| Author | Message | |||
     ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4185 Registered: 9-2001  |
While I'm on a roll, and speaking of ordinances, I believe it may also be helpful if we had some MOL input again on Maplewood’s pending Bed and Breakfast Ordinance... On July 19th, the Township Committee at one of its regular monthly meetings had an agenda discussion on a report received from the Maplewood Planning Board, wherein, the chairman had responded to an earlier request from the committee to look at a bed and breakfast ordinance for our town. After a fairly substantial discussion, and favorable report from the Planning Board, the Township Committee then voted to charge the Planning Board with the responsibility of writing the ordinance. About two months later, on September 13th the Planning Board held an open meeting to obtain more information from the public. The meeting was attended by a number of interested residents on both sides of the issue. A considerable amount of both positive and negative criteria was brought forth to be considered. Based on questions and information received at that meeting, the Board then formed a new sub-committee to re-study the matter further. For the record, significant additional information has been provided on all aspects of the subject, including sample ordinances to review. As we can see by the pending Massage Ordinance, too often, some of the restrictions and regulations incorporated into an ordinance can be harmful to both the business and the clients. My wish is that we don’t repeat these mistakes when writing this ordinance as well. Hopefully soon, after many years in the works, an ordinance will be forth-coming from the Planning Board that the Township Committee can vote on. At such time this happens, the public, and what I feel will be a substantial number of residents will be present to provide their input. Therefore, IMHO, it would be helpful for any MOLERS with feelings on the subject to bring them forward here, before I get to old to care anymore...  | |||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 9956 Registered: 1-2003  |
Sigh. Please don't get too old. I wish you luck. I think allowing B&B's here is in everyone's interest. | |||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4186 Registered: 9-2001 |
"Sigh. Please don't get too old." ...I hope you don't mean that literally Tom? I plan to live another 65 years in which everyone of them will be focused on more B&B's, and more parking on Elmwood Avenue, and for that matter the entire town... BTW, if done right, allowing B&B's here in Maplewood "is" in everyone's best interest. | |||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 3710 Registered: 5-2001 |
It's long overdue. Time to get the regulations on the books already and allow these businesses to grow. | |||
| Ed May Citizen Username: Edmay Post Number: 2382 Registered: 9-2001  |
As usual I agree with Tom. Bed and Breakfasts are in everyone's best interest in Maplewood. | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 7793 Registered: 4-1997  |
Ron would say… Mr. Profeta, Tear Down this Ordinance. | |||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4342 Registered: 9-2001 |
...not the Ron I knew and loved. He would have said, bring me that ordinance pal, or I'll rebuild the Armed Forces! BTW, as an update on the pending bed and breakfast ordinance requested by the Township Committee on July 19th, the Planning Board’s sub-committee was too busy to meet last month, but as I understand from the Chairman they have met this month and will have a report at the November 9th meeting… I’ll keep you posted. | |||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 601 Registered: 7-2004  |
It doesn't bother me, but I wouldn't say that it was in everyone's best interest. For instance, most of the neighbors.... | |||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 10471 Registered: 1-2003 |
Living next to a restaurant can also be a strain. But I don't favor an ordinance that forbids restaurants. | |||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 607 Registered: 7-2004 |
As I said, it doesn't bother me. I just know that several of the neighbors were not happy. | |||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4347 Registered: 9-2001 |
"I just know that several of the neighbors were not happy." Mr. Mayor, I know, I know already, but do you know how many others were not happy with them? I wouldn't wish neighbors like them on my worst enemy. So, please tell me what else do you know? Do you know with the proposed minimum half-acre lot size how few homes would qualify to allow a bed and breakfast on their property? Do you know how many hundreds of families in town have a need for accommodations for visiting family and friends every year? Do you know that with appropriate and well thought out regulations, a bed and breakfast home is a wonderful asset to any community? Do you know that a bed and breakfast property is usually the most attractive and the least polluting of our town services like police and education, etc.? Do you know that a bed and breakfast home as a rule has less outward activity and provides more neighborhood security than if a regular family occupied the home? Do you know that with only a hand full of bed and breakfast homes in a town, they can produce millions of dollars of income and new taxes into the community? Do you know that with existing regulations for noise, parking, and other regulations for "all" properties, it wouldn’t be any different with a bed and breakfast? Do you know that there isn’t anything that you can put anywhere, in any place that some group of NIMBY’S won’t raise their heads in opposition? Do you know that I could go on and on until you would scream for mercy? | |||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 613 Registered: 7-2004 |
