| Author | Message | ||
     Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11578 Registered: 1-2003  |
December 26, 2005 Op-Ed Columnist A New Civil Rights Movement By BOB HERBERT One of the cruelest aspects of slavery was the way it wrenched apart black families, separating husbands from wives and children from their parents. It is ironic, to say the least, that now, nearly a century and a half after the Emancipation Proclamation, much of the most devastating damage to black families, and especially black children, is self-inflicted. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to know that some of the most serious problems facing blacks in the United States_ - from poverty to incarceration rates to death at an early age - are linked in varying degrees to behavioral issues and the corrosion of black family life, especially the absence of fathers. Another devastating aspect of slavery was the numbing ignorance that often resulted from the prohibition against the education of slaves. It was against the law in most instances for slaves to even learn to read. Now, with education widely (though imperfectly) available, we have entire legions of black youngsters turning their backs on school, choosing instead to wallow in a self-imposed ignorance that in the long run is as destructive as a bullet to the brain. I remember interviewing a 17-year-old dropout in Brooklyn who had already fathered two children by two different girls. He wasn't working and he wasn't helping to support either child. I asked if he had considered going back to school. He looked at me, puzzled. "For what?" he said. Most black people are not poor. Most are not criminals. Most are leading productive lives. The black middle class is larger and more successful than ever. But there are millions who are still out in the cold, caught in a cycle of poverty, ignorance, illness and violence that is taking a horrendous toll. Nearly a third of black men in their 20's have criminal records, and 8 percent of all black men between the ages of 25 and 29 are behind bars. H.I.V. and AIDS have literally become the black plague. Although blacks are just 13 percent of the overall population, they account for more than half of all new H.I.V. infections. Black women account for an astonishing 72 percent of all new cases among women. This is frightening. Black children routinely get a rough start in life. Two-thirds of them are born out of wedlock, and nearly half of all black children brought up in a single-parent household are poor. Those kids are much more likely to drop out of school, struggle economically, be initiators or victims of violence, and endure a variety of serious health problems. We can pretend that these terrible things are not happening, but they are. There's a crisis in the black community, and it won't do to place all of the blame on society and government. I've spent years writing about unfairness and appalling injustices. Society is unfair and racism is still a rampant evil. But much of the suffering in black America could be alleviated by changes in behavior. What's more, those behavioral changes would empower the community in ways that would make it easier to successfully confront opponents in government and push the society in a more equitable direction. The problems facing black people today are comparable in magnitude to those of the Jim Crow era of the 20th century. There were leaders in those days who were equal to the challenge. I believe that nothing short of a new movement, comparable in scope and dedication to that of the civil rights era, is required to bring about the changes in values and behavior needed to halt the self-destruction that is consuming so many black lives. The crucial question is whether the leadership exists to mount such an effort. A good first step would be a summit meeting of wise and dedicated men and women willing to think about creative new ways to approach such problems as crime and violence, out-of-wedlock births, drug and alcohol abuse, irresponsible sexual behavior, misogyny, and so on. Addressing issues of values and behavior within the black community should not in any way imply a lessening of the pressure on the broader society to meet its legal and ethical obligations. It should be seen as an essential counterpoint to that pressure. Most important, it should be seen as a crucial component of the obligation that black adults have to create a broadly nurturing environment in which succeeding generations of black children can survive and thrive. Despite the sometimes valiant efforts of individuals and organizations across the country, we are not meeting that obligation now. And that's because there's a vacuum where our leadership should be. Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company | ||
| mamatamu Citizen Username: Mamatamu Post Number: 102 Registered: 7-2002  |
