| Author | Message | ||
     MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3919 Registered: 5-2001  |
Just back from the Neighborhood Meeting tonight and a question was raised about the Supermarket and the Operator. It seems that John Choi may or may not be the operator & nobody seems to know who the operator will be! When Stirling took over the project from Steve Skollar, they decided to speak to other operators, but nobody knew who that may be. All in all it was an interesting meeting, with about 40 residents in attendance, asking questions to Trustees Taylor, Rosen, Rosner, Devaris & Jennings. Calabrese & Terriann were absent. However, as usual, Ed Matthews fielded about 80% of all questions asked. | ||
| vermontgolfer Supporter Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 418 Registered: 12-2002 |
MHD, I'm sorry, I must have not heard you correctly. No one knows who the supermarket operator is? They've got to be kidding, right? (tongue planted firmly in cheek before any really answers that) We're reaching new levels of ineptness. | ||
| Guitar Dad Citizen Username: Guitardad Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2006  |
All I could do was shake my head in disbelief. It was my first town meeting, but it won't be my last. Crazy. I was there specifically regarding the issue of noisy college renters on our block and what can be done to punish these lax owners who continue to rent to large, organized (brothers in a fraternity), and noisy groups. At least the answers to those questions weren't as hopeless and mindboggling as the East Orange Water and Supermarket responses. I really had to see it for myself I guess! Sitting there, watching everyone rub their foreheads and shake their heads at the lack of real answers -- it felt like the "townspeople" had arrived at that "Frankenstein moment," when everyone lights up a torch, grabs some boiling oil and heads to the big castle up the hill to take matters into their own hands. It's coming. | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 594 Registered: 6-2005 |
Was Calabrese or Matthews elected Village President? Calabrese is a no show for something that has been advertised to the public for months. TerriAnn doesn't show. What else is new? And Matthews answers for everybody. But there were a few notable comments. They may not be exact, but are sustantially what was said. Rosen: "We don't know anything," when speaking of the supermarket site. (Weren't they elected to know something?) Jennings: "I won't mention any date" (nothing like not wanting to be accountable.) Matthews: "The contract with the water company expires in 2016." (i.e. live with it and get a water softener, and don't expect the water surplus fund money to be returned to the taxpayers.) "Residential development has always been our focus" (when speaking of the Shop Rite property. I thought our focus was a supermarket. Stupid me.) And we have to live with that ugly Shop Rite building because if they tear it down they can't build something as high again. Why do we want something that high again? Get rid of it and build something more in line with a suburban downtown!) All in all, a nice evening of blood boiling. | ||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1172 Registered: 5-2003 |
Dragged my husband to the meeting tonight. I've been following the trustees' meetings on line; he never did. Tonight was a real eye-opener for him. He was amazed at the level of stonewalling and incompetence. I never heard so many "I don't knows" in my life. AS trustees, it's their job to know. And if they don't do their job, let's kick them out. Thank you to the person who made up the fliers of the Tau monstrosity. It lets people see just what we're in for if that thing actually becomes a reality. | ||
| bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 22957 Registered: 6-2001  |
I am really glad to see vigorous objection to the status quo. Some of us have been saying it forever and were ridiculed and taunted for questioning "the plan" in that torture chamber of a meeting room (umm, every other space is air-conditioned so why isn't this?). I ventured in to South Orange Specific and now I'm venturing out. I have subscribed to an email list. It's not enough. Spread the word - villagers are idiots 'cause they keep this unaccountable "vision" crapola in play. Shameful. Ick. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2917 Registered: 5-2004  |
Perhaps next time Matthews begins to answer a question directed to a trustee, the questioner should explain that they were asking the trustee, and not Mr. Matthews. He may simply not realie how rude he is being by jumping on the questions rather than letting the trustees respond.  | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 1902 Registered: 8-2002 |
Keep in mind whose job is whose -- the trustees direct and decide policy -- while village administrators execute. When the BOT does not know, can't answer about dates, or is unclear about what's going in -- that is a direct reflection on the job the paid village execs are doing (Gross? Matthews? who else?). If the BOT doesn't have the information and can't get it -- THEY need to start pointing fingers at the ones responsible. Of course, that the BOT has been letting this happen, that's their fault. /p | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1703 Registered: 3-2003 |
During the election, one question asked of the candidates was what they would do to ensure that a supermarket was built. Jennings and Moore-Abrams both responded in the same manner: it's a "done deal." So I think they have an obligation to find out what's going on. (As a matter of fact, I think Eric responded in the same manner.) All three said basically that it's a done deal, and they just had to make sure it moves along. | ||
| Duck Duck Goose Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 393 Registered: 6-2005  |
