| Author | Message | ||
     twig Citizen Username: Twig Post Number: 184 Registered: 5-2001 |
Can someone on this board explain this to me? Just came from the supermarket where, for the umpteenth time in the past few months, I observed someone who demonstrated no signs of a disability parking in a parking space for the disabled. This time it was a 40ish woman and her teenage daughter. I realize that not all disabilities are apparent but, based on the way they were speeding around the store throwing things in the cart while yakking on their cell phones, it certainly did not seem that either of these two appeared to have any sort of disability that would merit a handicap parking tag. I have seen this same behavior over and over again in recent months. In fact, in the past year, I can think of only once that I happened to see someone with an actual disability use a handicap space. The elderly seem not to use them unless necessary. More often than not, I have seen 30ish-40ish persons pulling in, reaching into the glove compartment for a tag and hanging it on the mirror. (Guess it would be embarassing for them to have that type of tag hanging from their mirror all the time since their friends would see it and wonder what's up.) Where do these people get the tags? Do they make them on their computers or bribe some DMV clerk? I do not have a disability and don't use those spaces but I am starting to wonder just how many people do scam the system? Are there only a few of us out there who are not? Have the selfish louts so taken over these spaces that the concept of handicap parking be eliminated? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15248 Registered: 10-2001  |
Very few things get me as pissed off as what you've discussed here. I have yelled at people when its obvious that they are not disabled and they're parking in those spots anyway because they whip out their tag. Most of the time, it's someone who has a relative who is either elderly or disabled and the tag is given to them legally. But they're not supposed to be taking advantage of it when those other folks aren't in the car with them. It's truly disgusting. | ||
| Smoochie Citizen Username: Smoochie Post Number: 108 Registered: 8-2005 |
Brett knows what to do to these people!! But seriously, Don't even get me started. I couldn't agree with you more. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1366 Registered: 7-2005  |
7-year old glock : "But mommy, I thought the wheelchair spots were where people parked their wheelchairs and walked into stores?!" | ||
| Soparents Supporter Username: Soparents Post Number: 1817 Registered: 5-2005  |
I don't care whether all other spaces are taken, the disabled should be left free for those who GENUINELY qualify for them, and I don't mean people who woke up with a bad back, or who borrow a friends sticker etc.. | ||
| Psychomom Citizen Username: Psychomom Post Number: 273 Registered: 5-2005 |
I agree that the disabled spaces need to be for those with a genuine disablity, but then it's hard to tell what the disability may be. I have a friend who had sextuple bypass heart surgery 5 years ago. Thank God he is doing well, but he has a handicap tag because he can't walk far and gets asthma attacks...you would never know it to look at him on a good day...so I wouldn't want to be too quick to judge people. My other issue with these spaces is that there are too many of them...like at the Mall there's tons of them usually empty while we circle and wait for a space. That doesn't seem right. | ||
| spw784 Supporter Username: Spw784 Post Number: 916 Registered: 5-2001 |
twig... the tag says right on it, that it is not to be hanging from the rearview mirror while the car is in motion. So one is not supposed to be driving with the tag in place. I put mine on the mirror, just after I've pulled into the space.
There is a DMV form to be filled out by a doctor, who has to certify the disability. The blue hang tags are permanent tags, and the brown tags are temporary tags. Temporary tags (i.e. for broken leg, pregnancy complications, etc) can be applied for through the local PD w/ a doctor certifying the temporary disability, and are only valid for 6 months.