What's your point Tom? Is this opinion something you agree with? It's kind of "random" as my kid would say. This quote by Herbert is applicable to all Americans, "But there are millions who are still out in the cold, caught in a cycle of poverty, ignorance, illness and violence that is taking a horrendous toll." Tom, is this misery only faced by and caused by black people? Or perhaps the misery has a different impact on black people than it does on white people. We know there are miserable people of all races. And, why are people always looking for one leader among a people, especially Black People? What's up with the messiah stuff? Who is the white leader? Is Pres. Bush filling the vacuum for the ills of poor white people? Is that why they fare so much better, where is there a column about them? Do Korean Americans have a leader, how about Mexican Americans..? Mr. Herbert states: .....There's a crisis in the black community, and it won't do to place all of the blame on society and government Is there really any such thing as a Black Community? Communities are self-sufficient and have independent institutions of their own.. Considering those characteristics, where is there a Black community in this area, or in this country...? The crisis is that there is no community. | ||
| Alberto Fernandez Citizen Username: Buckwheat Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2005 |
I accept all arguments, as there is no clear and definitive solution or ansuwer to the cause/effect of poverty. I will say this: go back 40 years and start adding up the investment made by our society in its attempt to better the standards of the less fortunate. I argue that some live their "politics" by keeping the poor and less fortunate in their current miseries- accusing others for their state. Times are changing. Personal responsibility and introspective analysis leads much more to the solution of the state of poverty - its only when you have had, and have lost to recuperate again, that you understand that the solutions are within- one's own personal resolution. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11584 Registered: 1-2003 |
mamatamu, I didn't really have a single point. When I cite an article, I offer it without comments at first. There's almost always something I disagree with when Bob Herbert writes, but there is always stuff to agree with, too. At least he offers really good food for thought. Your comment about no community is very incisive. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 557 Registered: 7-2003 |
Tom, I must admit, you seem to be the only person on MOL (non-black) who seems to want to address black issues. I agree with everything mentioned in this article (especially since its mostly based on facts). Unfortunately, the solution to this problem is much more complex than just leaders making plans to break cycles. This problem is rooted in a psyche that exists among blacks dating back to slavery. Whether people choose to believe in Willie Lynch or not, his philosophy is very much alive! I could go into much further detail but too much to mention in a posting... | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11588 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'm sure we've heard from plenty of non-blacks on these issues. But it doesn't matter. I agree deeply about the issue of stuff rooted deeply in people's psyches. I believe increasingly in collective consciousness and maybe even inherited memory. Changing course in collective consciousness is like steering an ocean-liner ship, but you gotta try. I also agree that leadership isn't the only answer, but you won't get far without it. In other words, Herbert's recommendations seem excellent, but they are not a complete list of what's needed. Another thing required, for example, is an admission by whites that we will never really understand what it's like to be black. But we should always try. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1522 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom,
You can't understand what it's like to be anyone except yourself. Sometimes your concern for people who don't resemble you or you life experience comes off (to me) as an offshoot of your own discomfort with racial issues. I don't mean to attack, it's just some food for thought. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 2899 Registered: 3-2004 |
Nonsense. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 11589 Registered: 1-2003 |
What Lydia says is somewhat true, but it's also a sign that I didn't convey my point well. I'm talking about times such as when a black person says to a white person, "stop claiming you understand, because you don't." And that's fair enough. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1524 Registered: 5-2001 |
as a woman I could say the same thing to anyone who isn't a woman. No one can "understand" a struggle that isn't your experience - you can support and show empathy. I know I've posted this site before, but maybe it's worth a second look: www.blackpeopleloveus.com I think it sends a powerful and helpfully controversial message about well-meaning reaching out that can cross the line to condescension and racial generalizing. Plus it will make you laugh (and cringe.) | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 2902 Registered: 3-2004 |
Horrors. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1525 Registered: 5-2001 |
What's your point Tulip? Do you want attention are you just a troll or both? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 2903 Registered: 3-2004 |
No, I think you are a troll to find fault with empathy and concern about our fellow human beings. I can't stand the constant drum beat of well=heeled excuses and rationalizations to be selfish on this message board. Your website is trolling. It's virtually pornographic. It's pure slime. You asked... | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 2904 Registered: 3-2004 |