Full disclosure.... I agree, Spitz! If we are not in charge of this project any longer and a viable retailer is not found shortly with our approval, we should call the deal off. Let's move on to something else but only after we terminate the services of the village counsel, administrator and initiate an investigation of the village president! Enough is enough! | ||
| Lucy Supporter Username: Lucy Post Number: 3497 Registered: 5-2005  |
The developer has been named just try and take it away from him$$$$$$$  | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1704 Registered: 3-2003 |
The whole deal was based on the premise that in order to get someone to redevelop and operate a market, it was necessary to include the right to develop residential units on Vose. This was also the reason given for the granting of a PILOT. In the spring of 2005, when the PILOT agreement was discussed at a BOT meeting, the residents were assured that a market would in fact be built and operated. The basis of this was that John Choi stood up and said he had a 30 year lease for the market. Now it is apparent that John Choi is not in the picture, and the assurances given to the residents of SO were false. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 674 Registered: 4-2005  |
Spitz - I highly believe that Calabrese told Jennings and Moore-Abrams that the supermarket was a "done deal" during the campaign. | ||
| JoRo Citizen Username: Autojoe51 Post Number: 103 Registered: 10-2005 |
Some of what I took away from the meeting was: We signed deals that give us very little leverage over the developers even though we've granted them PILOTS. We have the right of refusal on the supermarket operator, but can't do anything concrete to further the process. (However, the Village was involved in trying to bring King's and others to the table. Not sure why we're not being similarly proactive with independent grocers et al, Dean & Deluca, Gourmet Garage, Mom & Pop, etc.) For now, no good answer on the hard water issue. | ||
| Tracey Randinelli Citizen Username: Traceyr Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2005 |
John Choi as the supermarket operator has been a "done deal" for more than a year now, if you believe Village administration. The Village named him as market operator in a redevelopment update, which is here: http://www.southorange.org/development.asp?project=12 The Star Ledger named him as the operator in a March 2005 story--I don't have a link, but here's a graf from the article: "The store, tentatively named South Orange Market, will be a gourmet grocery store offering prepared foods and other upscale food products, such as specialty coffees and cheeses. John Choi, the operator of the store, said he hopes to open by Thanksgiving or Christmas." Anyone in Village government who thinks this has been publicized as anything less than a "done deal" is nuts. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1705 Registered: 3-2003 |
The fact of the matter is that we're in this position because the space is smaller than most market operators are looking for. This didn't have to be the case. There were other locations where a larger market could have been built, e.g., third st. or Beifus, but they would have included a pharmacy. Therefore, we're left with having to do cartwheels to get a market in the smaller location. And that's the real story. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 315 Registered: 2-2006 |
JoRo, there is a long-standing pattern of the town signing bad contracts that don't protect it. Ultimately, the trustees are responsible for this because they decide on what attorney or attorneys to hire for the town's work. One or more of them may be telling the present town attorney to write contracts that sell out the town and have resulted in numerous bad contracts for the town. But one way or another, the trustees are responsible for the bad legal obligations the town ties itself to and the millions it costs us. The village president will continue to wreck havoc on the town between now and the next election, roughly a year from now, plenty of time to do significant damage. A recall is the only way to stop him. | ||
| JoRo Citizen Username: Autojoe51 Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2005 |
On another note, the "Newmarket" building that Mr. Matthews noted can't be torn down due to NJ Transit rules on rebuilding shouldn't be torn down. It would appear to me that it's one of the older buildings in town (I believe it's in a photo dated from the late 1800s in Naoma Welk's book on S.O.), and it's actually quite attractive once you get beyond the superficial dilapidation. Let's move away from slash and burn, and think more about intelligent renovation, reuse and restoration. The town leaders need to think outside the box, engineer newer, smarter solutions. Come on, folks! | ||
| SO1969 Citizen Username: Bklyn1969 Post Number: 290 Registered: 7-2004 |
Seems counter intuitive. We want progress. But anything that is not already in progress (I use that term loosely), e.g., Valley Street redevelopment, needs to be STALLED, STALLED, STALLED for the reasons SOrising identifies. Must wait until Calabrese is out and administration/legal is revamped before making big decisions. I think JoRO is spot on with the New Market shell. Shell is not the problem - its current condition is a symptom of our problems, but it isn't the problem and should remain. | ||
| Mary32 Citizen Username: Mary32 Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2006 |
The Calabrese dictatorship does not allow for a large supermarket because it would include a pharmacy, bad business for the "Prescription Counter", Calabrese's store. So we are limited to a "gourmet supermarket". Calabrese wasn't there yesterday! And this was advertised as a communications meeting? He doesn't have to communicate with the public, his pawns are doing it for him: Gross, Matthews, Rosen, Moore-Abrams, Taylor, Jennings. Calabrese didn't show to any of the budget workshop meetings of January February and March - not even one. Some mayor! not involved in the budget of his town! But it's alright. He has a vision, and we vote him in over and over again. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 385 Registered: 1-2006 |