Psychomom: The number of handicapped-accessible spaces is based on the total number of spaces, and is set by state or federal law. There may be too many at the mall, but there are never enough at medical office buildings, the grocery stores, etc. | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2537 Registered: 7-2003 |
I saw a woman at work, park in the handicapped spot every day. It really steamed me. So I was talking to someone who works with her and mentioned that she seamed to walk just fine and that she was abusing the system. She was deaf, I guess it makes sense to not have a deaf person walking through the parking lot. Man did I feel dumb. | ||
| ess Citizen Username: Ess Post Number: 2558 Registered: 11-2001  |
In defense of those who "look" like they are not in need of handicapped spaces: Don't be so quick to judge. Yes, it is horribly inconsiderate and insensitive for someone who truly has no disability to take a handicapped spot simply to save time. However, as Psychomom noted, there are people whose disabilities are not so apparent to the naked eye. A family member of mine has a handicapped tag for a very legitimate reason, yet, on most days, to most onlookers, he looks as though he walks just fine. He's not trying to get a closer spot for the hell of it, and he doesn't deserve to be hassled. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who abuse the system, but please don't assume that everyone with a handicapped tag is guilty. It's just not so. | ||
| Starletta8 Supporter Username: Starletta8 Post Number: 174 Registered: 10-2004 |
Let me put a disclaimer on this post: this is a pet peeve of mine. It is NOT anyone's right to judge those who are in the disabled parking. Someone with a legitimate disability may look like they are "Scamming the system" to the uninformed. I'm one of those people. I've had people actually start berating me when I got out of my car. I am in my 20s and appear to be in good health. Believe me, I've got one of those nasty invisible disabilities. During the hot and humid months a handicapped plaquard is the only thing that keeps me from showing the accumulated damage to my body to the world. My exact disability is a matter that only my doctor and I need to know- not a judgmental neighbor. I was taught to think of handicapped parking as an assistance to continue my life as it was before my illness. My life would be significantly worse without it. Yes, there are those who scam the system. They should be tracked down and punished by law. But my health is none of your business. And your silent judgment- I don't need it. I'm too busy trying not to collapse between the car and the door of my destination. If you want my parking, you've got to take my disability. It's all one package. Several notes: 1. The tags actually state that they are NOT to be on the rearview mirror while driving, since they obstruct the view of the driver. 2. Actually, there's mostly not enough disabled parking. Sorry if it's a pain for some of you, but it's mandated by the ADA. Please think about it from the perspective of those of us who struggle. When the parking's full, I often have to go home and try another day. | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 306 Registered: 10-2004 |
As this concerns my other part-time job, it's intersting to read yoru discussion. Accessible parking, well-designed and all-weather is in never adequate supply as the formula used is worked out on square meters of retail space vs estimated numbers of shoppers (not vehicles, and not shopping hours) - and this also is used to determine to 'right' number of accessible public toilets. Instead of trying to see that all such spaces are designed to be accessible for jsut about everyone anyway, so it doesn't matter who parks where or uses which toilet... (retrofitting is expensive and messy) Here, our disability parking permits are stuck on windscreens. They are issued to the person with the disability, not the driver. so if the passenger uses different vehicles, the permit is on a suction cup for ease of use. Some states have different colours allowing for different distances from buildings and lengths of stay in the parking bay. Someof the disabilities that qualify include things that affect balance, breathing, thinking, spatial recognition and coordination, panic attacks, need to access toilets quickly, things like lupus and chronic fatigue which meant you can't be outside or upright for too long on occasion. I have a friend who requires a double lung transplant before she can have heart surgery to enable her to walk without keeling over. She's 24. Looks hale and hearty but pale. You should see the patronising looks she gets while using her motorised scooter. Why should she have to justify herself to total strangers every time she steps outside her door?? | ||
| twig Citizen Username: Twig Post Number: 185 Registered: 5-2001 |