Go on with your silliness, Lydia. I realize you are a very respectable member of your community. Don't mind me. As far as empathy is concerned, I certainly will never empathize with the wealthy and vapid. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1527 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tulip, you miss my point, and what I infer to be the point of the website. Subtle entrenched racism and white self-centeredness doesn't really open the door to empathy or understanding at all. Playing off stereotypes, whether maliciously or not, still glosses over sensitive and intricate issues that aren't so easy to define. Another website that I think captures "respectable" upper middle class "new" racism is www.rent-a-negro.com | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 1777 Registered: 8-2003  |
this might help spending lots of time engaged in a pointless semantic discussion:
you can't show empathy without being able to understand. | ||
| Jonathan Teixeira Citizen Username: Jhntxr Post Number: 342 Registered: 10-2005 |
And Black self-centeredness doesn't really open the door to empathy or understanding at all !! It's just the reality of it all , humans are only animal , and animals are tribal . We surely can not " know " what it's like to belong to another race or tribe , but humans have the ability to empathise . It doesn't make sense when on one hand , people say " only Black people can resolve problems in their own community , we don't need white people getting involved ", then they turn around and say that there's only one person ( non- black ) here on MOL that seems to want to discuss ' black issues ' Sounds as if some black people actually want more interest shown to their issues , just don't tell them what they don't want to hear . | ||
| SOSully Citizen Username: Sullymw Post Number: 1052 Registered: 5-2001  |
This morning I was speaking with someone who grew up in Alabama in the 50's-60's and she reminded me that it's only been 40 years since the Freedom Fighters and desegregation. That is really just a blink of an eye. To expect huge changes after only a generation or 2 is hopeful, but not necessarily realistic. Let's hope that the situation for African Americans (and others) continues to improve. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 558 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jonathan, I'm the only one that said it (only Black people can resolve problems in their own community) , not "people". It seems that you did not pay attention to the definition Dr. Winston gave, empathy and understanding are the same thing. So to say, "empathy or understanding" is being redundant. You spoke of the issues latinos have to deal with. Tell me, how can I or any non-latino help latinos overcome those issues? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 2905 Registered: 3-2004 |
bklyn: If you are, for example, a teacher and you teach in a Latino community, if you are a doctor, social worker, banker, fireman, and you simply try to become color-blind, that might be a start. Do your service, and do it for everyone. Try just not thinking about what color people are. That's the starting point. Ask yourself how you can help people regardless of color, that's another step. Then do it. Make a conscious effort to relate to people beyond color or ethnicity. It's fun. It's a challenge. You will learn how to empathize. More people on MOL should give it a try. More people in SOMA should, too. It's a real problem in NJ. By the way, did anyone see Rosa Parks' funeral with Eleanor Holmes Norton presiding? I think the Old Civil Rights Movement is still alive, and a new one need not replace it. Rosa Parks' death galvanized the civil rights advocates, black, white and all, once again. I am so sorry so many young people missed the civil rights era. It's hard to tell you how it felt. Many make fun of it, but that's because you weren't there to sense the elation and the feeling of social renewal. You will, perhaps, get a sense of it as the Bush era recedes. | ||
| Chris Prenovost Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost Post Number: 795 Registered: 7-2003 |
Back to the article. . . I rarely agree with anything Bob Herbert says, but he really hits the nail with that one. Thanks for posting it, Tom. Unfortunately, I see absolutely no sign that the leadership Herbert is looking for is on the horizon. He is not the first to see this problem. Hopefully, he will not be the last. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 559 Registered: 7-2003 |
tulip, there are many if not all non-black "doctors, social workers, bankers, fireman and others in the black community, been that way ever since integration but yet the struggles of blacks as a whole continue to exist. I'm not denying others can't be helpful, just not the main solution to a psychological problem. I appreciate your response though, still waiting for Jonathan's... | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1528 Registered: 5-2001 |
I agree with Herbert's conclusion that:
Sometimes when non-black people post articles like this one, the eagerness to empathize seems to me less real empathy but an opportunity to compartmentalize black suffering as somehow different from all of the societal ills, and vaguely their own fault. When white poor girls get pregnant and plunge themselves into a fairly certain life of poverty for themselves and their offspring, we don't have the same reaction, i.e. to get the "white leaders" to talk to them.