Why was the Village Attorney there? He is paid for his time, and the meeting was one where he should have attended only as a village resident. Maybe he did. Will he bill for his time? jd | ||
| srg227 Citizen Username: Srg227 Post Number: 41 Registered: 6-2004 |
Wait a second. March 2005: John Choi is the operator (Star-Ledger, Village of S.O. website) April 2006: we're not sure who the operator is. Might be John, might not be John (yesterday's meeting) Are these facts in dispute? Because if not, then SOMETHING must have happened to make the 100% certainty of Mr. Choi being the operator, now no longer be 100%. And if that's the case, the Trustees certainly are aware of whatever that 'something' is. Unless they're being willfully ignorant. | ||
| kevin Supporter Username: Kevin Post Number: 681 Registered: 2-2002 |
Are any of these projects with residental (Newmarket, Beifus, Sayid) going to be built if the real estate market takes a whack since the developers are counting on residential units? Why does NJ Transit have say in regards to tearing down and rebuilding the "Newmarket" (Shoprite) building? While facing the old Shoprite building, the entire left cube was added on at somepoint, so it is not original. I don't have a full shot, but you can see it in this shot from around the turn of the century before they built the raised station platform.  | ||
| Agrackle Citizen Username: Agrackle Post Number: 43 Registered: 2-2004 |
I found the link in Tracey's post interesting because it sets a 1994 date for when the town decided to begin redeveloping the downtown. Based on what I heard last night at the meeting, this is roughly when Livingston began their redevelopment process. Now it seems that the two can be compared on an apples to apples basis, no? Also, I was shocked at Stacey Jenning's response to one resident who mentioned that she had been living here for 13 years and believed that the redevelopment began at around the time she moved here. Stacey's rebuttal was that she (Stacey) moved here 12 years ago and the other resident is clearly not being accurate. So let me do the math.....1994 redevelopment begins.....it's 2006 now....seems like around 12 years. I guess Stacey had every right to chastise the resident for making such a monumental mistake in timing. What a joke! | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 596 Registered: 6-2005 |
To those who think we should keep the Shop Rite building, I would agree if it looked like the photo. But its a mess, and no plans which have been shown along the way look anything like it. Part of BC's vision, I guess. And BTW, I am thinking about what Matthews said, namely that it could not be torn down because of height restrictions on any new building. What about SOPAC or the proposed Beifus building? Don't they tower over the old Shop Rite, and don't they abut NJ Transit. What's he talking about? And about Matthews billing for last night? It wasn't supposed to be a night with the village attorney. It was supposed to be a night with the BOT members. That the BOT members let him speak for them, is outrageous. From now on, we need to insist that BOT people answer when a question is directed at them. Not Matthews. As a taxpayer, if I have to pay him for last night, I am irate. How can we find out? | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1706 Registered: 3-2003 |
April 2005 - John Choi appears at BOT meeting to state he has a 30 year lease with New Market. This is to satisfy residents that a market will be built and operated for 30 years. Also to allay concerns of residents that market, which was reason for allowing residential units to be built on Vose and piloted, will continue to operate and not become something else in a couple of years. April 2006 - Residents told when Sterling took over from Skollar, they began looking for another operator. So what happened with 30 year lease Choi had? My guess - he backed out because of the delay. Not his fault - he needed the cash flow. April 2006 - Residents told residential had always been primary focus. This will cost the SO taxpayers. The Village has a $1 million mortgage which is to be repaid as lofts over market are sold. In the meantime, the Village is paying interest on the bond it issued to acquire the Shorite site. | ||
| Tracey Randinelli Citizen Username: Traceyr Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2005 |
See my blog (www.nj.com/weblogs/southorange) re: more info on John Choi as supermarket operator. When he contacted me back in December 2004, he told me that he had recently signed a lease. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that makes him 100% definitely the supermarket operator--at least, at one point in time. | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 597 Registered: 6-2005 |
Matthews said that the Village has final say over who the supermarket operator will be. I am curious as to how they will make THAT decision. And what about Sterling? Do they know about supermarkets, and operators and such, if they are a residential developer? Matthews also said that the developer only has to have a supermarket "initially". Doesn't sound like a long term commitment to me. I am also curious as to who the owner of the supermarket will be. The residential units will be sold off, but what of the commercial units? Will Sterling be the owner of them. And as owner, can't they do what they want with them after the initial period (whatever that may be) ends? The village may have a say in who the operator of the market will be, but what of the term? I have thought for a while that the whole idea of a market in that location should be scrapped. Let a new vision (not a hallucination which we have now) be crafted for the commerical areas of town. If a market fits a grand plan, then fine. If not, then let's deal with what we have. Most of us have adapted anyway. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 390 Registered: 1-2006 |