Wow...interesting responses. I am quite familiar with ADA/504 requirements and absolutely would advocate for the existence of handicapped parking spaces for anyone who has a disability. If there are not enough such spaces, as was suggested by spw784, more should be created. And I fully understand that all disabilities are not visible so I don't assume that everyone parking in such a space is "guilty" of scamming the system. There are times, however, when I have had cause to wonder whether someone using a handicapped space actually was the person with the disability. I never have approached anyone parking in a handicapped space to question the validity of parking there for it is not my right to do so and, obviously, no one need justify their use of a handicapped space to me. But, I truly do wonder about the extent to which this privilege is being abused by family members, friends, and other more unscrupulous individuals who may acquire these tags by other means. I could be wrong but I happen to believe that it is prevalent. What do others believe? And for those of you who have a handicapped tag, do family members use the tag when they have the car or have you ever allowed someone else to use your tag? | ||
| eliz Supporter Username: Eliz Post Number: 1546 Registered: 5-2001 |
This is one of those things I would file under "the small stuff". Think about it really - you have no way of knowing who actually needs the handicap spot and who doesn't. All you know is that you don't need it and that's one big thing to be thankful for. | ||
| Anna Citizen Username: Anna Post Number: 61 Registered: 7-2004 |
Eliz, your response was right on track. Just one more example to add to the list. My husband had heart bypass surgery a few years ago and his docs feel he is doing extremely well. He exercises more than anyone I know and looks as healthy as can be. However, he does have a few rules he needs to follow, whether he likes it or not. Among them: In severely cold weather, he must limit his exposure to the cold as much as possible -- as little outdoor walking as he can manage. In severely hot, humid weather, likewise, he must limit outdoor activity as much as possible. Hence,his need for a handicapped parking tag. He only uses it when absolutely necessary, as on the occasions mentioned here, but to see him walk from the car to a store or office, you'd never guess why. So,although it is sometimes hard to tell from looking at someone why they are parking in a handicapped space, there may be a good reason nevertheless. | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 307 Registered: 10-2004 |
Another point to mention is the nature of the vehicle being used: one of my friends with disabilities is a stroke survivor. Semi-paralysis down one side of his body, and it affects more on some occasions than on others. He's fortunate enough to have a bit of spare money these days. Drives a flaming red Mercedes sports that turns most red-blooded males green with envy. They are convinced he shouldn't be allowed to park legitimately in a designated accessible parking bay - but he's entitled to the permit, and he does need it as he can't walk far, safely, in traffic. It's an assumption that people with disabilties don't drive themselves, don't have a lot of money to spend, don't have expensive 'recreational toys' - and if they do then there are hefty compensation pay-outs in their backgrounds or they're ripping off the system. Most of that stuff is false - people with disabilities work, study, have families, own property and love to spend their discretionary $$$ just like everyone else. Great story to check on BBC news archives: late last year a yuppie car was towed from a shopping centre car-park for illegal parking in a designated accessible parking bay, and all the other shoppers just stood and cheered!!!! Think it was around Christmas. | ||
| Starletta8 Supporter Username: Starletta8 Post Number: 175 Registered: 10-2004 |
eliz, that's exactly it. I admit I was guilty of wondering about some people until I myself became ill. Then I saw how perception and reality can be different things. Let's take me for example... I only applied for a temporary permit because I'm ok when it's not hot and humid. The walking generally does me good- when it's not hot and humid. When it's hot and humid, I may move as quickly as possible (when I've got a short distance to go) so that my body doesn't cop out on me while I'm walking. Once I'm in AC, I'm fine. The disabled parking helps me not have to whip out my cane and labor (thus revealing my disability) to the door. I use a cane rarely- and I'm proud that I don't use it more often than that. Last summer I used a cane far more frequently without disabled parking. That tells me that the permit is serving the purpose for which it was created: it has assisted me and brought my life back towards the level it was before the disability started. | ||
| kevin Supporter Username: Kevin Post Number: 767 Registered: 2-2002 |
A little bit off topic, but how about this? Say you just moved to a town that has a 2 year+ waiting list for a parking permit. Say that you also happen to have a handicap permit which allows you to park in any handicap spot. Should you be allowed to park in a handicap spot at the train station daily at 7am, take the train to work, then come home at 7pm without ever having to apply for a permit for the train station lot? Abuse of the system? | ||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 6673 Registered: 12-2001  |
