| Author | Message | ||
     yabbadabbadoo Citizen Username: Yabbadabbadoo Post Number: 384 Registered: 11-2003  |
My most recent ruminations on this question were prompted by reading this interview with Michael Shermer the author of "Why Darwin Matters: The Case against Intelligent Design" on Salon. I'll admit up front to being a pragmatic agnostic (don't ask) and to spending more time thinking about this subject the older I get. Frankly, I'm not convinced. (I was raised in a VERY religious home as a child but I also developed a keen interest in the sciences throughout my schooling) As I can't recall seeing a thread on this topic in the past (although I am a relative newbie who doesn't spend a lot of time on MOL) I thought that it might be interesting to start a thread on the subject. I'm not looking to be converted, just curious to hear what some of my neighbors have to say on the subject. Fire away! If possible, can we keep politics out of the discussion ......and keep it civil.....please? FF You can read the interview for free if you let the ad play through. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5621 Registered: 5-2001 |
I found a really great piece of writing on this last week on Cosmic Variance. While I want to be perfectly clear that I'm a Christian, I.D. explains nothing and has no place whatsoever in any serious thinking about science, or how the universe or world works. But this author hits it right on the head with:
Religious people are making a terrible error by effectively staking the existence of God on trivialities like setting the age of the world at 6,000 years, or insisting that God intervenes at point A instead of point B in history. | ||
| Lord Pabulum Citizen Username: Lord_pabulum Post Number: 60 Registered: 7-2006  |
No, my daughter does believe in Father Christmas and the tooth fairy though. And if there was a God why would anybody have to ask? | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 1985 Registered: 6-2003  |
For the agnostic or atheist, the ultimate proof of an argument is an appeal to physical evidence: "Look through this telescope and see the truth for yourself". A believer ultimately has to fall back on an appeal to authority, either in a religious text or a religious official that told them what to believe. The more people think for themselves, the less they believe in superstitions like God, Satan, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, etc. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1802 Registered: 7-2005  |
Simply put, no, there is no god. | ||
| Joe R. Citizen Username: Ragnatela Post Number: 548 Registered: 6-2004 |
How about an appeal to pure reason. Where the hell did the "stuff" of creation come from? I don't care how far you break it down or how far back in time you want to place the beginning of the process, you are still left to explain how nothing became something. | ||
| yabbadabbadoo Citizen Username: Yabbadabbadoo Post Number: 385 Registered: 11-2003 |
Most of what we know about cosmology has been discovered in the last 50 years. What's to say that there won't be an answer to "how nothing became something" in the next 50 , 100 or 150 years? | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 1704 Registered: 1-2006  |
These debates about I.D. attempt to insert faith into science. These two approaches to God cannot be merged. Faith is the antithesis to the scientific method. Rational debate has no place in a discussion about faith. The definition of faith is that it is acceptance in the absence of evidence. The scientific method accepts nothing without evidence. However, sane people can use science to better understand the world, and also use faith to satisfy other, more spiritual needs. The conflict comes from trying to put faith into science. Or to use science to "prove" faith. It's never going to work. God exists for those who believe in God. God doesn't exist if you don't believe. It's actually quite simple. People can gain or lose faith. But God's existence, if it were ever proved, would negate the value of faith. J.B. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1804 Registered: 7-2005 |
"God exists for those who believe in God." J.B., just like santa...  | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave  Post Number: 10582 Registered: 4-1997  |
It might not be an either/or question. | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 1706 Registered: 1-2006 |
Yes, it's a circular logic. But what makes Faith meaningful is that it defies logic. Otherwise we'd all "believe." There's no debate about gravity. J.B. | ||
| yabbadabbadoo Citizen Username: Yabbadabbadoo Post Number: 386 Registered: 11-2003 |
JB: "But what makes Faith meaningful is that it defies logic." You got me with that one. Can you expand on that a bit? Thanks | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3754 Registered: 5-2001  |
I think the finest mind to ever consider this thread's question belongs to Woody Allen... - Not only is there no God, but try getting a plumber on weekends. - As the poet said, "Only God can make a tree"—probably because it's so hard to figure out how to get the bark on. - If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank. - The chief problem about death, incidentally, is the fear that there may be no afterlife -- a depressing thought, particularly for those who have bothered to shave. Also, there is the fear that there is an afterlife but no one will know where it's being held. - To you I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition. - If it turns about that there is a God, I don't think that he is evil. I think that the worst thing you could say is that he is, basically, an under-achiever. - If God exists, I hope he has a good excuse. | ||
