| Author | Message | ||
     joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 112 Registered: 1-2006 |
Dogs do it, birds do it, (hey, how many birds can sit on the tau top and drop their waste on it?) bees do it, even educated fleas do it, let's do it, ...nah, forget it, let's not do it. Let the dogs do it. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4153 Registered: 1-2004  |
Pdg- Not sure what kept me up. I know if I didn't start to watch the meeting most likely I would have been asleep an hour earlier. But I had to wait until Midnight to take one of the horse pills I'm taking. Would you believe I get up at 5:30 every morning? | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 557 Registered: 5-2004  |
 I would fall on my face with so little sleep, JTA! I was glad to hear that you took care of yourself and are on the mend. (Now get to sleep earlier tonight and set your alarm for the horse pill.) | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 558 Registered: 5-2004 |
I think the Trustees should watch the recorded meetings ocassionally. I have two in mind that should watch this past Monday's meeting - I was simply shocked at how nasty they were to a resident. One Trustee in particular had me flashing back to my scary childhood with his "We made a decision!" declarations!  | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4160 Registered: 1-2004 |
Pdg Thanks! About to take the final two horse pills of the day and hit the hay! I think I hear my pillows calling me! Keeping on track, I think those of us who believe this statue is a mistake need to start writing letters to the Snooze Wrecked. Maybe Joel can use his column to make people aware of what's really going on. Maybe we can take up a collection a buy a page in the Snooze Wrecked. Having a transcript of what occurred the other night might open the eyes of some resident to realize what's really happening in town. I give a lot of credit to the gentleman who nailed the BOT on several points. While he stayed calm, some of the BOT's lost their cool. What a bunch a bullies they came across as... | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3428 Registered: 5-2001  |
PDG - Obviously ONE of the Trustees you are referring to is Arthur Taylor who stated "We made a decision!!!". I am curious who YOU considered to be the other "nasty" Trustee. JTA - I agree that the issue does need greater visibility as I think the majority of residents genuinely think we are receiving a "gift". | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 568 Registered: 5-2004 |
MHD, I really prefer not to name names, especially since I have never personally met them or had a negative issue with them, directly, myself. However, I strongly encourage others to take the time to watch Mondays meeting on their computer and judge for themselves. It's probably scary enough to get the courage to speak in public, especially if you have a criticism, and to be treated so rudely in such a "how dare you question" type of manner - its just beyond shameful. Especially since the details they were seeking are details that I believe should be officailly distributed to the entire community! These facts should have been made easily available to the public for years already, with regular updates as funding facts change! (JTA, I'm convinced the statue will happen, and in that location - I don't believe there is anything to be done at this point, which is a crying shame. However, I would still like to see publication of all the facts and numbers, in a clear and fully disclosed manner, in the Gaslight or a separate letter to all residents, such as Bill Calabrese has sent in the past.) | ||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3060 Registered: 5-2001  |
Before you all get started on the front page aticle in the Wrecker today, the caption writer got it wrong AGAIN!! The sculpture is NOT a replica and there is no ORIGINAL work of art. TAU is a limited edition created in a group of three. We will have one of the originals. I am not necessarily thrilled with the proposed placement, but I am excited over the prospect of having an original Tony Smith sculpture in his (and my) hometown. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3438 Registered: 5-2001 |
Nancy - and you have no concern at all about $410,000 of taxpayer money being spent on this? (I'm asking seriously) | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 130 Registered: 1-2006 |
nancy: a limited edition of three copies. repeat the word "copies" and repent. jd | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 131 Registered: 1-2006 |
see feb 28 post at 9:20 am. that is an original. three copies are not one original. we are transferring monies for a copy. jd | ||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3063 Registered: 5-2001 |
Joel, my dear old neighborhod friend, No, in the art world, sometimes, yes sometimes, art is created in series. Edvard Muench's The Scream exists in multiple versons (almost all of then stolen currently!). and there are many castings of Rodin's The Thinker. Not that I would compare Tau to The Thinker but would you object to an authorized casting of it for South Orange? It is NOT a copy of anything..it is a genuine Tony Smith. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3441 Registered: 5-2001 |
LL, Can you explain the DIFFERENCES between the statue that is being machine made with $410,000 of our tax dollars versus the statue that currently stands 15 miles away from here in front of Hunter College? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3442 Registered: 5-2001 |