Agreed. I would add that most of the suffering in ALL America could be alleviated by changes in behavior. The meth epidemic is a drug problem that began with white gangs (Hell's Angels), and mostly effects white users. There's no one decrying that the "white leaders" are dropping the ball. I agree with much of what Mamatutu said re: leaders. Why do we often assume that black people have specific "leaders" but the rest of society has more complex solutions? | ||
| Jonathan Teixeira Citizen Username: Jhntxr Post Number: 343 Registered: 10-2005 |
Bklyn , If you had looked a little bit closer you would have seen those were Lydia's words I quoted . But when you look for negatives you always find them . And I am not looking to any group for help . I have to take charge of my life and that of my children . It starts in the home . How is it that Blacks from the Caribbean somehow seem to make a better life for themselves in this country ?? And the American blacks are still complaining ?? They have the identical skin color , don't they ? It's all in ones outlook and attitude !! But if you keep looking at the white person as a racist then there is no salvation for anybody . Racists come in all races . There are white people , and there are whiggas . There are hispanics , and there are spiggas.There are black people , and there are niggas . The hispanic community has it's own share of problems , but they put their heads down and work , and bust their asses to make a better life for their children . Just like every poor immigrant did before them . The jewish people are a great example of triumph over adversity , you name it they have been through it , yet they always come out of adversity better than they were before.It's called community . Help each other , stop criticising . For the life of me I can not figure out why some people have a problem with Bill Cosby , yet virtually worship fifty cent...but what do I know . | ||
| Flimbro Citizen Username: Flimbro Post Number: 17 Registered: 6-2005 |
Whoa! Ol Jonathan kinda put the brakes on this thread huh?! You forgot our Asian brethren Jonathan. Are there Chiggas, Koriggas, Thaiggas and Jiggas (no, not that Jigga ya'll). Jonathan I'll be attending the weekly Black People Meeting this Friday at 2 (that's the meeting where we all of us black folks get together to appoint leaders, share hair care secrets, talk about white people and recite 50 Cent's lyrics) and I promise to bring up your concerns and advice. Especially the one about outlook and attitude. Who knows, it might work- a toothy grin a shiny disposition and a can-do frame of mind- what do we have to lose right? Thanks for the advice. I'll let you know how it turns out. I gotta go now, somebody is at the door. I think it's my new lawn company. Can't keep them waiting- they get testy if you hold them up from hard work. You know how those miggas are. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 560 Registered: 7-2003 |
Exactly, Flimbro! Jonathan, what's with you? Again, someone throws up the "racist" word out of nowhere. And these stereotypes you have of me and black people in general is outrageous! So what, there aren't any positive images or examples you have of AAs? And, "If you had looked a little bit closer you would have seen" all my post have to do with American blacks, not blacks from the Caribbean. Same skin, different history. They have not suffered the same struggle. For example, I had a conversation with a friend from the Caribbean who said to me, "AAs don't have the same outlook on positions of authority and striving as people from the Caribbean. We've seen that all of our lives, while AAs hardly ever see it or have it instilled in them. Our Prime Minister, cops, politicians, people of authority, all black. We're used to it, not just secondary roles in life." Makes a lot of sense on why their psyche is different. Another thing, when you spoke of every other group that's endured struggle, you referred to them as "Immigrants". Sorry Jonathan, "American" blacks don't have that luxury. The same itinery, a one way boat ride but a little different... | ||
| mamatamu Citizen Username: Mamatamu Post Number: 103 Registered: 7-2002 |
Whacha say Jonathan: "The hispanic community has it's own share of problems , but they put their heads down and work , and bust their asses to make a better life for their children . Just like every poor immigrant did before them ." Here's some interesting info on the •••-busting Hispanics: http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2003/hispanics/ In 2004, the poverty rate declined for Asians (9.8 percent in 2004, down from 11.8 percent in 2003), remained unchanged for Hispanics (21.9 percent) and blacks (24.7 percent) and rose for non-Hispanic whites (8.6 percent in 2004, up from 8.2 percent in 2003). (That piece actually came from the census) Hispanic students have retention and suspension/expulsion rates that are higher than those of Whites, but lower than those of Blacks. (Indicator 3.2) Hispanic students have higher high school dropout rates and lower high school completion rates than White or Black students. (Indicator 3.3 and Indicator 3.4) Hispanic students had higher NAEP reading, mathematics, and science scores in 1999 than in the 1970s, though their NAEP performance remains lower than White students. (Indicator 4.2a through Indicator 