| Author | Message | ||
     Joan Citizen Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 4418 Registered: 5-2001 |
AlleyGator: What I said back in September, 2001 was that I was opposed to the concept of a fenced in dog run in Maplewood Memorial Park. If you read my other posts of that period and later, you will see that I posted several possible alternative sites for a dog run, none of which were ultimately found acceptable for a variety of reasons, most of which were NIMBY related. Of the sites under discussion at the time, the area now being considered proved the best choice because it was not immediately adjacent to residential property, had adequate parking, was not likely to be challenged by the Historical Preservation group which was then being formed, was not immediately adjacent to the major river which runs through town, and was readily accessible to anyone who might want to use it. The proposal to use the pool parking lot area fell through at the time because that area was being considered for a temporary skate park for the town's human youngsters and the skate park use was approved. If the area by the pool is no longer being used for the skate park, it once again becomes open to use for a dog park. As I recall, the whole issue ended last time with Ian Grodman, who was then running for TC, saying that he was meeting with the County to try and establish a county run dog run in the area which would better meet this need since the County had more open land under its control and could help us develop a dog run area more in keeping with the Union and Livingston models. | ||
| Joan Citizen Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 4419 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom: Maybe its all those years in municipal government which you refered to in an earlier post on the dog park issue, but I have been around long enough to know how very wrong things can go if the planning and development phase of a project is inadequate or lacking. My questions, as I said in another thread are geared towards planning and evaluation of the proposal, not its destruction. I see a real demand in town for a dog park-type facility. I just want to see it done right. A lot of the questions you take exception to come out of Michael and Eliz' comments regarding member only, gate and key requirements for a successful dog park. There are problemns which develop in a space-starved town such as Maplewood when a private or exclusive group moves to take over a parcel of public land for their own use and then refuses to share with others who may have the same need but not be able to get in because the membership rolls are full. The question on space per dog was not aimed at coming up with a precise x number of square feet per dog (which would obviously vary depending on the size, physical condition, and personality of each dog in question). Rather it was more an attempt to get a feel for maximum use at a time much like fire code occupancy limitations for humans in places of public assembly. As I told Art G last night when we discussed the proposal, my greatest fear this time around is that the project may be a victim of its own success. I think there could be many more than 35 or so dogs (Art's very early ball park figure based on experience with the area by the train station which was used as an illegal off leash dog area for years) wanting to use the dog run at the same time once it opens. An initial interest survey, similar to what was done before the jitney routes and schedule were developed might be in order to see how many people in town would really want to bring their dogs to such a facility once it opened and what hours they would want the dog park to be in operation. Such figures would be very helpful to have when the proposal is brought before whatever township committee(s) would have to approve the proposed use of this parcel. | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 6888 Registered: 5-2001 |
Can I bring my pit bulls, Killer and Slasher?  Actually, I am only kidding, they are named Cupcake and Sweatheart. Seriously, once common sense prevailed and turning over a section of Memorial Park to the "Dog Club" was taken off the table interest seemed to die. I think a survey would make sense before spending significant money on the location by the pool. | ||
| just me fromsouthorange Citizen Username: Jmfromsorange Post Number: 996 Registered: 7-2003 |
tom- suggestion? how about contacting the people who created the park in livingston (since livingston is more similar to maplewood then echo lake park) and ask them advice on how maplewood can go about creating their own park? i think joan has a lot of valid points. this wouls be one way of getting some answers to hers, and all the other questions. i'm sure all of them, plus have been asked in livingston. we no longer have a dog, so i would never use the park myself, but i think it's a great idea! as for 'public land' being used for it... think of it as any other of our recreation areas. the pool, tennis courts, when there is ice skating etc. not everyone uses these things, yet taxes pay for them. (well not the pool in maplewood, but you get the idea). someone suggested trying to make it part of the new animal shelter. now that would be GREAT!!! but it would really tick off those already trying to stop the shelter. how much space is needed for this? maybe someone could donate the land to the 'dog park project?' or you can set up an orgainzation and buy the piece of property you're thinking of using from the town? | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 3301 Registered: 9-2001 |
