago; don't let anything grow tall enough to hide a window. Trip lights are good. But, basic common sense is the best protection. And, even then, sometimes crappy things happen. Anywhere, anytime. You can go nuts obsessing on this. When Son of Sam was running around in NYC back in the 70s, I was a teenager in Ohio. My mother didn't want me going out at night with my friends because of him. How ludicrous was that? | ||
| Ken Zeidner Citizen Username: Blackflag Post Number: 80 Registered: 9-2003 |
tjohn: I know some Brits that still feel the American revolution was an anarchist movement. K_soze: If you are implying that their are certain circumstances in which shooting an intruder is not justified (e.g., defense of property), what's the difference? An armed homeowner will always claim that he or she feared imminent bodily injury , which ALWAYS makes the shooting justifiable. Who has the burden of proof and what the burden of persuasion is may vary from state to state, but, as that old saying goes, "I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4389 Registered: 12-2001 |
No doubt, and Winston Churchill used the same language to describe Gandhi as he did to describe Adolf Hitler. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 794 Registered: 10-2005 |
Brett, Eliz- I think you've both hit the nail on the head with those posts...particularly, the reverse-chlaustrophobia experienced when moving to the burbs. I was determined to lick this fear (which when I type it out, it seems unfounded) without the need for weapons, etc....I think I experienced my frustration point, though, when I realized that my brand new windows with super dooper locks and tempered glass were USELESS with my A/C unit installed just this weekend. Safe-secure feeling, literally "out the window". Maybe this is just a passing fear all new parents have, that eventually subsides, only to be replaced by the fear of your now teenagers riding in the car with Drunk Drivers. Maybe I'll look into Alarms....my concern there is that it'll be used for 6 months, and then slowly go away....or that it will go off accidently often, causing great frustration. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4390 Registered: 12-2001 |
Smarty, When I install my window A.C. units, I use a few discretely placed screws to make sure that the window can't be opened. Partly, this is to prevent accidentally opening the window and having the AC fall out and partly to prevent unauthorized entry. | ||
| K_soze Citizen Username: K_soze Post Number: 417 Registered: 11-2005 |
Ken -what's the difference? An armed homeowner will always claim that he or she feared imminent bodily injury , which ALWAYS makes the shooting justifiable So lets say Billy is coming to visit his grandmother that he hasn't seen in 15 years, he gets to her street and finds her house..only it's yours, it looks exactly like he remembers only her home is two houses down. He wants to surprise her so he doesn't knock, he opens the door and stands in the foyer. At this point (by your reasoning) you nave no duty to warn him. I guess you'd be ok with shooting him? Hopefully the 12 would be ok with that also. FWIW, I live by that motto too, but we have to show restraint and use better judgement. Ever thought about where in the house the incident occurs? If you're standing at the back door and the intruder is coming through the front (providing threre is no other family in the house) you'd better go out that back door. That's the first thing juries have been looking at, did the homeowner have some means of egress? If so did the homeowner purposely/knowingly advance on the subject...and if so, how could you consider the subject a threat. I don't think it's right but that's how things are going, especially here in NJ. | ||
| Billy Jack Citizen Username: Kendalbill Post Number: 180 Registered: 6-2002  |
A couple of things: Ken and others- I look at this issue as different than "gun control". This is a much more practical issue- how to protect my family. If I really thought a gun would make any diffrence I would subject myself to any law, waiting period, background check necessary. I just don't believe a gun would bring any good to the situation. I grew up in a semi rural part of Connecticut. When I was 16 they had their first murder. One acre zoning. And yet I feel much safer in Maplewood. Why? Because I know my neighbors and I know that if someone was stupid enough to crawl though a window I could yell at the top of my lungs and about a dozen people would wake up and the police would be here in about three minutes. I can't imaging how a "home invasion" type crime could occur on my street. I think it comes down to one's personal feeling of safety. And I feel much safer in Maplewood than anywhere else I have ever lived, primarily because the homes are close and the neighborhood is friendly. This sounds like a "soft" deterrent compared to a gun, and I'll admit that it is less dramatic, but I would tell you that it is far more effective in keeping crime down than equipping yourself with a Glock. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3457 Registered: 5-2001  |
One point I haven't seen made yet on this thread... if you are into target shooting or collecting and you have kids, surely you can store your guns somewhere out of your house, right? Like at the practice range? That would almost entirely mitigate the danger to your kids, assuming you don't enable them to get the guns from wherever they're kept. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 697 Registered: 4-2006 |
