| Author | Message | ||
     LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3075 Registered: 5-2001  |
\quote {Out of respect for Trustee DeVaris, I would just like to clarify that my posts on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 12:10 am and Friday, March 3, 2006 - 11:37 am } Can someone (MHD?) please let me know on which thread the two posts that MHD refers in the quote above are? Is it on this thread cause I don't see them? Were the removed or are the on another thread. Thank you, LL | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3455 Registered: 5-2001  |
LL - Yes...this thread (scroll up) Sitoyan/Eric - you are welcome. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 29 Registered: 2-2006 |
In response to Trustee Rosner's private email to me claiming that he received a document last summer explaining the source of funds to purchase the Tony Smith sculpture and itemizing its expenses, would you please post it on MOL? Whatever explanation has been provided, please let all of us know. Thank you. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 30 Registered: 2-2006 |
A further question I forgot to ask, Trustee Rosner, is whether the village president has signed a contract to have the sculpture fabricated? If so, how much is the town paying for the fabrication? Thank you again. | ||
| SO1969 Citizen Username: Bklyn1969 Post Number: 220 Registered: 7-2004 |
Not having seen the BOT meeting or read all of the above, a few points bear repeating on this topic until it is resolved: (1) As noted in a post above, Tony Smith is a "park" artist. The location for this sculpture is inappropriate. (2) Buying/paying for art at this price level is something bodies (almost all private entities with private funding) much richer than SO Village engage in - SO Village has no business doing this while basics like drinking water, street paving, and the like have many unmet needs. (3) If Eric DeVaris and the other Trustees who voted for it are so sure this is what residents want, then they should support printing the following in the Gaslight: a) A high quality drawing depicting the statue in its proposed location with a map clearly marking the location b) A detailed budget including all public and private sources and uses. For unraised private funds, those sources should be so labeled and an explanation for how those amounts will be covered if the fundraising doesn't materialize should be included. This project boggles my mind on so many levels it is hard to know where to start. If transaction costs weren't what they are, I'd threaten to leave SO over this. This is a case of gross malfeasance and incredibly poor judgment on the part of our elected officials. | ||
| Sitoyan Citizen Username: Sitoyan Post Number: 152 Registered: 7-2004 |
`````DeVaris has explained very clearly his position on the Tony Smith sculpture. Your previous posts did not do justice to him. It is decent of you to clarify them. | ||
| SO1969 Citizen Username: Bklyn1969 Post Number: 221 Registered: 7-2004 |
The question - Eric / Sitoyan - is will you support full disclosure - open government - via the Gaslight? From your posts, it seems you're just hearing from the dozen or so malcontents here and the 200 paying supporters (thus leaving you with the deluded sense that the supporters reflect the majority of taxpayers and the folks critical of the project are the minority - the majority of posters on MOL, but the minority in the larger community). I am highly confident publication in the Gaslight will illicit a strong repsonse from the community - don't you want to know what that response will be? So, do a true disclosure in the Gaslight or no? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3457 Registered: 5-2001 |
SO1969, I agree with you, but you should add a requirement for a disclosure of the names of all people on the fundraising commitee for the statue. I have a strong suspicion several of them are either ON the Board of Trustees and/or contributed money to their campaigns. | ||
| Sitoyan Citizen Username: Sitoyan Post Number: 153 Registered: 7-2004 |
My unfinished message above reads as if it is signed Eric, as if it signed by Eric DeVaris. I screwed up somehow and cut-off my message. My apologies to Eric DeVaris. I already sent him an e-mail with my apologies. Zarah | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 31 Registered: 2-2006 |
