| Author | Message | ||
     Alberto Fernandez Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2005 |
A Maplewood resident for the past 24 years, I have seen many changes take place in the town- mostly for the better in my view. There is some "stress" related with these changes, as differing ideas and views accompany the introduction of these changes and form part of the Towns growth and expansion. During Christmas, Maplewood takes on a very different look- dressed up to exhibit its better side. Its been this way since I can remember, including the Christmas tree in Ricalton Square representing Santa Claus and all the goes with him. The incorporation of the Menorah, celebrating Chanukah - commemorating the rededication of the holy Temple in Jerusalem after the Jews' 165 B.C.E. victory over the Hellenist Syrians. Antiochus, the Greek King of Syria, outlawed Jewish rituals and ordered the Jews to worship Greek gods. In 168 B.C.E. the Jews' holy Temple was seized and dedicated to the worship of Zeus. The Macabees, in their effort to rededicate the Temple to their faith discovered a small flask that contained only enough oil to light the menorah for one day. Miraculously, the oil lasted for eight days. This gave them enough time to obtain new oil to keep the menorah lit. The Jewish community takes pride in celebrating this event, an important testament to the miracle they cherish. This is good. Next year, we will be exhibiting a Nativity manger in the same Ricalton square, commemorating the miracle of my faith and that of others in the Catholic community who have joined and received authorization to do so. This Nativity scene will be a compliment to the Menorah, and incorporate the importante element that encompasses the Christmas season- and we invite others to join with us in making Maplewood a truly harmonious community. This scene is not supported by the Township of Maplewood, who has carefully reviewed the issue aside from other groups that have come to its support. Merry Christmans to all. Happy Chanukah to all. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14370 Registered: 10-2001  |
I don't understand your last paragraph: "Next year, we will be exhibiting a Nativity manger in the same Ricalton square,"..."This scene is not supported by the Township of Maplewood, who has carefully reviewed the issue aside from other groups that have come to its support." How will you put it in Ricalton Square without the support of the Township? | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2005 |
The township has no objection and so voted. The support, by default, is implicit. The Township attorney was first consulted on the matter. By support, I mean that there will be no financial and/or other contribution - it is all privately funded. Hope that answers you question. | ||
| extuscan Citizen Username: Extuscan Post Number: 562 Registered: 6-2001 |
This is very good news. We have to remember that there was a nativity scene in that location for years, and it was only discontinued due to... I think... some kids hurt or killed the live animals which were part of it... NOT because someone complained. -John | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10071 Registered: 5-2001 |
Interesting. Alberto has posted on this twice and John is his first response, other than a request for a clarification. Does this mean support, or does it mean that the usual crew here is contacting the ACLU and sending emails to various TC members? This may surprise you, but given that things like Christmas trees and Santa Claus gives so many people here the vapors, it might be a, well, Christian gesture to forgo something so overtly religious. | ||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 5374 Registered: 12-2001  |
Just please don't put the baby Jesus in the manger before 12/25 and don't have the three wise men there before 1/6. These are details that drive me crazy about nativity scenes. In my home town our church had the wisemen start at one end of the property and each day after the 25th would move them closer to the manger so that they were there for Epiphany. Now thats attention to detail! | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11593 Registered: 1-2003  |
Strictly speaking, it may cross the line, but I can't really get worked up about it. So I won't object to it. I will point out, however, that not everyone likes to flaunt his religion, so equal time and equal access don't always amount to equal treatment. But it's nice to try, and we'll never get it perfect anyway. | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2005 |
Bob, The issue is the meaning of Christmas- and so, in keeping with this thinking, the Nativity will be a restoration of the significance of this celebration. If some people get vapors, sorry. Whatever makes them happy. As for me, I wish them a Merry Christmas and a Happy Chanukah. Thanks for your interest. | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2005 |
Duncan, I fully agree with you. The important thing here is to be tasteful, considerate and not overbearing, and to respect the faiths of all those who gaze upon it. Thanks for your comment. | ||
| Hank Zona Supporter Username: Hankzona Post Number: 5069 Registered: 3-2002 |
I am a Catholic, and since I can remember, I never needed to see a creche beyond the ones in my home and church to remind me about the origin and meaning of Christmas or to aid in "the restoration of the significance of this celebration". Maybe if more folks went to Mass more regularly (or at all), and not just on the "big holidays", or better yet, followed the basic tenets of the faith more closely, they wouldn't need the reminders. The best displays of the faith are behavioral displays, not symbolic displays. A creche in Ricalton Square isnt likely to increase attendance at Mass or lead to a spike in good deeds. | ||
| shestheone Citizen Username: Shestheone Post Number: 207 Registered: 5-2003 |
bravo, hank! | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10082 Registered: 5-2001 |