Seems to me that using common sense matters more than having a gun. If you have people who come in and work in your home on a regular basis, investigate them first, very carefully as well as any friends or family that accompany them. People who know your home or possessions may be the overwhelming source of home invasions and robbery. If you are in a business in which you handle a great deal of cash routinely, or regularly advertise your excess on your person, you should take greater care about your routines and be aware of your surroundings at all times. Also consider how possible thieves would look at things. Years ago an old cop told me never to put a home security sign on the lawn. He said it makes people think you have something that is worth stealing! | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 1649 Registered: 4-2004  |
Ken- You've actually opened a whole new can of worms- how many accidental deaths in the home can be attributed to firearms, and how many suicides-by-gun would have been attempted by other means if no guns were available? Whatever the numbers, the presence of a gun in a household is a serious addition. All possible dangers should be identified and contemplated before buying a firearm. | ||
| Ken Zeidner Citizen Username: Blackflag Post Number: 81 Registered: 9-2003 |
Brett: Agreed! | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 1118 Registered: 1-2006  |
Smarty, Getting away from the specifics of gun ownership, I'd like to address what motivated you to consider one. I believe it was the story about the team of criminals who murdered families in their own home. This lead to a sense of fear about the safety of your family, which you as a young father, feel rests on your shoulders. Then you went into solve-the-problem mode. Which lead you to "should I buy a gun?" The gun idea may make you feel more secure, but like the windows, it will be only temporary if news stories like that creep into your head and keep you awake. In reality if those two murderous intruders entered your home AND you had a loaded weapon it would still have been a terrible situation. And really, who knows how it would have changed the outcome. However, if you are interested in protecting your children from untimely death, lets step back and look at the numbers.   The number one thing to prevent is accidents. So if you start out protecting you kids by trying to prevent accidents, is your first move still to buy a gun? Does the less likely, but more newsworthy, homicide trump the risk of a firearms accident? For me, no. J.B. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 3014 Registered: 12-2001  |
Buy a shotgun and go clay target shooting. That way you use it and learn how to handle it, and it isn't in some noisy indoor shooting range. Then buy a Range Rover. Consider getting a fly rod instead. Don't keep any ammo in the house, and when Stranger-Danger comes, stand at the top of the stairs and loudly work the pump. Supress the shake in your voice and say "get out of here or I'll shoot!" When your four-year-old looks up the steps at you, hide the gun behind your bathrobe. Secretly you want the gun for when you have to sleep alone in the house, and grown man that you are, you feel frightened. On those nights, put in under the covers with you. Put it away again before your wife gets back with the kids. When you come back from St Lucia and find your back window open, the first thing you'll check will be your enpty gun drawer. They took nothing else. Why should they? Consider their elation. Your gun might already "have a body on it." If I had given in to a tepid impulse to buy a gun that I had 12 years ago, I can say I would have had a gun for 12 years and gotten no defense out of it at all. Consider buying a Telecaster instead. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 797 Registered: 10-2005 |
themp...very very very funny. JB. Extremely interesting way of making a salient point. I wonder how many of those Homicides were actually committed by the parent too (thus stripping those out would further reduce that number) | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider  Post Number: 14753 Registered: 1-2003  |
You can still make a case in favor of owning a gun for the purpose of protecting your home. But the cost is high: You have to be ready to shoot to kill. It is not to threaten someone. Is this in your personality? You have to train and practice. Constantly. By getting a gun, you have raised the stakes. Are you ready for this? Some are. My guess is that most of us are not. You may kill someone mistakenly, even the suspect, who may not have been there to rob you. Or maybe he was, but he just wanted your jewelry or electronics, not any trouble. Glock points out that accidents are due to insufficient care or training. True, but that doesn't mean everyone (or Smarty Jones) can and will be properly careful and trained. I'm not categorically opposed to gun ownership. I just don't think it makes sense for most people around here. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1145 Registered: 7-2005  |
Everyone always says "Nothing like that is going to happen" or "That won't happen" etc etc Yeah until it happens. When the hoods bust through your backdoor looking for hostages and/or a place to hide out from the cops. Then you'll wish you had the pump and/or the .45 Alarms may alert the police...but I guarantee you they dont travel as fast as a bullet. Whether or not it will be your bullet or theirs, when the time comes...is up to you. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14757 Registered: 1-2003 |