Joan, the least of our problems would be to many residents wanting to use the dog run at the same time once it opens. As with regards to all the other possible problems, each of them has a relatively easy solution. To make this as simple as possible, the dog run at the pool site has to be limited to a reasonable capacity that doesn't create to big a burden on this site. We're not going to know what that number is until we first get started. Of course the cooperation of a dog club or the JAC is needed. Rotating the fields, and providing doggy bags, will also help. Let me try to explain it this way. Any community would be in trouble if they just stayed with only their first public park. However, as the need grew for more parks they found them. The same applied for the schools, police and fire departments, and even car parking. It's already been over two years of jerking around with this project. Come on, you dog people need to stop talking and start doing something. I can hear the dogs getting excited about it already... Woof, Woof, Woof! | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 4638 Registered: 1-2003  |
Thanks for the clarification, Joan. I think I can use your questions and recommendations to help make this work. Thanks, jmfso, too. I was going to do that. I was on a Yahoo group concerned with all dog parks in the country. I'll get back on and ask their advice. And I'll talk to the organizers in Livingston, too. Gotta be careful not to gather too much information, too. I tend to fall into "analysis paralysis." | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2004 |
I am unfamiliar with the pool site. If the temporary skate park site is not being used as a skate park anymore, is it worth pursuing gaining dog usage for that site too? How much bigger is the skate park area? Can both the old skate park area and the already approved dog areas both be used (maybe the larger one for big dogs and the smaller one for small dogs -- as is done at the Washington Square park in NYC? Are the two sites connected? It is my opinion that a survey is unnecessary. It is clear that a significan't group of Maplewood citizens want the dog park, which is why dog usage for this site has already been granted. This topic is 2 year old ground that we are covering, yet again. As Tom, AJC and I have stated, people will use common sense (and make a decision for themselves and their pets) whether the site is too full for their own comfort level, and wait to use the location until it is less full. If occupancy is an issue for a dog owner they can use the site when it is less full (like in the early morning, evening or on a weekday day). We have waited long enough to have this dog run. Waiting for a survey seems like just another delay. I agree with AJC, if the site is used TOO MUCH and occupancy becomes an issue, then like ALL PARKS discussions will be made to find a new site or grow the existing site. But for the record, I have used MUCH SMALLER dog runs in Hoboken and NYC and there has never been an occupancy issue. I also hear some discussion about hours of operation for the site. Does anyone know if there is a Maplewood town law requiring that parks close at a certain hour? Ideally it would be great if the Maplewood dog run was open 24 hours as I believe Echo Lake is. | ||
| Joan Citizen Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 4429 Registered: 5-2001 |
AlleyGator: There is only one site not two. The site which has been used for the tempoorary skate park is the same site Tom and others are now proposing be used for a dog park. The site under discussion was never approved for a dog park. No site in Maplewood has received such approval to date. The site has been posted for walking dogs on leash. Approval of several committees would be required before this site could be used for a dog park. If you have had any experience with these committees, you would know that every bit of proof of community support and evidence of detailed planning provided would be a plus in getting such a use approved. | ||
| Soda Citizen Username: Soda Post Number: 2078 Registered: 5-2001  |
All: When I suggested that some portion of the Animal Shelter grounds might be suitable as a possible site for a dog run, my thinking was that pet owners from BOTH South Orange and Maplewood should be able to use the site (whether admission would be based on JAC membership, charge per use, or some other basis was of secondary importance). I know for certain (from my own fondly-remembered days there) that "Dog Hill" at Memorial Park in Maplewood was frequented by pets from both towns, and I think that any discussion of creating a dog run ought to be, first of all, about a facility shared by both towns. All this back-and forth about the legal niceties in Maplewood ignores any possibility that pet owners from South Orange could use such a facility just as much as their neighbors to the South. The JAC, in my opinion, is the right organization to approach with this idea, and I'm surprised that nobody seems to have made contact with them. -s. BTW: Although many JAC members have neither dogs nor cats, I'm sure that they'd like to see such an amenity at the Shelter, if there's room... | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanks for the clarification. I assumed that there was an area that was ALREADY approved for a dog run. Which was, I thought, why there was a sign designating the area for dog walking. Otherwise why post the sign at all? Unless it is clearly stated that dogs aren't allowed, I assumed you could walk a dog on a leash on just about any public land? If so, then why bother posting the sign at all? | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2004 |
Soda, the only reason why SO hasn't been mentioned specifically as far as I can tell is because the dog run would physically be in Maplewood, and would require Maplewood Township's permission to get accomplished. But in my mind, I assumed that ANYONE would be able to use the facility. A few people so far have actually mentioned that the site would get approval MUCH EASIER if the dog run was for EVERYONE, even people from other towns. Also, I can't imagine anyone turning away help/donations from people who live in SO or any other area for that matter. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 560 Registered: 12-2003  |
