| Author | Message | ||
     Smarty Pants Citizen Username: Smartypants Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2006 |
Btw, I've heard that the businesses that are "100% against" the SID were under the impression that the Trustees were passing a SID so that it could allow the Village to take their properties!! They turned out at the Trustee meeting to show they were against that! And why wouldn't they? Of course, no such action was planned or would happen with the passing of a SID, but, heck, why tell them the truth, they may have stayed home? I wonder where they could've gotten that misinformation!! Ah, the tactics...misinform the business owners, get them all upset because the Village is gonna take their businesses away by passing a SID. Hurry, South Orange business owners!!! Go to the Trustee meeting in droves to protest this horrible (heh, heh, false) act before it happens!!! I guess passing a SID wasn't enough to turn them out. | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 613 Registered: 6-2005 |
Smarty Pants- Can you enlighten us as to how you drew the conclusion you did? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9288 Registered: 4-1997  |
My invitations:
If business owners received different communications I'd be interested in knowing more. | ||
| Mustafa Laughfa Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 405 Registered: 6-2005  |
eYou are a real smarty pants..... I don't know how you think to post such a blatant lie. Do you work in Village Hall? If not, perhaps you may assess the relevancy of this joke: Chocolate Ice Cream A man walked into an ice cream shop... Man: I'd like some chocolate ice cream. Scooper: I'm sorry sir, but we're out of chocolate. Would you like something else? Man: Yes, I'd like some chocolate ice cream. Scooper: I'm sorry, but we don't have that. Would you like to try a different flavor? Man: Um... yes. I'd like some chocolate ice cream. Scooper: We don't have that. How about a different kind of ice cream? Man: I'll have some chocolate ice cream. Scooper: Look, Mister, can you spell the “van” in vanilla? Man: V-A-N. Scooper: Can you spell the “straw” in strawberry? Man: S-T-R-A-W. Scooper: Can you spell the “schmuck” in chocolate? Man: But there is no “schmuck” in chocolate! Scooper: That's what I've been trying to tell you! There is no sid in chocolate either.... so much for the change in demographics! | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 337 Registered: 2-2006 |
Smarty Pants, Elaine Harris already explained that more business owners would have attended and wanted to attend the meeting last night if sufficient notice of the meeting had been given. The date was switched at the last minute and not everyone could make it. I am skeptical of your claims. But I do think it is not beyond the realm of possibility that a group of people will try to drive downtown business out of business/town so that they can acquire the properties they leave behind at a fraction of the cost. It sounds crazy, but I think the people who have created the development pits downtown with no end in sight are growing more and more desperate as more and more people realize what they have done. And desperate people do crazy things. If they have bad judgement to begin with, desperation will only exacerbate it. So I think things are going to get much worse before they get better in downtown South Orange. | ||
| Spanish Inquisitor Citizen Username: Sinq Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2004  |
Dave, You're not a chamber member, according to their directory. How are you receiving their invitations? | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 165 Registered: 12-2004 |
Back in July, Sheena (borrowing from some canned information that was given to her by village personnel containing hype for SIDS) copied into the MOL thread, among other things, a list of "benefits" relating to SIDS. This was done even though, by her own admission, she had not read the proposed ordinance or the statute. The seven "benefits" that she listed are all typical of the puffery that accompanies every sales promotion. If one looks closely, there is nothing substantive, nothing concrete. I will refer to them here: 1. "Provide a stable funding source for downtown management" Translation: provide a job for a crony, with some money left over for an assistant to the crony. Job will include pensions, health benefits, cell phones, maybe even a car, or two. Note: the funding is for the "management," not for the businesses. 2. "Be eligible for grants and loans only available to SIDS" Translation: loans are another means of incurring debt which we don't want. Grants? There is no such thing as a free lunch. All grants have some financial obligation built into them, or strings attached. Prove it. Give me an example of a grant that we can get no other way except with a SID. 3. "Offer supplemental services to the business district" Translation: So far, no one, including Sheena, has defined what is meant by a "supplemental service." Why do we need a SID for that? We can be like Costco and buy direct. 