Everyone always says "Nothing like that is going to happen" or "That won't happen" etc etc. Yeah, until it happens. When you get your gun and you lose your nerve and he gets the first shot in. Or when your well trained kids open up the gun safe and get hurt. You're not wrong, Glock, but there are many possibilities, and a gun isn't any complete assurance. | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2473 Registered: 7-2003 |
I qualified as a Navy Sharpshooter for 5 straight years (not sniper, I’m not that good). I also spent 11 months on the Vessel Board Search and Seizure team in the Gulf, boarding and holding any ships leaving Iraq. I have three guns at home, one being a Desert Eagle. Currently I go to the range about 10 times a year. If three people came into my home at night, I doubt I would be able to hit all three. There just isn’t enough room for a fire fight. With luck I would shoot once, and the sound would cause them to run. Have you ever tried to spin around real fast in a hallway with a Shotgun? It’s not easy. And when you got trained on using a gun, it’s how to handle it safety, and fire at a target, not how to defend your home. Saying that you have a gun for home protection is a joke. That being said, if there were riots in Newark, you can bet I would have my guns out and loaded. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 798 Registered: 10-2005 |
C'mon....how hard can it be? Flip your wrist so the gun opens up.... Slip in a couple rounds and re flip your wrist so the gun is cocked. Spin the revolver with your index finger and thumb so the intruder knows you are serious Consider Spinning the gun a few times on your finger, just for effect. Fire at will, hopefully getting 9-10 shots out of a 6 shot revolver. Blow the smoke away from the barrell victoriously..... | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2474 Registered: 7-2003 |
Exactly, that’s why I have three. So I can roll across the living room floor with one in each hand, firing like mad, and have one extra I can toss to my trusty sidekick. | ||
| catmanjac Citizen Username: Catmanjac Post Number: 289 Registered: 2-2004  |
 | ||
| Ligeti Man Meat Citizen Username: Ligeti Post Number: 688 Registered: 7-2002  |
Let's just face facts here, can we? Most gun purchases are by men seeking to boost their self-image. Makes them feel powerful. I really believe it. I've been around gun people. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1147 Registered: 7-2005 |
nice generalization of all "gun people" | ||
| K_soze Citizen Username: K_soze Post Number: 426 Registered: 11-2005 |
he has no clue what the hell he's talking about | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4392 Registered: 12-2001 |
I plan to buy a nice chrome-plated .45 before my daughters start dating. I'll be cleaning it on the kitchen table when I meet their dates and explain my policies. | ||
| newone Citizen Username: Newone Post Number: 396 Registered: 8-2001 |
See SUV thread... the same thing was said there... Still waiting to hear that we're making up for our "small" manhoods...unless you're a women shooter, then I guess they're making up for small breasts? | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4393 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ligeti, You wrote, "I really believe it. I've been around gun people". Are you serious? If so, you really need to get out a bit more. It's kind of a self-fulfilling observation. Those gun-owners who don't own guns to impress other people probably don't even advertise the fact that they own guns. Anyway, if you own a .22 rifle for target practice, I can assure you it isn't a macho thing. OTOH, if you own a military imitation weapon, it is more likely that you are trying to make a point. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 3015 Registered: 12-2001 |
Toys are awesome. I would love to own a gun, just to screw around with it. If I lived out on a farm, I'd have a rimfire 22 for sure. I'd get a Savage just for the name. Or a Marlin. But I don't think I would want a gun with my two sons in the house - especially a handgun. I bet having a phone in each upstairs bedroom would do you more good in a home invasion than a gun. Bad things happen, but home invasions in our town are pretty rare. Anyone catch "In Cold Blood" the other night? I bet the Clutters had a gun. | ||
| newone Citizen Username: Newone Post Number: 397 Registered: 8-2001 |
themp - just have a cell phone as a backup in case your phone lines are cut. | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2475 Registered: 7-2003 |
My Desert Eagle is just a toy. There is no good reason for anyone to have a gun like that.  That;s not me, but the gun is absurd | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 8108 Registered: 5-2001 |
I don't think that small-breasted women buy guns to make up for anything. I think it's more that large-breasted women don't buy guns. Think about how hard it would be to assume the position posted in Brett's picture with a couple of bowling balls in the way.... Oh. While we're at it, I'm thinking about buying a gnu. It would be more eco-friendly than a gas mower and I think that the neighborhood kids would enjoy it. Any thoughts? | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4395 Registered: 12-2001 |
You probably need an license for a gnu. What is wrong with a standard or miniature goat. Lower maintenance costs and easier to find parts. | ||
| K_soze Citizen Username: K_soze Post Number: 433 Registered: 11-2005 |
Get back to the lady shooting with the bowling balls, tank top or bikini? | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4396 Registered: 12-2001 |
Does Ann Coulter carry? |