Leaving the issue of tags and unseeable disabilities...my father had sever empheseyma and used a tag and on good days he looked like any other kindly older gentleman but by the time he got to the bank or post office or what have you he was sucking wind...hard. He eventually died from it...THOSE OF YOU WHO SMOKE...ZYBAN WORKS Anyway...its the people who park in those spots with no tags. They park there because they can't be bothered to circle the block or go around the lot behind the pet shop. They are selfless a**holes who think nothing of turning left into parking places in town, think nothing of "parking" in front of Kings in their monster SUV's blocking not only the sidewalk but my ability to safely cross the street with my son. And when I have asked them to move for the very reason I just sited, language was used towards me that I had to later explain to my son. There are far too many people in this town who have a sense of entitlement that makes me crazy and if I have just lost someones donation to the MOL MOVIE then so be it. I wouldn't want their stinking donations. The people who have come out of the wood work to help and support this whole film idea are not people who park in handicapped spots illegally. This I know. | ||
| Starletta8 Supporter Username: Starletta8 Post Number: 177 Registered: 10-2004 |
kevin, If you look closely at one of the spots in SO, it's a permit handicapped space. So don't throw out a blanket accusation. (And no, it's not mine. I'm not a 9-5 commuter into NY) | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro  Post Number: 3503 Registered: 5-2004  |
kevin, yeah, and why are all those handicapped spots free, when the rest of us have to feed meters? | ||
| jet Citizen Username: Jet Post Number: 1145 Registered: 7-2001 |
Do you have any idea how many of those cards hanging from rearview mirrors are bogus ? Take granma's card, copy on both sides with high quality printer, sandwich copies with a piece of cardboard , stick in microwave to simulate sunlites effect, voila ! It's NJ, getting over is the states past time. See it's most popular TV show. Those spots should be for wheelchairs, as they were intended | ||
| Starletta8 Supporter Username: Starletta8 Post Number: 178 Registered: 10-2004 |
Rastro, Let's go after those already at a disadvantage, shall we? How about this: those who are in those spots are already shouldering larger burdens in medical costs, lost wages, etc. I was surprised to find out that they were free- I fully expected to have to pay. I consider it a nice service to those at a disadvantage. Actually, my gut tells me that charging for handicapped parking is a ADA violation. | ||
| Starletta8 Supporter Username: Starletta8 Post Number: 179 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hey jet, So a disability that impairs your ability to walk long distances is less legitimate if you're still able to walk and not in a chair? Please answer this. I'm curious to see why you feel this way. | ||
| twig Citizen Username: Twig Post Number: 186 Registered: 5-2001 |
Duncan - exactly! Whether it's parking there without a tag or using someone else's tag, it's just plain selfish and wrong. All of the posts about invisible disabilities are true but that's not the point I was writing about. I simply am convinced that a lot of people are using bogus tags or their friend's or family member's tag to park in those spaces. And doing so is just another example of the "me first, nobody else matters" mentality that has become a pervasive problem in our society. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1374 Registered: 7-2005 |
Yeah, why are handicapped spots free? I never thought of that. | ||
| Starletta8 Supporter Username: Starletta8 Post Number: 180 Registered: 10-2004 |
It is a problem. Invisible disabilities are also a problem, given the posts and attitudes in this thread. In a way, I'm glad that this topic was raised because you all can see how much discrimination is inherent in our society. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3505 Registered: 5-2004 |
Starletta, First, my post was actually a jab at Kevin. Since hte handicapped spots cannot be parke at, parking permit or not, by people without disabilities, why should it mayter whether they ahve to wait for a permit or not? But on to your post... How would it be an ADA violation to charge for the spots? It's not charging EXTRA for those spots - just charging the same amount as everyone else. A disability does not make one poor. There are plenty of poor people who are not disabled who would like to not have to pay for parking. If we are going to give people things for free, shouldn't it be means-based, and not based on a condition? Is a rich person in a wheelchair more deserving of free parking than a poor shlub with two good legs, but a low-paying job? | ||
| kevin Supporter Username: Kevin Post Number: 768 Registered: 2-2002 |