4. "Provide consistent representation to the municipality on behalf of the business community." Translation: Ignore the business owners and go straight to their wallets. Not even one of the 18 members of the proposed SID board would be selected by the business community. You call this "representation"? Nothing in life or government is "consistent." Why is "consistency" a virtue that I need to pay for? and not get. 5. "Enhance the visibility of the businesses located with the district" Translation: Erect giant lampposts with high intensity lamps? Not one concrete example of any way a SID will increase the visibility of any business, but shouldn't this be something that the businesses should WANT? Can you provide an example? 6. "Maintain the overall quality of life" Translation: give more perks and bonuses and a well paid job to an insider(s). Nothing concrete here, either. How is my life improved by handing over $1,600 per year to strangers? I would rather give it to my children, if I may. Please? 7. "Preserve and improve property values" Translation: Not true. Property values can be devalued by SIDS as it is a sign of a depressed area. Property values are also diminished by increased taxes. It affects rents. Pass throughs affect the rents charged. Property values of private owners should not be the business of the government. How has the failed redevelopment to date improved my property values? My point is, of course, that we are being sold down the river. There is nothing that we want, or need, or have asked for. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 689 Registered: 4-2005  |
Elaine, I'm not appreciating your very unprofessional comments "Back in July, Sheena (borrowing from some canned information that was given to her by village personnel containing hype for SIDS) copied into the MOL thread" Sometimes, you need to agree to disagree respectfully. I have always done that with you and actually, on most part, we agree on the majority of things. I might add, not everyone who disagrees with you is village hall personnel or a lackey for the BOT or someone in village government who is posting under a fake name, etc. And for clarification purposes - I read ALL of the material relating to past discussions with SIDS - my admission was that I have not read THIS CURRENT ORDINANCE YET because I'm trying to work on finals.... So I'm respectfully asking you and practically begging you NOT to do that to me in the future. If anything, I'm probably one of the most independent thinkers. I refuse to let people in village government, people on MOL or community members intimidate me or put words in my mouth when I disagree with certain issues. I don't think it's beneficial to anyone or anything. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 338 Registered: 2-2006 |
Mustafa, Smarty Pants is not the only one in this discussion who thinks if s/he keeps repeating the same thing ad nauseum, it will make it true. Guess that's how they have successfully deceived people in the past into voting for the malevalent influences in town. | ||
| JoRo Citizen Username: Autojoe51 Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2005 |
Does anyone know how Millburn, Maplewood and other choose their SID boards? What I heard outlined last night sounded egregiously unfair. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2939 Registered: 5-2004  |
Um, Elaine, was there a SID ordinance for her to have read when she posted that "back in July"? Didn't think so... You don't have to make an enemy out of anyone and everyone who has a different opinion than you. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 166 Registered: 12-2004 |
This is serious business and we are taking it seriously. We are facing a very steep tax and we are offended by the cavalier attitude displayed here. You are totally out of line, Sheena, to call my comments unprofessional. Those points were taken directly out of your post, and as per your own challenge above, they were addressed. If you wish to debate them, go ahead, but you did not take the high road up above. You attacked me, but you failed to address any of my remarks regarding your list of "7" Benefits of SIDS points. I stand by what I said earlier, your opinion on SIDS is a "net" opinion unsupported by anything substantive. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2940 Registered: 5-2004 |
Who has a cavalier attitude? You have accused people of being shills for the administation when they do not agree with your position. Rather than being a jerk about Sheena's post, perhaps you could have simply explained where you disagree with her conclusions. She's shown herself to be a pretty open and rational person. Unlike many of us here. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3971 Registered: 5-2001  |
OK, kids. Everyone is going into timeout until you learn to play nice together in the sandbox.  | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3972 Registered: 5-2001 |
Does anyone know why this meeting wasn't televised & posted on the website, like the "Forum Discussion on SIDS 09-08-05" was? | ||