Does the Mennorah in Ricalton Park effect anyones view? Are we going to have a contest to see who can build the biggest, baddest religious display there? Hope not. | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2005 |
Hank, Your are absolutely correct. Wether you go to mass regularly or not is of no concern to others. That said, I don't see the relationship between your comments and the nativity scene. Thanks for your interest. | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2005 |
Bob, I agree with you as well. Many people think that Menorah is too big of a display. However, I think the Nativity will compliment it nicely- a real inclusionary approach. Right on. | ||
| Hank Zona Supporter Username: Hankzona Post Number: 5070 Registered: 3-2002 |
Alberto, I do not believe I said whether one goes to Mass regularly or not is of no concern to others...so I do not see how you could say I am "absolutely correct" in that regard. Perhaps you really didnt read what I typed. Thank you for responding though. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11610 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'll admit I don't see why you'd want a religious symbol in a public space. It seems as if you feel your church and home life isn't satisfying enough. Is that not it? | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2005 |
Tom, I would rather not discuss your family life or that thereof. Your comment is rather pathetic. Lift the tone- or send an apology . thanks, | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1625 Registered: 12-2003  |
I'll apologize on behalf of Tom. His radical pro-Jewish agenda is, frankly, sickening, and I'll remind him that even though his religion is older than yours, you rarely get something right on the first try. I think Confucious said that. Anyhoo: I, too, don't understand why there is this desperate need to have a nativity scene in an even MORE public place -- as if your front yard, and the church's front yard, weren't public enough. Do you really feel "offended" to not be allowed to place a plastic version of the son of God on town square, when everyone in town is free to place one on his or her front yard, and every church is free to do the same? | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2005 |
Thanks. Tom's radical pro-Jewish stance is fine with me. My realtives in Congress continually vote in favor of Israel and support the State of Israel. His tone is pathetic and petty. He can read the new thread to learn about hiding behind the electronic message board. Three is no urgent need. The offended appear to the those who object- why? In the past there was always a Nativity scene in Maplewood square. Again, the scene represents Christmas and it will be exhibited only during Christmas. As i mentioned before, it will be tasteful, considerate and not overbearing so as to respect the faiths of all those who gaze upon it. Chrismas is what it is- | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 21 Registered: 12-2005 |
cmontyburns I forgot to mention that there is nothing that prohibits the placement of the nativity in the square. Therefore, it stands to reason that I would not be offended since it is allowed. I think that once it is seen, within the overall context of the season, calmer attitudes will prevail- and I invite you anytime to talk about it. thanks, | ||
| ess Citizen Username: Ess Post Number: 749 Registered: 11-2001 |
After reading through this thread, I found no evidence of Tom's so-called "radical pro-Jewish stance". Alberto, why don't you look in the mirror to see who is "petty"? And for your information, support of the State of Israel does not necessarily translate to being "pro-Jewish". If you want to use that to assuage your own feelings of anti-Semitism, be my guest. Religious displays in town have no bearing on those who choose to practice or not practice their religion. Does a nativity scene increase churchgoing? Does a menorah increase attendance at a synagogue? These are irrelevant. Rather, the displays are symbolic of the holidays celebrated at this time of year. As I have said on another thread, there are turkeys displayed around Thanksgiving and hearts a-plenty around Valentine's Day. Same thing. I would say that there are some people out there who are looking for a fight, but then again, I might get accused of having some radical pro-Jewish stance. | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2005 |
ess-I never accused him of having a radical ProJewish stance. If you read on Cmontyburns states it- I simply say I have no problem with it if that his thing. The State of Israel is a great place- what's your beef about. re: the displays. I agree fully with you. That is why next Christmas there will be a Nativity exhibited. Thanks for your comment. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1626 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh it's his thing, believe me. I'm just glad someone finally had the courage to call him on it. Bravo, Alberto. Something tells me things are going to finally change around here. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 1778 Registered: 8-2003  |
I think this is a great idea. I'm also going to petition the town to include a display to represent the town's agnostics - a large, illuminated Target logo that represents the importance of holiday shopping to our secular economy. Below that will be a sign that outlines the scientific reasons why the virgin birth is a myth. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10088 Registered: 5-2001 |
Doc, someone already has petitioned the TC for permission to put up an atheist exhibit, so you aren't as far out in left field as you think. I am going to petition the TC to provide soap boxes so we can be the NJ equivalent of Union Square in Manhattan and Hyde Park in London.  | ||
| maplescorp Citizen Username: Maplescorp Post Number: 54 Registered: 12-2005  |