4.4b) 1998 Hispanic high school graduates earned more credits than did 1982 graduates, especially in academic subjects. They also narrowed the gap with Whites on academic credits earned. (Indicator 4.5) Hispanic students are more likely than White and Black students to complete advanced foreign language classes. (Indicator 4.6d) More Hispanic students than in previous years are taking Advanced Placement (AP) examinations. (Indicator 4.7) Over one-half of Hispanic students speak mostly English at home. (Indicator 5.3a) The birth rates of Hispanic females ages 15 to 19 are higher than females from other racial/ethnic groups. Hispanic enrollments in colleges and universities increased between 1980 and 2000, though a smaller proportion of Hispanics complete college compared to Whites and Blacks. (Indicator 7.1a and Indicator 7.1b) Is there an Hispanic leader who can explain these trends? I gotta another question: Are all Hispanics the same? Is a Dominican the same as a Peruvian, or Mexican, or Chilean. Do Puerto Ricans think like Costa Ricans? And do the Brazillians even count as Hispanic? Why are you comparing a Caribbean born black person to a BlackAmerican? One thing that I find interesting is that people tend to put all black people in one bag..We are all the same. Simply based on skin color. We may all have extra melanin but we are not a monolith. I think it is racist to categorize all of us in the same boat. Lemme make this clearer. Here's an example: When people speak of the slave trade they always say, "The Blacks sold other Blacks." Why is it that people fail, or refuse, to distinguish between ethnic groups of Africans. A Kikuyu in Kenya knows he is not a Luo or a Massai. WHy is it that White people have the luxury of being Scottish, Welsh, Irish, or Anglo, but Black people are simply Black? Why is one race denied ethnicity and heritage? Another strange quote from Jonathan: "Racists come in all races . There are white people , and there are whiggas . There are hispanics , and there are spiggas.There are black people , and there are niggas . " Uh, I don't get your point... What are you trying to say? I take the word racist to mean one who believes in the innate superiority of their race and the inferiority of another. Because they believe they are superior, the racist feels that he has the right to dominate." One method of domination is the refusal to recognize all people as deserving respect, hold individual opinions and having the right to self determination. Echoing what Lydia said: Sometimes when non-black people post articles like this one, the eagerness to empathize seems to me less real empathy but an opportunity to compartmentalize black suffering as somehow different from all of the societal ills, and vaguely their own fault. Let me elaborate some more on this point. I watched MTV the other day. And I agree, the society is sick and the sickness is pervasive and it is not produced by Black people. Black people may indeed participate but we didn't create this....national tragedy. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1537 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mamatutu, well said. I started a post that I didn't finish, but you said what I began to say. I have a friend who told me that her son had a friend "from Africa" - as if Africa is a country. If her son had a friend "from Europe" I think she would at least identify the country - i.e. Scottish, British, etc. People are trying, and that's a step in the right direction, but the next step is to stop grouping people together by skin color or their past and start making friends. If I never again hear a person refer to,"My friend, who is African American, blah blah blah" it will be too soon. Another pet peeve of mine is the euphamism "diversity" - what is diversity? Diversity of Religion? Skin color? Political leanings? wealth? Poverty? What? What does "diversity" mean? IMO - talk to everyone, respect suffering, respect joy. All people have scars -- some scars heal over, some fester, some act up on rainy days. If you walk in life and talk and listen, you'll hear the stories that are told. There is no understanding a group because there are no group consensus when it comes to race, gender, or even religion. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 561 Registered: 7-2003 |
I agree mamatamu, very well said. I could be wrong but Jonathan speaks from an opinion which is solely based on emotion. That's why when facts are added to the discussion he has nothing to say. He has consistently made statements to stir up controversy but instead gets responses of fact to back up statements to the contrary of his own. First he says, "I am not looking to any group for help". Then he says, "Help each other , stop criticising". That's your emotion standing out more than your knowledge (not saying you have none but you are contradicting yourself). Face it Jonathan, you made a gross misjudgement by trying to label non-American blacks with AAs. As mamamatu started, I'm sure there are many other AAs, myself included that will give you facts that would make your head spin. Oh yeah, speaking of psyche, the first recorded slave ship arrived to this new land in 1555, yet slavery isn't recorded as officially starting until 1619. What do think went on for 64 years? | ||
| Flimbro Citizen Username: Flimbro Post Number: 18 Registered: 6-2005 |