Please do go on. | |||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4350 Registered: 9-2001 |
Sorry, that was enough for today. There will be plenty of time for more in the near future. But thanks for asking anyway... | |||
| redY67 Citizen Username: Redy67 Post Number: 4218 Registered: 2-2003  |
ajc, I am very for it. When my parents did have a chance to stay with you it was wonderful. My dad needed his own space, and since our house is small it allowed them time to stay with the kids, and be able to go back to your place without travelling so far. The next time they came it took hours out of our day. | |||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4352 Registered: 9-2001 |
...thanks Red. What most folks who read these comments don't understand is, this whole deal is not so much about me as it's about the needs of our community. Over the years there are literally hundreds upon hundreds of families who have either stayed with me or called for accommodations for their families. I've been fighting this argument for over five years for those residents, and the hundreds of others just like you who want the town to allow more B&B'S. I believe it was back in 2000 or so, when I was a member of the Economic Development Committee, even back then the town was saying they support the idea of B&B's for our town. The last three Mayor's, the present EDC, the past Planning Board, the Chamber of Commerce, all said they support having an ordinance to permit it, but... still, year after year, meeting after meeting, news article after article, post after post, the reality still eludes us... Why you may ask, especially when it's damn near impossible to find anyone in the world who doesn't love staying in them, or even dreaming of one day owning one? Well, one has to look at the power of the NIMBY'S, and of politics! I'm hoping that this month the sub-committee will have done their work so that the Planning Board can do their work, and present an ordinance like the township committee requested they do back on July 19th... I plan to fight the good fight to the day I die, but it sure would be nice for a little more help from our friends... (that is all the lovers of B&B's) | |||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 5793 Registered: 5-2001  |
I am for the B&B. I am not for paid events being held in residential neighborhoods (weddings, etc.) I am not for more/overnight parking on town streets. People should be able to supply a parking space for each bedroom to qualify. I know some of your neighbors and think that "not wishing them on anyone" may not be the best way to win supporters on this board. The complaints I've heard from them directly is that when events are hosted, they have had charter buses pull up on the side streets (Fleming Terrace, i.e) sit and idle in front of their houses, had to deal with well-lubricated, loud guests peeing on their lawns, etc. when leaving late at night. I can see why they have a problem with that. But, my family has also stayed with you. It was a warm, wonderful experience. You even made us a pancake Mother's Day breakfast. That is a service that we definitely need around here! And it doesn't hurt that my father thought that it was really great to meet another "Art and Libby" which were his parents' names. And no, I am not saying that you reminded him of his parents. You are around the same age, I believe. | |||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14130 Registered: 10-2001  |
Please get this ordinance on the books already. It's ridiculous that people have to go to other communities to stay over night. | |||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2848 Registered: 1-2004  |
I'd much rather live next to Art's Bed and Breakfast then a house full of college students... | |||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4354 Registered: 9-2001 |
Thanks Greene, thanks and happy birthday again "S"... Listen, I agree. I am not forfor profit - paid events being held in residential neighborhoods (weddings, etc.) And, I'm also in favor of the prospective B&B sites being able to provide a parking space for each bedroom to qualify. I know very well there are some on this board who support a few of my neighbors, and I doubt there's anything I could do short of dying that would please them... It’s very depressing, but there will always be those among us who don't believe in compromise or reconciliation. Every possible objection could be resolved with a well thought out ordinance. BTW, B&B’s are one family homes, and one family homes are located in one family zones, not in a commercial or business zone... FWIW, the complaints you heard from them directly, and the ones that have gotten back to me are exaggerated and distorted. "One time" a charter bus parked on "Elmwood Avenue” in front of my house, not on Fleming Terrace, and it had nothing to do with a catered event at my home. The alleged well-lubricated, loud guests peeing on their lawns may have happened once or twice in the past twenty years, but they were probably an infrequent personal, or Republican gathering, not B&B guests. We are all still entitled to have a party at our homes now and again, right? Being these particular neighbors have done everything they can to discredit me, and that they happen to be active in an opposing political party, it’s not hard to see why they always have a problem with anything I do. One more thing, your family was great, and it was a warm, wonderful experience for us as well. There are many other families just like yours in town that deserve the same opportunity to have their families stay near by them in town. BTW, I'm getting old enough to be everyone’s father on this board... | |||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2852 Registered: 1-2004 |