Just from personal experience and in contrast to the News Record writer who said the park is never used for soapbox purposes, the Maplewood South Orange Committee To Stop the War (www.somastopthewar.org) had an organized protest in the square early in March, 2005. Here's what it looked like:  | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 1780 Registered: 8-2003 |
the atheists are off base on two counts. agnosticism is the only conclusion for a true skeptic. The atheists cannot PROVE there is no god, any more than a believer can prove there is one. secondly, from what I've heard, the atheists are not properly recognizing the economic importance of the commercialization of Christmas. I only wish the Catholics would spend the time they spent on getting a nativity in Ricalton on some other more Christ-like activity for the square. Instead of a baby Jesus sponsored by a church, how about a toy drop or canned goods collection bin in Ricalton Square, to symbolize the Catholic value of giving? | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2005 |
o'boogie, I agree with your idea for a collection bin. Specially during Christmas. I think your a bit bent on the Catholic thing. I would like to think that others aside from Catholics value giving. How does the collection bin symbolize Catholic values, as opposed to Jewish values, Muslim values etc... I suppose some Catholics and Christians of different faiths would donate to the bin- but hopefully so will a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu etc... Maplewood is a very inclusive town. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1627 Registered: 12-2003 |
Or how about the head of a Turk on a pike, to symbolize the rich history of the Crusades? I'm just thinking out loud here. | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2005 |
where can we get one? | ||
| mrmaplewood Citizen Username: Mrmaplewood Post Number: 278 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bear baiting. How about lifting the tenor of this conversation. | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 925 Registered: 2-2005 |
Why don't we set up an "indulgences" booth? That way we could raise money for charity AND sinners could get to heaven! How much does a plenary indulgence cost, anyway? And... if you intend to repeat some of the more enjoyable sins, can you buy a maintenance plan? | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 1781 Registered: 8-2003 |
alberto, If I'm "bent" on the Catholic thing, I have 12 years of Catholic education to blame. Considering that my parish church had a Christmas tree every year, I think the tree in Ricalton Square has the Christian thing pretty covered already. I know you already referred to the tree as a secular "Santa Claus" symbol, but if I recall my Catholic education, the tree is a symbol of everlasting life, its pyramid shape reaching toward heaven. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 1782 Registered: 8-2003 |
With regard to the tree as a Christian symbol, I have no less than the Pope in agreement: http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=34135 | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1629 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hours of fun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree | ||
| Alberto Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2005 |
O'Boogie - point taken. We will put the nativity at the foot of the Christmas Tree to make it complete. I still don't see the argument about giving being a Catholic thing/ | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 1783 Registered: 8-2003 |
giving at Christmas is indeed a Christian/Catholic thing. Muslims, Jews, and others are certainly welcome to give presents, but please don't try to deny that gift-giving is a specific traditional way to observe Christmas. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10091 Registered: 5-2001 |
First off, all Christians aren't Catholics. At least half of the people who identify as Christian are protestants. Second, I keep coming back to the fact that something like 95% of Americans celebrate Christmas, many as a secular holiday brought to us by Hallmark Cards, Federated Department Stores and Toy R' Us, even though only about 80% of the country is Christian. The point here is that Christmas trees and Santa Claus have moved into the realm of the secular for a great many Americans. While Case is starting the Christian bashing here, it is interesting that very little has been said about the large Mennorah in Ricalton Park. Are a Mennorah and a Nativity display equal? You may now return to your regularly scheduled rants. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1630 Registered: 12-2003 |
Notice that Tom hasn't reappeared. Probably off honing his radical views somewhere. Or building an Ark. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 101 Registered: 10-2005 |
When we invited Santa Clause to join the Christmas Party, we formally parted all ways with the religoius components of an American Christmas....this goes for all things that come along with Christmas, which includes Christmas trees, Christmas Decorations, and yes, Nativity scenes. It's ridiculous to try and ban any of these items on the basis that it's religous promotion. It's also equally ridiculous for a church to actually want a cheesy plastic (or "Living") Nativity Scene promoted in the town center. But if thats what they want....have at it (maybe it's nice for the kids to be reminded of things a tad more altruistic than Santa Clause). To point out the absurdity of this entire PC Christmas movement, I'll use Easter as an example. Easter is as religious of a name/holiday as Christmas is. Yet for some reason, nobody seems to mind "Easter Candy", "Easter Bunny", "Easter Eggs", "Easter Egg Hunts" and "Easter Brunch". Why? I dunno. But perhaps we're not too far away from dying "Holiday Eggs" and having "Holiday" candy delivered by the "Holiday Bunny". The Empire State Building (a private building, but very public symbol) typically dons the colors of the holidays at hand, both secular and religous...seems to keep most people happy in what is otherwise a very challenging city to keep everyone happy. |