| Mustafa Laughfa Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 406 Registered: 6-2005 |
The list of seven benefits is a perversion of our truth... and reality. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 167 Registered: 12-2004 |
Rastro: your rude statement is also unsupported by any evidence. I have explained in detail on this board many times with reasoning all the positions against the proposed SID. Sheena needs to learn that, in life, if you make generalized statements that have an impact on other people there may come a time when you will be challenged and you must be prepared to support your position. She has not yet been able to defend her position on this issue. Your rude statement calling me a "jerk" because I do not accept her net opinion sets a very bad example and is not a standard of behavior that deserves respect. You call her rational, yet I am not? I do not think that this public thinks that I am a jerk, even though not everyone will agree with me, nor do I expect that. Your habit of namecalling is simply low class and transparent. What is your stake in the outcome? | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3836 Registered: 5-2001  |
Note to self: A) Find out where Joel Dranove bought that toupee, and 2) send a conciliatory-sounding email to The Oracle... apologize for making fun of his ratty-looking wigs all those times, and advocate Joel's (or at least the worst possible mail order) wig shop as the source for The Oracle's next rug. Offer to cover the cost as peace offering. Then C) hire Boca sleaze-photog Ace Fugazy to snap lurid color pix of The Oracle prancing around in his pool in his new hair. Finally, 4) get pix inserted in Boca PennySaver and posted here on MOL... Final note: If it's no wig, quickly apologize to Mr. Dranove to avoid banning and litigation (Boca will still have a good laugh at Oracle's expense). Heh-heh... -s. | ||
| michael brant Citizen Username: Mbrant Post Number: 221 Registered: 10-2005 |
Here for what it is worth is my take on this. A SID would work but not spearheaded by Jennings, Calabrese and certainty not Rosen. Three incompetents. DMR would work but not if spearheaded by anyone in this towns govt. Sheen is totally out of her league and really should remain silent. As Elaine has pointed out this is a very serious situation and not something someone of Sheenas ability should be pressing in on. Elaine Harris believes she is doing what is best for the COC and the businesses that it represents and that is her job. What is needed here is one thing plain and simple. If the residents of this town want this towns retail community to thrive which would result in new quality businesses making South Orange their home then the residents of South Orange including Jennings must shop in the town. We have wonderful stores and restaurants. Sheena. If you want to do something positive for the town and I do believe your heart is in the right place. Spread the word around Seton Hall that the thousands of students should make it their business to shop in a store in town once before school is out. Seton Hall has thousands of students and it always amazes me that other than a few in starbucks students are nowhere to be found. | ||
| Two Senses Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 442 Registered: 7-2004 |
E.Harris, do you believe that government (assuming for a moment that we had competent, honest, selfless public servants leading us) can play any role whatsoever in revitalizing our downtown? Or, do you believe, as do Libertarians, that individuals in society should be allowed to organize themselves rather than organization be imposed by governmental authority, because imposed organization implies use of force, and should be minimalized whenever possible? One gets the sense from your MOL posts and public comments that, like de Tocqueville, you consider any compromise of your individual rights by political actions to be "tyranny by the majority". And, that for you this has never been about the merits of redevelopment or a SID, per se, but about a deep-rooted distrust of government and distaste for its intervention in the rights of private property owners. Opposing redevelopment and a SID are fine and respectable positions to take; but, if motivated by a fundamental set of political beliefs, rather than the individual merits of the specific issue, full disclosure may be in order. | ||
| Erin Cartman Citizen Username: Carnac Post Number: 53 Registered: 5-2005  |
Full disclosure from Elaine? That was a joke right? I was suppose to laugh....right?  | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2942 Registered: 5-2004 |
Elaine, I have no stake in the outcome, other than as a resident. As to my "habit of name-calling," please explain this. Beyond my implication that you are being a jerk to Sheena, that is. Sheena explained that her comments were from before the SID ordinance came out, yet you implied that she she should have read it before making those comments. That, in my mind, makes you a jerk. Not the fact that you disagree with her. It was not possible for her to have read the ordinance first, and you knew that. Yet you still made the implication. I personally have no specific opinion on a SID, other than it should not be forced on an unwilling and already stressed business district without specific and explicit goals and tactics for achieving those goals. See? In essence, I agree with you. But make your point with specific arguments, not attacks. Leave that tactic for the opposition. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 339 Registered: 2-2006 |