Art- Hmmm, it seems college students get loud, have parties, pee on lawns, and do a bunch of other things. I think they can be the cause of a lot more problems then a few people staying in a bed and breakfast. One of the reasons is there are many more college students in town every day then all the guests added together over a year's time. Hopefully the TC will finally stop dragging their feet and give you the approval you need. There is a real need for a place for people to stay not only in Maplewood, but South Orange too. | |||
| I'm Only Sleeping Citizen Username: Rbrunner Post Number: 100 Registered: 5-2004 |
There are really people in Maplewood who are opposed to B&Bs?? Good lord, is there nothing people here won't complain about? This seems like a total no-brainer to me. B&Bs are good for everyone. | |||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 5797 Registered: 5-2001 |
Interesting point about events being held. It doesn't even have anything in particular to do with a business operation. ALthough, to be fair, it is easier for a home set up for multiple guests to host more "private" events. As JTA notes, college kids are a particular PIA. Last May, a neighbor held a HS graduation party that got very loud & required MPD to come and help everyone move along. No big deal. The kids had graduated. But, what if they had been the type of parents who traveled a lot & the kids went nuts when left alone, or even parents who just let their kids have a lot of guests all the time? The neighbors would have no recourse. I can just imagine even trying to legislate that. "One party each calendar quarter per year, defined as 10 or more unrelated guests gathering, blah, blah, blah". Or even the towns folks' uproar over the TC even trying to control private parties. That's where common sense and neighborly-ness come into play. If you are the neighbor who lives next to the college student rental, the loud HS kids with no parental control or the neighbor who has not-for-profit events on a regular basis, it can be hell. It seems like the B&B thing and the private events matter are two separate things. One to be worked out among neighbors, the other for the TC to resolve. | |||
| Jonathan teixeira Citizen Username: Jhntxr Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2005 |
Oh yes ,there are people in maplewood that complain about just about everything.!!!I don't see why we can not have a B&B in Maplewood.And I am sure AJC has enough parking for the guests.So a bus is parked on the street..........the point is?????? Of course nobody would want to live next door to a banquet hall,and have cars parked all over the streets.But if there is ample parking on the premises,then it is a plus to Maplewood.Limit the munber of B&B's just like the limit on liquor licenses.It seems like this is more of a political issue.It's a shame because,Maplewood is a much better place to live because of people like AJC,and others who have given so much to this town. | |||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 5117 Registered: 12-2001  |
AJC you know you will always have my backing for this. As King of all said.. Please get this ordinance on the books already. It's ridiculous that people have to go to other communities to stay over night. | |||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4397 Registered: 9-2001 |
Thanks Duncan, I'm working on it. Actually there was a Planning Board meeting Wednesday night. Two months after being assigned the responsibility to prepare a draft ordinance, Jerry Ryan, former Mayor, and present Chair of the Ad Hoc Subcommittee for B&B Ordinance Drafting, turned in his report at the open public meeting. (last month his subcommittee was to busy to meet on the matter.) I really don’t have time at the moment to give you any details, but the bottom line is this, and I quote: "The subcommittee believes that, for a number of reasons, it would be a mistake to allow B&Bs in Maplewood." Mind you, one member of his committee stated that if it was just a matter of writing up an ordinance that could have been written it in about an hour and a half. Anyway, his four-page report, which by the way did NOT include the requested draft of the ordinance, listed their concerns and recommendations, which read like instructions to prepare for WWIII. When I get back tonight, I’ll fill you in on some of the details... | |||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4398 Registered: 9-2001 |
With all due respect, I feel it’s necessary to draw some straightforward lines between the subcommittee's negative one-sided report, and a more positive reality of what bed and breakfast can mean to a community like ours. However, after further thought, because of some of the problematical issues involved, I’ve decided it would be unfair to the good people who donate their time and efforts to the Planning Board to publicly argue my differences with them over the Internet. Conversely, if anyone is interested in more information on the subject, I will be happy to provide it by e-mail. | |||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 5988 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tres classy, Art. I hope that everything gets worked out. | |||