SO1969, in response to your request that the BOT provide, "b) A detailed budget including all public and private sources and uses. For unraised private funds, those sources should be so labeled and an explanation for how those amounts will be covered if the fundraising doesn't materialize should be included.", at the last BOT meeting, several trustees said clearly that they expected tax payers to pay for any and all expenses for the sculpture that are not funded through other means. At the moment, very little has been funded through other means and there is little indication that this will change. If you wish to air your reasonable concerns and questions to more than a handful of "malcontents" on MOL, it would be helpful to the town to pose the same questions in local newspapers. It would also be useful if someone made an OPRA request to the town to see if the town has already signed yet another bad contract to have the sculpture fabricated. If so, we could then learn how much the town is paying initially to purchase the sculpture. Other costs will follow later. MHD, you are correct that a list of contributors to trustees' campaigns and contributors to the Tony Smith sculpture effort need to be compared. But aside from the amounts any one has contributed to the sculpture, the names of people advocating that the town pay for most of the cost of the sculpture should be compared with financial and other supporters from trustees' campaigns. Sitoyan/Eric/Zarah, what other names to you go by? Just curious.... | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3459 Registered: 5-2001 |
Previously, the only mentions of this project in the Gaslight were as follows: April 2004 The Tony Smith Sculpture Project aims to obtain a permanent, outdoor Smith sculpture for downtown South Orange. September 2005 An eight-year resident of South Orange, the artist hopes one day that his location will become part of an “artists’way.” In fact, his gallery offers a terrace view of the spot where a sculpture by famed South Orange artist Tony Smith is planned for permanent placement. Not one single public mention of COST in the Gaslight. | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 465 Registered: 1-2004  |
SOrising, I submitted an OPRA request for the contract on Tuesday morning. Still waiting..... | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 32 Registered: 2-2006 |
Great Howard. Thank you for the entire town. Are you sure that a contract exists now, has been signed, since the BOT is not answering this question? Isn't there a time limit to respond to an OPRA request? Anyone know what it is? | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 595 Registered: 5-2004  |
I heard on good authority that "the village has already contracted with the fabricator." Whether that means a contract was signed is not certain to me, but it seems so. Even if there is no way out and no way to change the location of the statue, the Village still should have the courage and honesty to fully disclose all the details and face the applause, or the wrath of the taxpayers! | ||
| Eric DeVaris Citizen Username: Eric_devaris Post Number: 291 Registered: 2-2003  |
MHD, Although it seems that Sitoyan did it for me, I wish to thank you for explaining that your post did not quote my words but rather your interpretation of my words. It was decent of you to do so. | ||
| Eric DeVaris Citizen Username: Eric_devaris Post Number: 292 Registered: 2-2003 |
Sitoyan, No problem. Thank you for your support. | ||
| Eric DeVaris Citizen Username: Eric_devaris Post Number: 293 Registered: 2-2003 |
Many of the questions raised in this thread are addressed in the following link: http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=3133&post=441148#POST4411 48 Additional information I have to offer: in the last BoT meeting the Board approved a resolution authorizing the Village President to sign a contract for the fabrication of the sculpture. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 110 Registered: 12-2004 |
Speaking about art, what is the story about the four legged spider with a metal head band? I am talking about the "art work" planted in front of Dunkin Donuts. What is that all about? Who made it? How much did it cost us? What other art was considered for that prominent position? Who likes it? Eric, I am curious what you think about it? Is it beautiful? Is it sophisticated? Is it worth what we paid for it? Inquiring minds want to know. Looking forward to the response, from anyone. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1390 Registered: 3-2002 |
Eric, Thanks for the link to your earlier and very detailed posting. One question. You say that: "The Village has allotted to the project $250,000 it received from the County’s Community Development Block Grant. The Lennie Pierro Memorial Arts Foundation has committed to raise the remainder needed to complete the project through private donations." Does that mean that the Village is only on the hook for $250K no matter what? What does a commitment from the foundation mean? Does it mean that they hope to raise the rest, or that they are contractually committed to raise the rest? Is the $250K the entire Village contribution for everything, or do we also have costs for site prep, ongoing care, etc.? Thanks for any clarifications | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 429 Registered: 6-2005 |
Didn't Calabrese say that the village would pay for any shortfall of the committee? Sounds to me that the taxpayers may well wind up being responsible. If all the committee could raise from their kickoff was $25,000, how do they expect to come up with the rest? Did the BOT seen a fundraising plan from them before they signed a fabrication contract? Or was it just "faith"? | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2489 Registered: 5-2004  |