Two Senses, you would hardly be a libertarian if you believed the present government has a responsibility to clear up the development pits downtown. It is pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that a SID would take direct responsibility from the elected officials, interpose several layers of large cumbersome volunteer committee members and pile taxes upon taxes on businesses in the proposed SID, while the development pits remain. Several businesses in the Chamber, and I believe Ms. Harris herself, may have indicated a willingness to reconsider a BID/SID at the right time with the right leadership, if still needed, AFTER the arrested development projects are completed or are within sight of being completed. It is not now and the present BOT is not the right set of people to undertake a BID/SID. And whoever pointed out that having a SID downtown is a sign of an economically depressed area and that this might affect residential property values is absolutely correct. Because the present government has wrecked such havoc on downtown South Orange through incompetent development schemes and speculations, why in the world would anyone in their right mind want them to play around with another major initiative they clearly know so little about, one which has borrowing powers in excess of the town's annual operating budget and which the town administration has already thought about using to send the town further into debt? Who really wants to grant the present leadership the power to borrow more than an ADDITIONAL 30 million? This is a coward's way of getting around the State of New Jersey's statutorily restricted limit on how much municipalities can borrow, one of the few rules of discipline the current leadership is under. The people who gave us bomb-cratered Bhagdad for downtown South Orange now realize that their injury is becoming too obvious and too expensive to hide any longer and they are desperately seeking exponentially larger sources of borrowed money to keep up false appearances. The SID would provide it to them in many ways, not least of which is enormous debt the town would be plunged into. When are the residents of South Orange going to stop them? | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 3554 Registered: 11-2001  |
Excellent post, SOrising. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 341 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thank you, Pizzaz. I can't believe what you've been put through. | ||
| Smarty Pants Citizen Username: Smartypants Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2006 |
SOrising: "And whoever pointed out that having a SID downtown is a sign of an economically depressed area and that this might affect residential property values is absolutely correct." LOL...Yeah, that's a real accurate point!!! Let's ask other SIDs (and, btw, it's not Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, it's Special Improvement District...can we please at least identify it correctly??) have shown the sign of economically depressed areas via SID enactment: Montclair, Maplewood (two SIDs), Red Bank, Westfield, Ocean City, Atlantic City, 34th Street (NYC), Bryant Park (NYC), oh hell, I could go on forever. But, what's best for the rest of the world doesn't seem to work well in S.Orange. | ||
| Stirling Silver, AG Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 407 Registered: 6-2005 |
You got it, the circumstances have not been obliterated by the governing body as with South Orange in the examples you give. Tell us, would piloted properties be incorporated - including Beifus and Choi-less Chow? Why not, smartypants? | ||
| Smarty Pants Citizen Username: Smartypants Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2006 |
PILOTed properties could indeed be included. Their PILOT agreements don't make them un-assessable. Likewise, although it's rarely (if ever) done, with tax-exempt properties. They are also not automatically exempt from paying a SID assessment. It's just usually not "politically correct" to SID-assess residential or tax-exempt, though no law prohibits it. In fact, many argue they should be assessed for the same basic reason the commercial properties are assessed...the work done by the management corporation directly benefits the properties within the designated area, residential, office, non-profit, commercial alike. | ||
| Stirling Silver, AG Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 408 Registered: 6-2005 |