| Bart Albini Citizen Username: Bartalbini Post Number: 17 Registered: 9-2005 |
Art: I have always enjoyed B&B's when I have traveled to oher parts of this state and others. They not only bring a warmer, cosier atmosphere, but if the TC is really interested in bring more ratebles into Maplewood, one of the best ways is to have prospective business people stay in local B&B's. This gives them a style and direction they need to get a feel for what is needed. I will support the effort anyway I can. Bart | |||
| Scully Citizen Username: Scully Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2005 |
Add me to the 'pro' list. I'd love to have a B&B locally. | |||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 3050 Registered: 1-2004 |
Art- What can we do to help get this passed? | |||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 846 Registered: 2-2002 |
I think the subcommittee was mistaken in coming to their past conclusion that there should be no B&Bs. I feel confident that they will come back with strict guidelines for allowing such a nice quiet establishment to serve a need and live in harmony with it's neighbors. | |||
| KRNL Citizen Username: Krnl Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2005 |
Another vote for permitting B&B's to operate in Maplewood. Its difficult to imagine that any temporary irritation caused by a B&B could be any worse in our neigborhoods than those caused by the (depending on what drives you up the wall) day-to-day irritations (think leaf blower/mowing noise by professional gardeners, contractors of all sorts that are upgrading our homes, the dozens of car-door slammings generated as our kid-oriented neighbors embark and disembark, teen-aged celebrations, parking by church-goers on Sundays.... you name it. But, all things we can also see as part of the joy of a vital community) When we can't fit all our visitors into our homes it would be great to have local places for them to stay! | |||
| fredprofeta Citizen Username: Fredprofeta Post Number: 112 Registered: 10-2001 |
It seems to me that this thread has great potential for guiding the TC in a consideration of the B&B ordinance. First a little history. Over a year ago, the TC asked the Economic Development Advisory Committee and the Planning Board to provide opinions as to the advisability of having B&B's in Maplewood. In July of 2004, the EDAC voted unanimously to recommend B&B's. Later, the Planning Board, through its chair, Tom Carlson, also reported out favorably and provided the TC with recommended restrictions on the conversion of buildings to B&B's and on their operation. Several months ago, the TC decided it was time to draft an ordinance for consideration. That could have been done by the TC itself, but in deference to the PB's expertise in land use matters, a majority of the TC voted to ask the PB to draft the actual language. The PB then delegated the drafting work to a subcommittee of 4 persons. The charge was simple - draft the ordinance. The subcommitte did not draft the ordinance. Instead it recommended that B&B's not be allowed in Maplewood. The subcommitte has now been told that this report was not in accord with its charge, and has been directed to do the drafting work. The subcommittee presented several reasons for its opinion. Among them was the following: "The potential for neighborhood resistance is very high." This statement seems to be particularly appropriate for community comment. What do MOLer's think about this? Do you favor B&B's? Do you agree with the subcommittee's view that "The NIMBY factor will be extreme . . . ."? If there is a NIMBY factor, how should the TC balance that against the benefits (or not) of having B&B's? The subcommittee must now draft an ordinance. One way or the other, the TC will soon have one before it. Your posts here could provide us with valuable information to be used in our debate. | |||
| softparade Citizen Username: Softparade Post Number: 93 Registered: 8-2002 |
Please post the Planning Board Sub-Committee Memo and provide the EDOC support as well- The exact numbers that they provided as well as their expert testimony that they based their decision. | |||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 6002 Registered: 5-2001 |
Fred- I think that the NIMBY factor could be very extreme because of the history between Art and his neighbors. Between talking to some of them and Art's own postings over the years, I think it is safe to say that they can all be accused of not playing nice at times. It was not right for Art (this is several years ago, I believe) to hold numerous outdoor parties so that it disrupted his neighbors' enjoyment of their own yards more than just occassionly. It was not right for some neighbors to retaliate by blasting stereos, leaf-blowers and the like during outdoor weddings. If you take the "Art and the neighbors" factor out of the equation, I think that the NIMBY factor will not be as extreme. For example, there was an illegal B&B down the street from me a few years ago. The people have since moved away, but I never knew it until I was invited to a party at their house & shown the guest rooms during a tour of the home. I strongly believe that each B&B should have enough off-street parking for each licensed room. I do not think that