| yabbadabbadoo Citizen Username: Yabbadabbadoo Post Number: 387 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dave: So God does and does not exist at the same time? Or are you saying that he did exist but now he doesn't? FF | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 1708 Registered: 1-2006 |
"Faith" is a concept that religious people consider a "gift." It is the belief in God absent evidence. Only believers have this gift. If it were logical, if it were as proven as gravity, then there would be nothing special about believing in it. If wouldn't be a "gift". The concept of Faith is that it can't be argued. It just is what someone believes. Really it is a circular argument. This is what frustrates logical people. But, what is missing from the I.D. proponents' argument is that understanding. If you could prove that God existed, there would be no "faith." It doesn't belong in the science classroom. I.D. people are actually usually Biblical Literalists. This is a bigger problem because there actually is evidence AGAINST their beliefs. But the existence of God? Evolution doesn't disprove it. It's separate. Does that help? J.B. | ||
| yabbadabbadoo Citizen Username: Yabbadabbadoo Post Number: 388 Registered: 11-2003 |
I don't recall faith being purported to be a "gift" as I was growing up (but maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.) My recollection is that it was just to be accepted; no questions asked. That may be what started to turn me off to the concept. Is the "gift" thing peculiar to certain religions/denominations? FF | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5622 Registered: 5-2001 |
It goes to the question of free will. Without free will, faith is also meaningless. | ||
| thegoodsgt Citizen Username: Thegoodsgt Post Number: 1059 Registered: 2-2002  |
Yes, there is a god. | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 1746 Registered: 4-2004  |
Yes. | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 1709 Registered: 1-2006 |
No time to expand. Here's an MSN search on the phrase "Gift of Faith." http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=%22the+Gift+of+faith%22&FORM=MSNH J.B. | ||
| Gordon Agress Citizen Username: Odd Post Number: 533 Registered: 8-2004  |
The argument for the absence of knowledge of God runs like this: If God's existence were provable, like the Pythagorean theorem, or demonstrable, like gravity, awareness of God's existence would be knowledge. And a person who seeks their own interests based on their knowledge does nothing extraordinary. If they enter into a relationship knowing it serves their interest, that relationship is about self-interest, not the other person. If we have knowledge of God, we could not love God, since anything we did for God or to reach God would be motivated by our self interest. If we do not have knowledge of God, it becomes possible for us to choose, or not choose, to respond to God. It becomes possible for us to take risks responding out to God, since we cannot be certain we'll get anything back, and thus it becomes possible for us to return something to God of our own free will rather than offering God an exchange in our own interests. These risks and the opening for will are preconditions for love, which gives without expecting in return. If what God wants is a real relationship with us, rather than commerce between the omnipotent and its creations, God's existence must be hidden from us. I'm perfectly aware that this is the sort of argument that we might construct if there was no God but we still wanted, for whatever reason, to explain the absence of knowledge of God. The argument proves nothing, and actually predicts that it will prove nothing. It does offer a logical though unprovable explanation of why God's presence is hidden from us. | ||
| Soparents Supporter Username: Soparents Post Number: 2766 Registered: 5-2005  |
It has to come down to faith. None has been able to prove beyond doubt that there is, or is not a God. I look at the wonders of the world, the beauty and power of nature and believe that there has to be a God. I look at the war mongering, the evil that is apparent in the papers every day, I look at the people struck down by illness when it should never have happened, and that makes me question if there is a God. Maybe there was but he's/she's left us. I don't know the answer to your question, but as I said at the beginning, it all comes down to faith. | ||
| buzzsaw Citizen Username: Buzzsaw Post Number: 5674 Registered: 5-2001  |
 I believe in God and freewill. | ||
| Joe R. Citizen Username: Ragnatela Post Number: 549 Registered: 6-2004 |