LL, How many "genuine Picasso's" have been created in the last 25 years? How many "genuine Davinci's" have been created in the last 25 years? How many "genuine Smith's" have been created in the last 25 years? The answer: ZERO. They have all been DEAD for the last 25 years. Using your logic, I should put my copy of "The DaVinci Code" in a Musuem, because it has a "genuine DaVinci" on the front cover.  | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4181 Registered: 1-2004 |
MHD Hunter college is only 15 miles from here? LL You know I love and respect you, but I would rather see this half million dollars go to something else. Like to make repairs at the library maybe? How long did Tony Smith live here? When did he even live here? I've been here more then 40 years and have never heard of him, until recently. I think the BOT should have put this to a vote. Ask the residents if they want our taxes to pay for it. I don't care if it's only a dollar or one hundred dollars; the public is being misled. Of all the people I've spoken to, Not one is in favor of our tax money paying for this thing. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 578 Registered: 5-2004 |
I completely agree JTA! And I hold out optimistic hope that the Village will proudly publish all the details and make sure they are distributed to all S.O. residents well in advance of any ground breaking! If, as they claim, the statue and all the details of its funding are not a shocking surprise to the residents, no harm done and we have an official record to point to that will prevent "misinformation" being discussed on MOL. If, however, it IS a shocker, the BOT will surely hear about it from any residents who are so motivated and they will have a more realistic idea of whether this is something the majority of taxpayers WANT. I believe we want, first and foremost, to trust that our huge tax dollars are always spent very responsibly and honestly. To me, this can include public art - even art I don't care for personally! As long as the spending is FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE. (And I still can't get over the fountain and gazebo being built within the same past 8 years that Eric DeVaris says the statue has been planned within. It shows at a minimum a severe lack of planning and forethought! Why that spot was even an option for consideration is simply mind boggling!) | ||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3067 Registered: 5-2001 |
http://www.haberarts.com/tsmith.htm http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/smith_tony.html http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101671013,00.html http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/visualart/225623_tl125.html http://www.google.com/search?q=%22tony+smith%22+sculptor&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLG,GGLG :2005-25,GGLG:en&start=10&sa=N | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3446 Registered: 5-2001 |
LL, Glad to see that you know how to use Google. Funny how Trustee DeVaris tried to claim that Tony Smith is somehow "more famous" than Elizabeth Shue, Kevin Spacey or Lauryn Hill. However, since you are a fan of Google, here are approximate number of search results for each: Elizabeth Shue about 200,000 Kevin Spacey about 741,000 Lauryn Hill about 2,050,000 Tony Smith about 147,000 | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8804 Registered: 4-1997  |
I agree. Let's also have the town buy a DVD of each of their movies and show them on continous loop at SOPAC. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3447 Registered: 5-2001 |
I'll sell my copy of "American Beauty" to SOPAC and throw in a copy of the "Mideducation of Lauryn Hill" for a mere $405,000.  | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 579 Registered: 5-2004 |
Don't know what your point is LL, but I did read your first link and the author states...
Perhaps you agree that it is unfortunate that in the proposed location there isn't really enough walking room to offer full enjoyment of shifting views and so forth. Because you simply won't be able to get far enough away from it to enjoy it as it should be enjoyed without being hit by cars or a firetruck. Now, placement somewhere around Flood's Hill, or near the Baird Center, or a myriad of other park-like settings meant to encourage the slow pondering of the full circumference of Smith's art... Hmmm - Now that I'm thinking about it, it actually might be cool to be able to see it from far away, and then appreciate the immense size while it seems to grow before your eyes as you walk toward it... I think its growing on me.  But I still would like all my neighbors to know about it, and all the details, sooner rather than later. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 132 Registered: 1-2006 |
"Genuine Tony Smith" means nothing to me. His works are worshiped by aficionados of metallica. A few copies of cleverly bent sheets of metal does not make art to me. But, it does make public debt, and a large looming metallic shape in a tight space. And, if the accolytes would only admit it is a copy, maybe we could start to discuss what this copy is worth. jd | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8805 Registered: 4-1997 |
Also there aren't only 3 reproductions per se. There are 3 reproductions in that size. You can, for example, go out and buy a 3' version for your back yard sculpture garden. (I sense Joel will be private lining me for the details). | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 3243 Registered: 11-2001  |
According to the BoT, it makes for a minimalist debt if you consider a 10% increase for this year.  | ||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3068 Registered: 5-2001 |
PDG, From my afternoon March 2nd post....
| ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1382 Registered: 3-2002 |
LibraryLady is absolutely right on the issue of limited edition sculptures. When I was at Stanford, the university acquired a new casting of Rodin's Gates of Hell. The sculptor defines how many works will be the total edition of the sculpture. When a print artist does a limited edition print, the edition may be 100; when a sculptor does a limited edition sculpture/ casting, the edition is generally much smaller. Each member of the edition is an original, so in my opinion this argument is a red herring. We can argue about the placement of the art, or whether we like the style, but it is probably too late for either argument to matter. This is going to be a piece of provocative art, worthy of discussion and debate, as is true of much modern art. Personally, I think it is a fine sculpture for the town to acquire, but probably at the wrong location and the wrong price. I'd love to see a celebrity memorabilia display in the lobby of SOPAC to honor the many performing artists connected to this town, but again, this argument has little to do with the sculpture debate. The important question to me is how deeply the town is on the hook for this sculpture, and whether the amount is appropriate. What controls are in place, and why are we moving forward committing money before the promised fundraising is secure? | ||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3070 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thank you Susan. As usual, you are so eloquent (and asking the appropriate questions). | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 583 Registered: 5-2004 |
LL - I already had seen your March 2nd post. It really wasn't all that long ago. Your 1st March 3 post came right after mine, and it was unclear whether it was in response to my post, or another's post, or just your own new thought. So, my 3/3 12:31 post was basically a question to you asking if perhaps THAT (space issue/placement of statue) was the point of your multiple links post. Hopefully you see now that my question is and was "appropriate". I still am hoping to learn what it was you were trying to add by pasting links to so many reading assignments without summarizing your reason for doing so. As stated above, I read the first article, a very looooonnnnngggggg and boring essay, but since nothing new was being added by it I was not motivated to read your further assignments without first asking you to clarify the point you were hoping to make. Especially since it may have been made already - such as the placement issue. Thanks for helping little old me understand! Just trying to keep up!  (And Susan, I too agree your questions are well put and need an official answer, not just on this message board, so that all our S.O. neighbors understand it thoroughly.) | ||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3071 Registered: 5-2001 |
PDG, Sorry I wasn't clear. Somethings things get cross posted. (And your questions are on target and eloquent as well  The point of the article list was to in response to JTA's post
Tony Smith is no flash in the pan, pseudo-celebrity but a esteemly, well regarded artist. Comparing number of Google listings, as MHD did, really isn't a reasonable way of judging someones "importance". As for Elizabeth Shue, I still can't get rid of her Columbia yearbook as all the celebrity yearbook collectors keep telling me she is washed up. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 584 Registered: 5-2004 |
Thank you!  | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3448 Registered: 5-2001 |
LL, Since you are a fan of Wikipedia on other threads, how about comparing entries in Wikipedia to judge "fame": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Shue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Spacey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauryn_Hill No entry for Tony Smith. Go figure. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2483 Registered: 5-2004  |
MHD, by your reasoning, Pamela Anderson, with around 14 MILLION links, would be more deserving of a "memorial" since she has more google hits than any of the people you mention. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3452 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rastro, LOL! I bet even Pamela's "enhancements" didn't cost $410,000. In all seriousness, the point was not about who was "most deserving" or "most important" - it was to counter Trustee Devaris' point that Tony Smith was somehow more "world reknowned" and that none of the other celebrities will be remembered by anyone long after their death. I think MOST people would agree that most celebrities from "pop culture" are far more likely to be known and remembered by a far wider worldwide audience than a niche artist. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 136 Registered: 1-2006 |
Again, this town government joins the narcissistic who convince themselves that a copy is an original, if owning one gives them bragging rights. It is a sorry day for the English language when intelligent posters attempt to explain that a copy is an original because it is an original copy. jd | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 592 Registered: 5-2004 |
LL - "when did Tony Smith live here and for how long?" From your links I learned - "Born in 1912 in South Orange, New Jersey" "Smith, who died in 1980, is probably best known today as the father of contemporary artist Kiki Smith, but in his heyday he was an important figure in lean and muscular post-WWII sculptural abstraction." "Smith joins a roster of park artists that includes Louis Bourgeois, Richard Serra, Mark Di Suvero, Ellsworth Kelly, Anthony Caro, Roxie Paine, Teresita Fernandez, Glenn Rudolph and Mark Dion" While trying to learn how LONG Smith lived in S. Orange, I changed the word "sculpture" in your google search results (your last link) and added "biography" instead. That is how I discovered that there is another artist named Tony Smith who is a "sports painter', but not a sculptor - important for anyone out there interested in numbers-of-searches data - make sure you google the right guy. Anyone know exactly how long Smith lived here? (Such details would be included on a descriptive plaque located next to the statue, so I'm guessing that someone knows the facts.) I've seen mention that his daughter Kiki helped him build his models and that she grew up in NJ. But she was born in Nuremberg Germany where the family lived for an undisclosed time. An interesting quote from her regarding growing up in the shadow of her father...