they should be allowed, under any circumstances, to hold paid outdoor events. Perhaps this is unfair, but it is the compromise part of being allowed to use a residence for this type of business. I think that B&Bs should be able to serve breakfast outside in the nice weather. That is easy to regulate: whatever the legal capacity of the B&B is the number of guests allowed to dine outside. No amplified sound system. If B&B owners want to hold private parties, they will be subject to the same rules as the rest of us - you need a permit for amplified sound and the hours are regulated. As for idling buses, isn't there already a state law against this? If someone has a bus idling in front of their house (for any reason) they should ask the driver to turn off the engine and call MPD if it isn't done. Same for unruly guests. If someone has a party and guests are stumbling around my neighborhood, peeing everywhere and being loud, I am going to call MPD if it doesn't stop pretty quickly. Doesn't matter if it is a B&B or private party. It would behoove the B&B proponents to make up some sort of simple brochure or educational materials about what a B&B is/isn't and how it affects a neighborhood. More facts than marketing; put in the Pros and Cons. B&B applicants should have to meet with home owners with adjoining properties to explain how their business would work and hear concerns. Someone from the town licensing authority should have to attend that meeting as well. I would stop short of requiring all neighbors to agree; personal vendettas could get in the way. But, I would require legitmate concerns to be addressed before the license is granted (the role of the town representative would be to determine what is legitimate). The rhetoric & belligerance also needs to be toned down. There should be leeway for different permissions. I.e., my deck is very close to my next door neighbor's. If I wanted to have a B&B, I should not be allowed to have outdoor dining; why should my neighbors be subjected to rotating strangers dining 10 feet away on a potentially regular basis. OTOH, Art has enough distance and privacy that a table on the porch is not disruptive to the neighbors. All in all, if the neighbors feel like they have a voice and a real chance to discuss the implications, the NIMBY thing might not be so bad. If you foist it on neighbors as a done deal, you will piss people off. | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 7915 Registered: 4-1997 |
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| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 9728 Registered: 5-2001 |
Greentree makes a lot of sense. The issue here is that most houses here are close to their neighbors, making noise a possible issue. I think Art tended to use his home not only as a B&B, but also as a function facility and I think that would have to be controlled in the future. I think there is a demand for B&Bs here. Most everyone has out of town visitors from time to time and a B&B can be very convenient. | |||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 847 Registered: 2-2002 |
Since Fred asked: 1. No "events". Nobody needs or should be expected to put up with that next door for the sake of accommodating someone else's business, -it just ain't right. B&B -great. weddings, conferences etc -nix. 2. Need off-street parking for each room without paving their lawn. 3. Only homes with some kind of "larger-than-usual-Maplewood" distance between them and any of their neighbors. 4. Maximum number of rooms allowed for such use, (4? I dunno). 5. I dunno why guests should have to be allowed to eat outside, maybe guests could somehow manage to live without that for one or two mornings/evenings, (this ain't a resort town, afterall we're just talking about having a nice place for people to crash while they visit relatives etc). - who needs to be listening to strangers blah blah blah on Sunday morning? Tryin' to sleep Dammit! -Actually now that I think of, -nixing guests from being able to eat outside would really pretty much automatically nix any "events". 6. Most important, -the town must have the ability to fine and/or shut down such establishment for six months?, a year?, forever? -depending on the number of violations of whatever rules they come up with. Any rules should be weighted with the neighbors rights in mind. Operating a B&B is a business not a right. | |||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 1979 Registered: 9-2003  |
I agree with greenetree's post on this. I understand steel's, but I think it's a little harsh for the most part and harsher than is applied to residences. Especially in the summer, several of my neighbors routinely have large deck parties/barbeques where they play music fairly loudly outside, lots of guests, park up the street. I pretty much accept it as the price of houses being close together. I have been to Art's and my sister and family have stayed there. It fills a definite need, and fills it in an attractive, unique way. I don't see the big deal about breakfast outside as it's a very pleasant setting. If there's been past bad blood between neighbor's and the b&b it would be nice if it could be put in the rear view mirror with some guidelines in place. But those guidelines shouldn't be more stringent than those applied to nearby residences, in my view. | |||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 9731 Registered: 5-2001 |
Cyn, there is a difference between a neighbor having a party and renting out their home for a wedding reception. |
BBfax