We moved here recently from Brooklyn, where dog parks and the public have happily coexisted for a long, long time. (Perhaps the largest "dog park" in the world is Prospect Park, where dogs are allowed off leash to roam hundreds of acres on weekend mornings, and select days in the evening. There is no licensing, no gate key, no paid "rule enforcer." Just hundreds and hundreds of responsible pet owners having a great time with their pets -- and just as many non-pet owners who come out to watch.) This absolutely should be on public land, and it absolutely should happen now. I don't play tennis, but I recognize the value in having my tax dollars support a tennis court. Our two towns have about a zillion critters in them, and providing a clean, safe place for dogs to socialize will just be another great selling point for the area. Will e-mail my contact information, and look forward to helping out any way I can. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 4639 Registered: 1-2003 |
Soda, I did think of South Orange, and figured that if the dog run in Maplewood is open to the general public, it would take care of people from all towns. I still like your idea and will pursue it, among others. It might be a nice "shortcut." | ||
| Michael Janay Citizen Username: Childprotect Post Number: 1316 Registered: 1-2003  |
cmonty, I couldn't agree more. Central Park allows off leash dogs before 9 and after 6. Why is it so darn hard for Maplewood or SO to do the same. Dog hill was a destination for decades and decades with no problems, then some squeaky wheels had to ruin it for everyone. | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2004 |
I went to the site by the pool just now, and I see the strip of land in question that borders the fostercare facility. There is a skatepark that is still up. It is directly behind the Rescue/First Aid (???) building at the very end of the pool parking lot. Is that the permanent skate park? Or is that the temporary skate park that is eventually going to be disassembled? | ||
| Joan Citizen Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 4431 Registered: 5-2001 |
Soda: Art G, who is actively pursuing the creation of a dog park is an active member of JAC. When I spoke with him on Saturday evening about the dog park proposal, he said that he was discussing the matter with JAC. I assume it is his intent to involve JAC in the planning and developing process. I don't know if it is his intent to have JAC coordinate the administration of the dog park if and when one is finally created in Maplewood. | ||
| Joan Citizen Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 4432 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom: When I read your proposal, I assumed that the Skate Park had been moved or at least that a permanent site for the Skate Park had been approved. Were you aware of the Skate Park's still occupying the strip between the pool parking lot and the fence? As you envision it, would the dog park come into being only after the skate park is moved to another location, assuming a more permanent location for the skate park can be found or does the preliminary plan for the dog park take the present skate park usage into consideration? AlleyGater: The sign permitting walking dogs on leash along the strip of land by the pool parking lot likely dates back to a time when dog owners were expected to curb their dogs. This sign indicates that the strip by the pool was an approved exception to that rule. Today hardly anyone curbs their dogs anymore. I don't know if a curbing ordinance is still in existence in town and I doubt anyone wants to raise that question at this time. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 4644 Registered: 1-2003 |
Michael Janay, a law that allows my dog to go offleash at certain times is useless to me. I have a greyhound, which is one of the sight-hound breeds. Sighthounds cannot be let off leash without fencing them in. They will run off and endanger themselves. A fenced-in dogpark is very valuable to me, especially since I can't afford a fence around my backyard now. Even if I could, my back yard is extremely small, so it wouldn't let Red run much. He's a big dog, about 29 inches at the shoulder. Joan, I don't see a conflict between the current skate park and the proposed dog area, whether the current skate park is permanent or temporary. I believe they can coexist, and people could even use them simultaneously. What does the verb "curb" mean these days? I require Red to "use" the grassy median between the street and the sidewalk. Sometimes he uses the leaf piles in the street, which I feel is also fair. I always clean up after him, and nearly everyone in my neighborhood does so all the time. The occasional violations are very irritating, which might lead you to believe they are common, but they are not. | ||
| Michael Janay Citizen Username: Childprotect Post Number: 1318 Registered: 1-2003 |
Tom, I am all for a fenced dog run. All I was saying is that if off leash times work in NYC, why can't they work here in Maplewood? By the way, with a remote training collar, you could have your dog off leash with no problem. They work great for sighthounds, and I've known several people with GPA greyhounds that swear by them. | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 6903 Registered: 5-2001 |
When Meorial Park was known as Dog Hill there was a lot of damage. The dogs managed to wear off most of the grass. Also, the park isn't all that large. It isn't like Prospect or Central Parks in the city. |