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| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1386 Registered: 3-2002 |
Joel, please, please go visit the Rodin Museum and explain to them that all of their sculptures are copies, since they are part of small limited editions. (is only the mold the original?) The original artist/sculptor defines how many "legal" prints/castings/fabrications can be made, and that many are originals. Intelligent posters do indeed understand the terms under which various kinds of art are made. Do you? We can debate whether this is the right art, the right location, the right price. But, in my opinion, you weaken any arguments you have when you get into an argument with the artist's estate about whether the art is "real". | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 139 Registered: 1-2006 |
I am explaining to you that I don't want a copy of a Smith, someone I never heard of in my life until some local empowered assayers of art decided to shove one down my wallet. It is question of taste, and you are not my arbiter. If you want to qvell, go to Hunter. Don't shoe-horn in one here next to an elongated brick wall which will not complement it at all. And, it really doesn't coordinate with the old fire house, does it? This whole Smith thing is governmental diversion from its appalling failures. Oui? jd jd | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3454 Registered: 5-2001 |
Out of respect for Trustee DeVaris, I would just like to clarify that my posts on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 12:10 am and Friday, March 3, 2006 - 11:37 am were in response to MY INTERPRETATION of what Trustee Devaris stated at Monday's BOT Meeting and posted here on MOL last Summer. I was not quoting him directly and was only infering what his words sounded and read like to me personally. Perhaps I should have directed my remarks instead to Library Lady's post on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 11:21 am which seems to infer that a Time Magazine cover is grounds for $500,000 of taxpayer money being spent in honor of a local resident. http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101990208,00.html http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101640228,00.html | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 27 Registered: 2-2006 |
The salient issues about the Tony Smith sculpture, in their order of importance are these: 1) South Orange cannot afford it. There is a budgetary deficit this year and the debt service of South Orange from last year to this has increased between 40-50%, nearly a million dollars, for a total that exceeds $3.2 million. There is every reason to expect this acute rise will increase unabated, perhaps even this year but certainly in the next several years. In virtual admission of this fact, and/or a portrait of conditions that gave rise to it, the town has never accounted in any credible or even coherent way for the sculpture’s funding. For this reason, it has every appearance of being a “governmental diversion from its appalling failures.” (jd) 2) In the dearth of any real explanation for the sculpture’s funding, other than the clear and unapologetic admission by the BOT and town administration that increased taxes will guarantee any and all other sources of dubious funding, opponents have made far more credible claims that even sources of funding for the sculpture the town claims are not from tax revenues, on the contrary are. So there is additional bitterness among the public because of their reasonable conclusion they have been lied to about the funding of the sculpture, as well as the price their complacent and indifferent leaders are extracting from them in sharply increased and increasing taxes. Many constituents of the BOT fear they may lose their homes to increased taxes while the BOT has proven itself unable to ensure a balanced budget that might prevent it. The public is averse to fund this sculpture because it has been the subject of deceit and entitlement spending on the part of the BOT and town administration, both of which appear incapable of admitting, let alone facing and engaging, realities, whether ethical, political, administrative or fiscal. One possible exception to this sorry state may be Trustee Rosner who has promised to produce a full accounting of the sculpture’s funding. While it hopefully is forthcoming, it has not yet been produced. Whether he would then be able to convince other leaders of the town not to plunge the town further into debt by assuming unspecified costs for the sculpture remains to be seen; it appears he lacks the will to do so, unless we hear otherwise. 3) As though these problems weren’t enough, many also feel the sculpture is far less than town officials purport: it would be poorly placed near the train station for reasons of scale and aesthetics; it is truly specious to claim it would draw people to South Orange when another of the same sculpture is in Manhattan; the price is too high given the close proximity of the Manhattan replica; it further misrepresents how the town may come by the sculpture to call it, as the BOT does, a “gift,” further embittering the public. | ||
| Sitoyan Citizen Username: Sitoyan Post Number: 151 Registered: 7-2004 |
MHD, Thank you for your clarification in your post of 8:06 pm yesterday. I appreciate it. Eric |