The debate isn't whether there is or is not God. The true debate is the nature of God. Passive, active, vengeful, merciful, interested, disinterested. As a creator-entity, though, I just don't see anyway around it. Its easier for me to conceive of a creator or unmoved mover which brings the stuff of ccreation into being than it is to conceive of the "stuff" having no beginning and no end (eternal stuff) or coming into exitence without cause. No, the existence of God cannot be proved with certainty, but it can be proved to a lesser standard. To me it is provable as "more likely than not" or by a preponderance of the evidence. In a civil law suit, you prove the car accident was the other guy's fault and collect alot of money. You say you "proved" the case. In a criminal trial you "prove" guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt" (not, significantly, "beyond all doubt") and execute him because you "proved" his guilt. Faith is the bridge between the proof we can muster with our frail intelligence and absolute certainty. To say God exists for those who believe and not for those who don't is to say God does not exist. The existence of God does not depend on anything. It either is or is not. Why is Faith a Gift?- Faith is a gift because without it there is dispair. | ||
| Psychomom Citizen Username: Psychomom Post Number: 618 Registered: 5-2005  |
Yes There is a God | ||
| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 303 Registered: 3-2006  |
No, there isn't.   | ||
| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 305 Registered: 3-2006 |
Does the concept of Faith have to be synonymous with God, or religion in general? | ||
| Ligeti Man Meat Citizen Username: Ligeti Post Number: 792 Registered: 7-2002  |
It is a quesion with two correct answers: yes and no. For those who believe, God does exist and influences their lives in deeply profound ways. That's proof, of a kind. The problem with so many relgious people is that they believe faith and knowledge are the same. They try to legislate their beliefs in the public sphere. Babies aren't born believing in God; it's a choice, just as not believing is. Reject kooks like Sean Hannity who insists the world needs to believe in his God. | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 1105 Registered: 2-2002 |
The author Margaret Atwood (who says that she was raised to be a "true agnostic") believes that atheism is also a religion because they believe in something that cannot be proved, -ie: that there is no God. -Difficult to live in the limbo of the agnostic, -in perpetuity of what may or may not be in regards to such a huge question. -It leads to, what to me is a more interesting question, -how would people behave individually or collectively if they truly all believed that there was no God and no "afterlife" -that this was "it"? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12486 Registered: 5-2001 |
After getting another thread on this subject pulled by Dave. At least it disappeared between my last posting and early this morning, I am a little hesitnat to post on this subject. However, the chaplain at the college I attended, who loved to argue with us heathens, made the comment that, "in the end you have to make a faith assumption to believe in God". I doubt if this was original with him, but I think it sums up the situation. Some do believe, some don't. Amongst both groups there is a wide divergence in just what they believe or don't believe. Cheers, Bob the Deist  | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5758 Registered: 10-1999  |
I think this passage from Thomas Merton is applicable here: “You cannot be a man of faith unless you know how to doubt. You cannot believe in God unless you are capable of questioning the authority of prejudice, even though that prejudice may seem to be religious. Faith is not blind conformity to a prejudice - a ‘pre-judgment.’ It is a decision, a judgement that is fully and deliberately taken in light of a truth that cannot be proven. It is not merely the acceptance of a decision that has been made by somebody else.”From New Seeds of Contemplation, Chapter 15 | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 2284 Registered: 3-2004 |
I like Merton, but I also hold with Blaise Pascal. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10583 Registered: 4-1997 |
From God's point of view, the beginning and end of the universe happen simultaneously and his existence includes non-existence (yes he's that big), he therefore exists and doesn't exist. In other words, don't worry about the question so much and have a nice lunch. | ||
| buzzsaw Citizen Username: Buzzsaw Post Number: 5676 Registered: 5-2001 |
dave, that reminds me of python's meaning of life: What was that about hats? Ah, yes - people aren't wearing enough of them. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5759 Registered: 10-1999 |
Pascal's wager is theoretically a "logical" argument in favor of belief, but it falls short. It basically argues in favor of belief as a means to avoid a (possible) punishment. There are still short-comings in that argument (What kind of faith is sufficient? What "flavor" of belief is the right one to have? Is there a "wrong kind" to pick?). Later on in the Pensees, Pascal jots down his thoughts on why a particular faith is the one to pick. I don't think he meant the wager itself as a final proof. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1963 Registered: 10-2004  |
Sam Harris has some interesting points of view on faith - an exerpt from an interview about his book 'End of Faith'
He is not just picking on Christianity here. He makes similar observations about Judaism and Islam which he is very harsh on. Harris in his book makes some interesting observations about mans need to explain what he can not know.