You have clearly identified yourself as a political hack ... thank you. No law prohibits placing a Sid over a Redevelopment Zone either, "it's just usually not politically correct" or contemplated to ever occur in the fashion proposed by our governing body. The work done by your envisioned management corporation will have no impact at all upon the viability of the downtown as it is today. Those issues need to be reserved for a DRMC. The gang of three, the bullwinkles of town government, have had their chance, they need a sideshow exit, ASAP. BTW: Wossamatta U. | ||
| Smarty Pants Citizen Username: Smartypants Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2006 |
Stirling, Please don't confuse the issues. The gang of three you refer to clearly screwed up their work on the redevelopment projects, none of which have anything to do with a SID or, necessarily, a DRMC. And, what makes you think that this body of Trustees would entrust the Redevelopment to a DRMC without them controlling who comprises that body? The Village missed the boat YEARS ago by not hiring a Redevelopment Attorney or at least a redevelopment consultant to handle all of these projects for the Village. Instead, they allowed their administration to undertake huge redevelopment projects without the proper expertise, experience or background. BTW: Nuttinsamatta w me, Wossamatta u? | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 343 Registered: 2-2006 |
What does "SID"" mean? A Special Improvement District. Why is it special and why does it need improving? BIDs and SIDs arose as a way to bolster depressed urban areas that were unable to improve themselves without the special authorities (such as the ability to levy special assessments) that these kinds of districts were granted under BID/SID legislation. Smarty pants, your copycat knowledge and pedestrian imagination of what SIDs and BIDs really are confirms what Stirling Silver just recognized: the superficial information of a hack. And one who wants to pump over 30 million of borrowed money South Orange residents would have to repay with interest into a cover up for the mess the current gang of three, four or more have created in arrested development pits downtown. If the people who brought us the downtown craters of Beifus and company knew what they were doing, they wouldn't need access to piles of money to cover up their mistakes. I for one have no intention of granting them access to that money. | ||
| Stirling Silver, AG Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 409 Registered: 6-2005 |
I'm sorry but the town did hire a redevelopment attorney, a former trustee, a man inflicted with health issues and without insurance (a resignee for health benefits), a man the village attorney blames today, the brother of the current parking authority director and the brother-in-law to a unqualified code enforcement clerk. What did we get with this foresight - the Shop Rite catastrophe, the Beifus indecisions and Gaslight Commons. I still think it's the ugliest multi dwelling living unit in town. Do you disagree? BTW: seethatsamatta with the village - patronage wassuzi.... The formation of the DRMC requires we rethink the way we govern ourselves. Maplewood is our closest neighbor. We need to forge our future as we have our past with her. | ||
| Smarty Pants Citizen Username: Smartypants Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2006 |
Thanks, Stirling, you made my point. Mr. Hartwyk had no redevelopment experience and, worse, pretended he did. I agree with you, wholeheartedly!!! South Maplewood? Mapleorange? Orangewood? Hmmmm.... | ||
| Agrackle Citizen Username: Agrackle Post Number: 45 Registered: 2-2004 |
All the literature I can seem to find about BIDs, SIDs, etc. states that these programs are initiated by the business and property owners themselves in a collective effort to improve the economic climate within their district. It is NOT thrust upon them by their local government. Strike one. In our case, the BoT has taken this initiative a step further by insisting that they alone elect the members to the SID's board (imagine Beifus or Saiyd on the board). Strike two. Further, most SID ordinances require that a majority of the business/property owners within the district approve the formation of the SID. From what I can tell, the business community hasn't even been formally approached by the BoT about this initiative. Strike three. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 344 Registered: 2-2006 |
They're out, Agrackle. Let's make sure of it. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 415 Registered: 1-2006 |
Tell the board to its face, live, on cable. To their faces, or they don't hear it. jd | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1731 Registered: 3-2003 |
In the link to New Bruswick's SID, it says that "at least 51% of the owners in the district must approve the added tax before the district is established." Is this state law and therefore applicable, even though not specifically mentioned in the proposed ordinance? | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 169 Registered: 12-2004 |