Depends upon what is in the lease, e.g., broom clean by, all rights of vehicular access free and clear of incumbrances, transfer of property no later than... He may have a lawsuit against town for lost business!!! jd | ||
| Duck Duck Goose Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 395 Registered: 6-2005 |
I think the lease agreement stated a start date, and as we should now know that date is still coming soon, unlike the promised date on the lease agreement. There are so many legal screw-ups that this whole charade must end now. In all that is good, the BoT must put an end to this mockery of incompetencies.... | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1707 Registered: 3-2003 |
Tracey - There is no question that John Choi had signed a lease. I remember your blog, and you spoke very highly of him. I was quite impressed with him when he appeared at the BOT meetings. The point is that, although he may have signed a 30 year lease at one point in time, it appears that he is no longer in the picture based on what was said last night. My point is that it's not his fault - he said himself he was ready to go, but then was told he should hold off until the parking deck was built. My guess is that he just couldn't wait any longer, with all the delays. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1708 Registered: 3-2003 |
WHERE ARE THE TRUSTEES! To the new trustees - you made a big point saying you were "independent" during the election. It's time for you to demonstrate your so-called independance. Ask what the status is with the market operator at the next BOT meeting. And don't let Matthews tell you it's confidential and can't be discussed. You said your role was to make sure the market moves along. Show us you meant what you said. | ||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 205 Registered: 5-2005 |
Spitz - I agree with you. The following is part of a post I put up on the "How I feel about South Orange thread" ... I believed, as I am sure the majority of people living here did, in the "Coming soon" syndrome that S.O seems to suffer from. I believed in the quality of life I was ensured, I believed in the wonderful environment we would be providing for our children.... I still believe this is possible, but I also believe that is going to be a long and hard proccess to pull us back up from the trough we are in now, and that requires the right people. Some may be right for us that are on the current BOT, but it is blatently obvious that others are very wrong. Trustees if you read this and take is personally, then good. I hope you do. Prove me wrong. PROVE TO US THAT WE ARE NOT A PERPETUAL "COMING SOON" TOWN. PROVE TO US THAT OUR FAITH IN yOU IS WELL FOUNDED. PROVE TO US THAT YOUR "INTERESTS" ARE FOR THE GOOD OF THE TOWN AND NOT JUST YOUR OWN. Can you prove that? Can you stand up, each one of you hand on heart and say that you are doing the best possible for South Orange? Spitz - as I am sure you can imagine, of course I have had no response. Nothing has been posted, and we know at least two trustees read MOL..... I suppose the response is "Coming soon" too.. Oh well.... have to wait for that too I suppose..  | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3928 Registered: 5-2001 |
jayjay - As a point of clarity on your post at 12:52pm...the issue with the current Shop Rite "shell" is that it is too CLOSE to the Railroad tracks by current regulations. So, if the shell were taken down, the new store built would have to be further from the tracks & therefore smaller. (I do not believe height was the issue) Let me see if I can reconstruct the timeline June 2004: It appears that Stirling Homes first came into the picture. (http://www.southorange.org/minutes/2004/6-14-04CA.htm) December 2004: John Choi signs 30 year lease (with who???) April 2006: We are told that the Operator of the supermarket is now an unknown When did this happen? Last night we were told it was when Stirling came into the picture, but that was back in 2004 before the lease was signed! | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1709 Registered: 3-2003 |
MHD - I think originally, Sterling took over the Vose Ave. project and Skollar was left with the market site. It wasn't until later that Sterling took over everything from Skollar. This split of the original deal was explained by Allan Rosen at a BOT meeting. | ||
| Lucy Smith Citizen Username: Lucy123 Post Number: 121 Registered: 6-2005 |
Three words-"Help me Howard" or four words- "7 on your side" or any other of those news things | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3929 Registered: 5-2001 |
Lucy, I prefer "Book 'em Danno".   | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1710 Registered: 3-2003 |
"I can fool enough of the people enough of the time." Bill Calabrese | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2919 Registered: 5-2004 |
Lucy, I think any of those investigative teams would get confused and tired quickly, or would get snowed by Calabrese and Gross. | ||
| Lucy Smith Citizen Username: Lucy123 Post Number: 122 Registered: 6-2005 |
what a shame...it could turn into a great investigative report series for the station that chooses to do it...anyone in SO/M have any contacts at the news stations might want to give them a heads up! it's exhausting just thinking about it all....every morning i walk to the train past the Vose pit and every once in awhile our favorite pharmacist is mailing a letter at the same time and i find the sight of him walking to the mailbox with the Vose pit in the background a very ironic picture. happened just this morning and all i can do is shake my head.... |