Starletta, I never mentioned SO specifically, it could have been just about any town. But yes, it was obvious that I was refering to South Orange. I'll admit that I never did read the handicap sign in front of the Brushstrokes building on Sloan St - but I did not know that the spot requires a South Orange parking permit in addition to a handicap permit. There aren't too many handicap spots on Sloan St, but I have seen the same car (with handicap tag) parked in that one spot on multiple occasions when I got on the train in the morning at 7am and it was still there when I got off the train at 7pm. It is obvious that someone uses that spot as a commuter parking spot. In regards to enforcing handicap permits, I believe that in addition to the handicap permit that hangs on the rearview mirror, the person is also required to carry some sort of card that identifies them as the holder of the permit (correct me if I am wrong). | ||
| kevin Supporter Username: Kevin Post Number: 769 Registered: 2-2002 |
Rastro, there are businesses that are open during the day on Sloan Street. I would think that having vacant handicap spots for patrons of those businesses throughout the day is a good thing. | ||
| Marge N Averra Citizen Username: Marge_n_averra Post Number: 45 Registered: 8-2004 |
Wow. I am married to a person with an invisible and fairly serious disability (though he doesn't qualify for, nor does he want, a handicapped tag). The level of hostility against this is really astonishing. I would ask each of you with some concern about this to try to think about what it's like to live with a disability that prevents you from doing a lot, but nobody knows about it so they just think you're lazy. Sometimes they make nasty comments to you (or to your wife) about it. You either have to tell them intimate details of your medical history or just take it and fume. It's really not nice at all. twig, I have no doubt that there are some crooks out there abusing hte system. But you can't tell who they are just by looking at them. In that case, I think it's best to just assume the best - people with hang-tags have them because they need them. I worked with someone who had a debilitating and painful joint problem and used a cane to get around. I was driving with her and she parked in a handicapped space (she had the tag) and I said kind of jokingly, "gee I wish I had one of those." Her response was - "No you don't. I'd do anything to be able to turn mine in." I'm with Duncan that the people who REALLY peeve me off are the jerks who park in the handicapped spots but don't have a hang-tag. I found this online. One of you graphics wizards should do one for Maplewood and esp. Millburn (so very many violators at Whole Foods - I make a kind of hobby of counting them) http://www.peicod.pe.ca/downloads/violation%20notice.pdf These notices were designed for citizen use. They're not legal documents and don't claim that there is a fine, just a heads-up to the jack*** who parked in that spot illegally that somebody has noticed. | ||
| jet Citizen Username: Jet Post Number: 1148 Registered: 7-2001 |
Starletta8 , # 1 they were originally designated for wheelchairs , hence the symbol on the licence plate. # 2 The spots are heavely abused everybody thats had a heart mumur applies for a card. # 3 They take up regular spots. # 4 They cost biz a lot, how many times have you seen 6 empty spots @ a supermkt. This again was a political perk that ward healers metted out to favorites in their ward that got way out of hand. The bottom line here is : sure it's a good thing for the truly handicapped , but it's gotten way out of hand. So those of you who have them & truly need them should figure out a way to stop abusing them , before they become a revenue source. | ||
| Starletta8 Supporter Username: Starletta8 Post Number: 181 Registered: 10-2004 |
jet, Please define "truly handicapped." And also how are those of us who truly need them abusing them? By using them? That makes no sense. | ||
| Starletta8 Supporter Username: Starletta8 Post Number: 182 Registered: 10-2004 |
Marge, You hit the nail on the head. There are days I feel like I have an obligation to carry my cane even if I don't need to- just to show everybody that I have a disability. I completely understand about people passing judgment. It makes you feel like less of a person just because there is something medically wrong with you. I highly encourage everyone to try to walk a mile in someone else's shoes. | ||
| jet Citizen Username: Jet Post Number: 1149 Registered: 7-2001 |
Starletta8 , you ever been to the PNC , they got about 50 of these spots right up front , but you see the driver get out , grab 2 folding chairs walk up the long flight of steps then a 200 yard to the grass area . Do you think that person should have that spot. | ||
| jet Citizen Username: Jet Post Number: 1150 Registered: 7-2001 |
Starlett8 , police your fellow blue spot users , if you see someone jump out of a car & sprint to the store run back with a case of beer , then they are abusing it . How about if it's not your car but it's your parents & you use the spots anyway ? Raise your cain & thrash these interlopers ! | ||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 6679 Registered: 12-2001 |