I think the majority of Jonathan's information about African Americans comes from pop culture references. That’s not all his fault. It’s much easier to draw conclusions and form opinions from ninety second news stories than by reading. This might explain the linking of Bill Cosby and Fifty Cent. Jonathan- Bill Cosby is a comedian and Fifty Cent is a rapper. They have no more influence on my life decisions than George Lopez or Enrique Iglesias have on yours. And for the record- any immigrant who came to this country during or post the 1960's has benefited from the African American struggle for civil rights. Any poor "hispanic" who successfully applies for and gets a small business loan is a beneficiary of struggles initiated during the civil rights era. That’s one by product of our “complaining”. Furthermore, African Americans own the copyright on busting •••. The fact that non white people can vote, travel relatively freely throughout the United States and live in the neighborhood of their choice (or at least make an attempt to) is the result of hundreds of African American lives and years of struggle. Those beneficiaries include "hispanics", blacks from the Caribbean, Africans and anybody else who can't step off of a train, ship or an airplane and be accepted as a white Anglo Saxon. Bob Herbert is a beneficiary as well. He is also someone who has chosen to use those benefits in the service of making white folks (and a certain type of African American) feel comfortable. That is the purpose of his article. That's why he mentions chattel slavery and then proceeds to blame African Americans for their social station as if all he's just said about slavery and the black family has nothing to do with that condition. That's also why he takes the time to restate every single negative factoid about African Americans that he can come up with and cap them off with "This is frightening". You're damn right it's frightening- always has been. Poor people across the board catch hell. They are the victims of a huge machine (one that received it's "start up" funds from the slavery Bob glosses over). This machine systematically disenfranchises poor and lower middle class whites, browns and blacks while reserving and insuring wealth for a more elite class. But Bob doesn't make this distinction because that's not the purpose of the article. The purpose of the article is to advance propaganda and reinforce stereotypes by reminding white folks that out of all the disadvantaged and struggling people in this country- black people are the most violent and irresponsible and according to Bob- generally at fault for their own condition. Bob is the messenger because the paper believes that the message is harder to challenge if it’s written by a black man. Unlike any other group of Americans who are trapped in the same situation, Bob seems to think that African Americans hold a special responsibility for poverty and ignorance. He’s wrong. As a group poor African Americans are no more responsible for insufficient health care or misogyny or violence than their white or brown counterparts. True, African Americans can fight to change their position and have a history of fighting- but that’s not the tone of Herbert’s piece. My favorite bit is the "wise and dedicated men and women" summit meeting. That's a great idea. I guess we send invites out to Oprah, Bill, Michael and Magic and pick a couple of Reverend’s and possibly a politician or two. What a plan! Maybe we can share the meeting room with wise and dedicated white leaders when they convene to work on their community's problems- billion dollar white collar crime, out of control children with assault weaponry at school, serial rape, murder and pedophilia, domestic violence, drug and alcohol abuse, irresponsible sexual behavior, transporting violence abroad and on the highest levels, apparent disregard for the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights. The bottom line is that we’re all in trouble. Incredible violence in all forms permeates every segment of our society. It’s the lifleblood of the television industry, video games and mainstream feature films. Health care is non existent for too many Americans, we’re in enormous debt to numerous foreign powers, our food is diseased, AIDS runs rampant and our society is approaching a level of stupefying class stratification. If we’re silly enough to read Herbert’s article and think that his fairy tale “talented tenth” solution is anything else than an attempt to shift attention away from these real issues we deserve whatever we get. | ||
| eliz Supporter Username: Eliz Post Number: 1266 Registered: 5-2001 |
Flimbro - I hope you send that post in as a letter to the editor in response to Herbert's column. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1540 Registered: 5-2001 |
Flimbro, Yes, send it to the NYTimes, really, one of the best posts I've ever read. | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 4263 Registered: 5-2001  |