I'm surprised the head of the CoC doesn't know the answers to those questions, and has to ask here on MOL rather than an informed, non-anonymous source. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2006 |
Rastro, CoC? Thanks. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3467 Registered: 5-2001 |
CoC = Chamber of Commerce | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 39 Registered: 2-2006 |
In another thread, Trustee Rosner just denied that $250,000 was applied to the TS sculpture. He said no grants have been obtained for the sculpture. See the thread TR initiated on the sculpture. I ask all Trustees to talk among themselves and let us know what the truth is. Thank you. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 111 Registered: 12-2004 |
Rastro, as everybody knows, even you, the head of the CoC is not very smart. I would say she is somewhat dense, maybe even downright stupid. However, she managed to ask certain questions on MOL, which even you, with all your superior intelligence and wisdom, could not answer for her. So far, no one else has answered, either. Very interesting! Perhaps the public focus should shift from the Tony Smith sculpture to the four legged spider. Perhaps we need to establish a base line for the manner in which public art is funded in South Orange. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2497 Registered: 5-2004 |
Elaine, I don't believe this for a minute.  See, now you're just being nasty. I have never claimed superior intelligence and wisdom. But one would think there are better ways to get a question or set of questions like yours answered than asking on MOL. Perhaps if you contacted someone at Village Hall, they could answer the question for you. I somehow don't think the cost of the spider (not to mention the placement and upkeep) compares to Tau. Wow, we actually a gree on something. And to think, no hidden agenda. | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 3268 Registered: 11-2001  |
One other thing, base line intellects are easy to assess online.
You don't follow the day's discussions on this board too well, do you? | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 112 Registered: 12-2004 |
Rastro: I think your post 2489 was rude towards me and that you invited the punch back. So, now we are even and let's move ahead. Quite frankly, all the appropriate people in Village Hall read this board constantly. They could answer this question, if they wanted to. So could the art mavens in this Village. I find it almost amusing that no one has yet responded. By the way, I also have an art background. I am a former film teacher with a degree in art history. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2500 Registered: 5-2004 |
Pizzaz, you'd be very surprised at how difficult it is to assess someone's intellect by their online postings. I'm sorry. I must have missed where she said she called village hall and no one could answer her question. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 114 Registered: 12-2004 |
Pizzaz: I have no idea what you mean. What you wrote makes no sense to me. Rastro: ditto. To the world at large: May all your spider statues be fruitful and multiply. | ||
| Eric DeVaris Citizen Username: Eric_devaris Post Number: 299 Registered: 2-2003 |
Elaine, My answer to your question regarding the artwork in front of Dunking Donuts: “Eric, I am curious what you think about it? Is it beautiful? Is it sophisticated? Is it worth what we paid for it?” I don’t know what we paid for it. It was installed long before I was elected trustee. I don’t like that piece as a public art. It may satisfy the taste of some homeowner who would place it in a private garden. It falls in the same category of another public art piece we treasure: the big orange on a lamp-post in front of the Middle School. It appears that someone in our government thought of both those pieces as public art, worthy of representing our community, and satisfying the tastes of our residents. In my opinion they are not. | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 3270 Registered: 11-2001 |
as you say, Elaine.  | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 117 Registered: 12-2004 |
Eric, thank you. You have restored my faith that there is still taste somewhere in this world. I would label this statue as cringe-worthy. That is definitely the emotion it evokes from me. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2503 Registered: 5-2004 |
Elaine, my point is that it seems like you'd rather post here and try to embarrass people than actually get an answer to your question. You could have simply called the people from Village Hall that you say read this board constantly. Then posted the response. But you appear to be more interested in scoring points than actually getting to the bottom of things. If you really want answers to the questions, do you really think this is the most efficient way to find them? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8823 Registered: 4-1997  |