Why tags rather than license plates? Are the tags for short term disability and the plates for life long illness/injury? When my father was diagnosed he was given what amounts to a tag (this was in Ma.) But shortly there after he was issued a new plate with the "handicap" insignia on it. How does it work in NJ Starlett8 it sounds as though you are living with a life long issue. Does the state of NJ not issue plates anymore? Or are the criteria for them to stringent? I am willing to be convinced having faced this dilemma myself some years ago, but around here people are, generally, of the "me first" way of thinking. Today in the village, a woman was waiting for a car to back out of its parking space and the woman was in a sizeable car--perhaps a Subaru Wagon, and a man pulled in between her and the car to try to sneak into the spot. Right in front of a cop who, thankfully, took the guy to town. I wish I could have stayed to listen to slap down he laid on the guy, but it is a pervasive attitude around here. | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 309 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here in Asutralia, we pay when there are parking meters, jsut liek anyone else. If the parking spots are free, then ours are free too. Visitors to our area are entitle to park in designated accessible parking bays please get the language right: the bays aren't 'disabled' otherwise no-one could use them - they're designated accessible, for use by people who have disabilities under the same conditons we would but you must have valid permits. Our permits go with the person iwth the disability not the driver, since not peopel with disabilities are passengers or drivers. the reason the symbol has a wheelchair is because THAT'S THE INTERNATIONAL SYMBOL FOR DISABILITY not because you need to use a wheelchair. In fact there are moves to change that symbol, internationally, to make it more inclusive for the reason you've raised. You want a person with low vision or poor traffic sense to walk with heavy traffic across miles of car park into the shops???!!! Just because they don't use a wheelchair?? You want a person awaiting a heart transplant - who doesn't use a wheelchair, as she's OK if she doesn't walk far - to NOT park close to the shops, but sit in her house all day with no social contact?? Go after the idiots with no permits, and the selfish people who set bad examples for chidlren by swearing and being selfish and inconsiderate, not the long-term commuter with disabilities who works not the 'possible' cheater. sheesh - how poor and empty your own life must be if you suspect everyone of always trying to rip off a system. The peopel I work with would give literally anything not to rely on their so-called benefits - and most of the time they give up the perk of their prime parking bay for someone worse off than themselves. I even know a woman who uses a specially designed wheelchair because she cannot walk - her bones snap when she is vertical - she is almost blind and will be within 2 years, she has 4 other major and obvious disabilities AND SHE WILL NOT USE AN ACCESSIBLE PUBLIC TOILET because another adult told her off once in another city because that adult's child's need was supposedly more important. so this woman soiled herself and went home in tears, and now limits ALL her out-of-home activity to 90-minute sessions so she will never be away from her toilet. Grow up, allow yourselves more time and be patient and grateful for the health you have. And get your mall/car park designers to install weather-proofing so you all have shade and rain-cover. For Heavens' sake. mutter mutter mutter... | ||
| StellaLuna Citizen Username: Stellaluna Post Number: 56 Registered: 6-2005 |
The state of NJ still issues special license plates. We have a tag because it is our son who is disabled and the tag can be moved from car to car -- depending on which parent is transporting him. | ||
| spw784 Supporter Username: Spw784 Post Number: 918 Registered: 5-2001 |
according to: http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Vehicle/HandicappedPlates.htm You must have the special handicapped identification card and be present in the vehicle whenever special handicapped parking facilities are used. (confirming Kevin's post of 2:40 pm) License plates can only be issued to one vehicle owned, operated or leased by a disabled person or family member who provides transportation to the disabled person. The placard / hang tag can be used in any vehicle in which you are a passenger. So, if you have more than one car, or might be driven somewhere by a non-family member, the placard is the way to go. Several years ago, there was a study done by Dateline, 20/20, or one of those kind of shows, that healthy/non-disabled people (I think in NYC, or some other large city), were using handicapped placards originally issued to now-deceased relatives. | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 310 Registered: 10-2004 |
which is why ours are annually renewable and carry photo ID.  Just like a drivers licence or other ID card. It's not rocket science, quite easy to polcie, and not that easy to get despite the impression in Joe Public's 60Minutes'-et-al influenced mind. I suspect we're all actually saying the same thing - there's a need, it's being undercatered for and the places provided are also being abused. so let's not be quick to judge suspect permits, let's report motorists who park with no permits where they shouldn't park, and let's be thankful for the abilities we do have. |