bklyn- you said "a one way boat ride but a little different... " That bothers me a little because you are assuming that you are the only group with a "one-way" history. Some of my family came over as prisoners from the Battle of Culodden (1746) led by Bonnie Prince Charlie against the royal troops. THere was no room (or money) to house the prisoners, so they cut our ears off and sent us to the new world as endentured servants. We took the name of the family that we were beholden to. Also, you are glorifying immigrants. As an example, the irish came here poor and starving. This was a one way boat ride. They were still poor and starving after getting here and treated as second class citizens to boot. In the end, my heritage is clearly an enormous mix. Scotish, english, dutch, german - endentured servants, non-servants - our names were changed, the spelling of those names were changed. Nothing is clear. I guess I'm trying to say that none is too clear for anyone, unless I guess they were immigrants from the 20th century where it's easier to trace history. Anyway, for me, I don't walk around wondering where people are from anyway. If I see a black person, I don't think "oh, was a slave" or if I see a white person, I don't think "oh, wasn't a slave". I think I just see people. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 562 Registered: 7-2003 |
ffof, whether your bothered by my comments or not is irrelevant. You then go on to explain your history but not dispute mine. I'm not denying others have suffered and will not get into a debate over which people suffered the most. I will say that when a person is robbed of their culture, religion name and history, that is the biggest crime that can be committed. While your name was changed and you come from a big mix, you also know what countries you're heritage is from and can easily research their history. Most AAs just know their origin is the continent Africa, no clue what country. And please ffof, telling me the Irish or anyone else coming here poor and starving is NO comparison to the African slave trade and how the transporting of Africans came to America! Being treated like a second class citizen is not the same as being beaten, breeded, lynched, sold as property, family's seperated and being referred to as animals and 3/5 of a human in the Constitution of the United States. Also, "If I see a black person, I don't think "oh, was a slave" Awww, thank you ffof, you're too kind. | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 4264 Registered: 5-2001 |
I'm not looking to pick a fight, bkln. You don't want to get into a debate about who suffered most, but you get mad at me for bringing up the irish and how it is NO comparison. I never said it was - but there are all kinds of circumstances, that's all. BTW, NONE of us actually lived in these circumstances. Were you beaten and sold as property? No, but your ancestors were. Was I beaten and sold as property? No. But my ancestors were. And women were property too, btw. Yet, I live a pretty great life. I bet you do too. | ||
| SOSully Citizen Username: Sullymw Post Number: 1057 Registered: 5-2001 |
did you see the Pakistani who was arrested for killing his 3 very young daughters and a step-daughter because the step-daughter allegedly had an extra-marital affair? women there are like property and can be killed to preserve the honor of the family. nice | ||
| Flimbro Citizen Username: Flimbro Post Number: 19 Registered: 6-2005 |
Lydia, eliz Thanks for the suggestion. I may do that. What I really want is to hear from Jonathan. Obviously, I was joking around with my first post. The more I though about it the more I really wanted to put some alternative information in his head. I think he's probably a hard working guy who suffers from the same bs foisted on all of us. That doesn't make him a bad guy in fact it makes him a victim of sorts. I don't think a couple of messages on a website will change his perspective but I do think its a shame for him to think pitting poor brown people against poor black people will lead to anything other than more of the same for both groups. | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 563 Registered: 7-2003 |
ffof, I didn't get mad at you for bringing up the Irish but NO other group of people came to America under the same circumstances as blacks from the countries of Africa. None! I have grandparents from South Carolina, hell, my father even tells me stories of lynchings and blacks disappearing in the night. He even told me a story of how a black man had to be sneaked out of town in a coffin to avoid being killed by an angry white mob. And this for looking at a white woman the "wrong" way. So, maybe these horror stories are ancient for you but considering I knew Michael Griffith (ran down in Howard Beach, NY for no other reason but being black in a white neighborhood), these stories aren't ancient to me. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 5632 Registered: 5-2001  |
To Bklyn's point: "I will say that when a person is robbed of their culture, religion name and history, that is the biggest crime that can be committed." This is a global tragedy for African descendents. This has been going on in Africa for centuries. Every single country in Africa had been ruled by countries from Europe as recent as the 1990's. I have a friend from the UK who jokes about how the US is constantly trying to repair all the faults we have inherited from Europe. Not funny though. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 2912 Registered: 3-2004 |
May I ask if Native Americans, who were encouraged as children to forget their language and culture in schools run by the BIA, are included in this category? |