I'm shocked, shocked, I say, that people would use this message board to score political points. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2506 Registered: 5-2004 |
Shocked?   I'm not shocked, but I feel no need to sit back and ignore it. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 118 Registered: 12-2004 |
Rastro, allow me to explain. Discussion boards are very new to the social landscape. In the "olden days" people would wander into the village marketplace and sit around on stones or cracker barrels to share ideas and exchange information. The point of my questions are more to raise public awareness and jolt complacency. Stated otherwise, to make people think. Sure I could go to Village Hall. But I choose not to primarily due to the fact that past experience leads me to believe it would be a fruitless act and I do not wish to waste my time. I enjoy much more engaging in this dialogue with you, and in the long run, it gets the message out better. For example, how can I possibly "embarrass" anyone by asking a question? It seems to me that you are assuming that the answers to my questions would not be favorable to the governing body. Well, let the sun shine in. There is a major issue in our culture that people take too much for granted. For example, "public art." Is the Tony Smith sculpture "public art"? Does "art" become "public art" merely because it was paid for by the public, or does it have to be commissioned by the public for a public purpose to have that title? I purposely used the spider statue example because it must be analogous. If not, then we have a problem. If we are buying Tony Smith art because he is world reknowned and a former resident, then why did we buy the spider, and who is going to be embarrassed by my question? Perhaps someone will be embarrassed by their answer, but not by my question, and that is for the public to know. Quite frankly, Rastro, I am not going after the government, my target is the public. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 51 Registered: 2-2006 |
Clearly, this public bulletin board facilitates community discussions. Clearly it can (no guarantees, but can) provide helpful and truthful information. Its benefits are enhanced by the fact that South Orange's own website does not reliably contain information or enough information that should be available to the public. Several trustees read and respond to this board. This is a good thing. Several abstain from using it. This is not a good thing. One reason why Elaine and many others should not be forced into one-on-one conversations with town officials is because in this format, town officials may each provide contradictory and mutually exclusive information. And the information coming from the village administration at BOT meetings also disagrees with what trustees claim on this bulletin board and in one-to-one conversations. We have seen this most recently with various, competing and contradictory explanations about how the TS sculpture is being paid for. So is the solution, Rastro, to abandon MOL, to shoot the messenger? One-on-one conversations are worthwhile when the people you talk to have accurate information and can be trusted. But one-on-one conversations can also be used to obfuscate and dissemble, to divide and conquer. Who knows whether what we witness is merely a bad act from Keystone Cops or something more sinister. Perhaps there is some of both admixed. I just don't see that your complaint against Elaine, Rastro, has much purchase, all things considered. I also find her points well taken and therefore benefiting the discussion as a whole. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2511 Registered: 5-2004 |
SOrising, given that I have over 2500 posts here, I would hardly say the solution is to abandon MOL. But by the same token, this is not an official South Orange government site. So while we can discuss and discuss things here, and definitely gain information that we could not otherwise, it is important to recognize that we won't get teh full picture here. Plus, the most contentious BOT members do not post here, even if they read the boards. So while we may get answers from Mark and Eric, and occassionally Allan, the people we most want to hear from will be absent. Given that, wouldn't it be better to engage Bill, Art, John, and any other administration members that we have questions for, directly? I cannot imagine anyone posting here expects Bill Calabrese to answer a question posted here. Asking Mark or Eric to answer for him is unfair. So to me, the logical next step would be to try to speak with those administration members one on one. Otherwise, it's just complaining to complain. As for the TS sculpture, I don't find the responses to necessarily be contradictory. I'm trying to get more information (offline, actually). | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3488 Registered: 5-2001 |
I finally "noticed" the 4-legged-spider-thing by Dunkin Donuts and was wondering if anyone knew what materials it was made of. |