full interview here I dont believe in organized religion. I dont know if I believe in God or not, I change my mind depending on the weather or how much pain I feel that day. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15442 Registered: 1-2003  |
To me, the definition of faith is belief in the absense of proof. There can't be proof of the existence or non-existence of God. That's by definition, and it won't change. If God existed provably, God wouldn't be God. There are really two types of atheists. (I'm not joking here.) One believes God does not exist. The other doesn't believe God exists. One has an active belief; the other has a passive belief, or rather, non-belief. Montagnard, there are other ways of coming to believe in God. One doesn't need an authority. Perhaps you had a forceful religious Christian upbringing and need to reject it. I was not taught that there is a God, and perhaps it's because of that that I believe in God. There's nothing for me to reject out of rebellion. I would reject belief if I had to believe one way or another. God, to me, has no form and therefore may not necessarily have a single consciousness with a memory, emotions, desires. For all I know, God is the collective consciousness. Or maybe the sum of all forces of energy. Or how about that which cannot be described fully. Many people believe that the universe -- and therefore man -- was created by God. I think probably the opposite. I think God is created by man because we have faith that God exists. It is from our imagination and ponderance that our knowledge and our qualities can be expanded infinitely beyond our current imagination that God exists. Religion is our feeble attempt at describing God. Then all the politics got mixed in, and it's been a fairly ugly affair, with some reasonable and notable exceptions. Religions also provide a sense of community, with some tangible benefits. I believe it's possible to build faith without religion. Religion provides rituals, which, by the fact that rituals have only the meaning we attach to them, remind us that there is more to ourselves and our community than we can imagine. This is why a habit of rituals can be useful. Rituals allow us to place values on things. Some objects, i.e. places, times, etc. are deemed holy, because we want them to be. Having times and places that are holy changes our state of mind, which turns out to be useful in the same way prayer and meditation are useful to us. I hope these random musings make sense to someone. I'm not sure at all if they are clear in any sense. | ||
| Joe R. Citizen Username: Ragnatela Post Number: 551 Registered: 6-2004 |
"Many people believe that the universe -- and therefore man -- was created by God. I think probably the opposite. I think God is created by man because we have faith that God exists. It is from our imagination and ponderance that our knowledge and our qualities can be expanded infinitely beyond our current imagination that God exists. " Tom: I'm not really sure what this means, but it sounds like you're saying that God is a figment of the imagination of man. It may well be that this thread will wander aimlessly through all eternity becasue we are carrying different definitions of God to the table here. To be clear, I thought the God we were discussing is the Creator of the Universe. The God I speak of is eternal, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent and, ultimately, unfathomable. If God is a creation of humankind (itself a creation), then God did not exist prior to the first conception of God by some protohuman (1-2 million years ago). The consequences are staggering: if the day should come when humankind become extinct or humans should stop thinking about God, God "dies". Hence God is not eternal. If God only exists at the sufferance of man, then God does not exist where man does not exist (Mars? or any other uninhabited place). As I understand God, then, one who believes as you do would be an atheist (unless humankind as a part of all creation IS God.) | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15443 Registered: 1-2003 |
Suppose God couldn't exist without man and man couldn't exist without God. I think that would make God (and man) sufficiently unfathomable to keep us busy debating for a long time. You're trying to figure it all out while, at the same time, saying God is unfathomable. So stop trying to fathom God. Just because God needs us (and don't you agree?) doesn't mean there is no God. So no, I don't think I'm an atheist. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15445 Registered: 1-2003 |
Oh, and Joe R, you and I really must have coffee one day. I'm sure we'd enjoy it. |