The questions posed by Two Sense up above and the essays by SORising are very interesting and intellectual. I must say, it is about time this discussion became provocative. I intend to answer Two Sense, but not tonight. Sorry, but it has been a long day and your question requires a complex response. As you may know, the Trustees propose "donating" $150,000 to fund the SID. They want the SID to "raise" another $150,000. What can we do with $300,000? We spent over a year on this study and the answer is: hire two people and give them benefits. There is not much left over to do more. That translates to: They need much more money than $300,000. Bear in mind, "raising $150,000" is just a carrot. Once the SID is enacted, each property will be subject to paying up to 10% of its current property taxes. For one business owner who attended the meeting, that amounts to $5,000 per year. This is big money for small business. I say, the BoT should give $150,000 additional money to Main Street and let them continue with whatever they are doing. Apparently Main Street needs more funding. Their objectives are virtually the same as those enumerated in the proposed SID. By giving the money directly to Main Street which is already in existence, the village will get more "bang for its buck." I hate that expression, but it makes the point. Unlike other towns that have a SID, our mixture is very different. The list of properties in the proposed SID include a large number of SID exempt properties, such as Village owned properties (former Gulf Station), residences (all along Valley Street), non-profits (Community Health Law Project), and houses of worship (Baptist Church). Basically, the commercial properties in between are going to support the exempt properties, assuming anyone can give an example of even one service that will be offered. In the other towns that were mentioned above as having a SID, the blend of property types is totally different from ours, i.e. substantially commercial only. We are too much of a mixed bag. For example, they are trying to join buildings on Valley Street that are isolated from other commercial buildings with buildings in a completely different mix, i.e. Sloan Street. The concept is too ambitious and too incongruous to work. SID must be a grass roots movement because the merchants are a major participatory part of the program. Here, the business community is not even invited to participate, except with their wallets. SID in South Orange is not in any way comparable to those other places mentioned above because the fundamental reason for it is grounded on the current financial stress of the government, and not on the best interests of the stakeholders. | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 581 Registered: 1-2004  |
The "News" displayed below is from the South Orange WEB site: - As described, is this what we witnessed? - Where were the other members of the Board? - Would this be considered an "Official Meeting" since there was not a quorum? ___________________________________________________________________________ South Orange News April 18, 2006 Two Public Meetings for SID Ordinance Scheduled The Township of South Orange Village has scheduled two special Planning &Zoning Committee meetings at which residents, business owners and other stakeholders will have the opportunity to provide their input regarding the creation of a Special Improvement District (SID). The first meeting is scheduled for Monday, April 24th at 6:45 pm in Village Hall, and the second meeting is scheduled for Wednesday, May 17th at 7:00 pm in Village Hall. We hope that all interested parties will attend. ____________________________________________________________________ | ||
| Agrackle Citizen Username: Agrackle Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2004 |
I just got around to actually reading the SID ordinance and it is now painfully clear to me how and why our town gets abused/fleeced by counsel for developers like Beifus, Saiyd, Sterling...no one pays attention to the basics. I'm not a lawyer, but man, it's amateur hour at the Apollo. Terms used aren't defined, defined terms aren't consistently applied, the section about "Term" discusses how the board is elected, the section about "Election of Directors" says little about how the board is elected, how an SHU director is elected is mentioned in the section about terms, but that's the first time an SHU director is ever mentioned (one would think it would be described in the section about how the board is comprised), but....it's very clear who retains all the control! I've pulled several other SID ordinances from NJ towns (Summit, Montclair, New Providence, among others) and only one that I've seen gives the local government control over electing ALL the board members. Most leave the control in the hands of the SID board. Not only that, but most also describe (though not necessarily in the ordinance itself) the time consuming process that was followed before the collective decision was made to create a SID/BID. In addition, ALL of these towns describe how it was a decision that was based on the support and input from local businesses that would be assessed. Why can't we just follow a reasonable, objective, well thought-out process for making these decisions? It's unreal! |
