| Author | Message | ||
     MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3989 Registered: 5-2001  |
Agrackle, I bet there were many performers at the Apollo that could do significantly better (and cheaper) legal work. I think this would be a better TV analogy:   | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 426 Registered: 1-2006 |
Agrackle: Please tell it to the board, live, in person, and ask for Calabrese's response. jd | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 172 Registered: 12-2004 |
Whoever you are, Agrackle, thank you. Allow me to add one more thought: This is nothing more than a ploy to BOND MORE MONEY. When they use the term "funding mechanism" they use it improperly. When a SID is done properly, the merchants ask for it, and the government becomes the "funding mechanism." For example, assume there are 20 businesses, 10 on one side of a street and 10 on the other side, and they all want a SID. Fine, so they ask the government to assess all the properties so they can all guarantee that no one will back out and ruin the process. Say one dies and a new business comes into town and doesn't want the SID. Too late, the new business has to go along because of the "funding mechanism." In that scenario, it works. In our case, the government is USING US TO BE THEIR "FUNDING MECHANISM." In other words, the merchants don't want it, but they are imposing it on us and they will collect our money and they will use it for THEIR OWN CASH FLOW PURPOSES, and TO BOND, i.e. TO BORROW MORE MONEY to cover their ever growing debt service. And...it goes without saying, they sure don't want us making any decisions. Essentially, that is what is going on here. | ||
| Josh Holtz Citizen Username: Jholtz Post Number: 420 Registered: 4-2004 |
Let's face it - the Township of South Orange Village is broke - out of moolah. They are taking whatever measures possible to make money appear. I have seen this happen with mass retailers - and every one of them declared bankruptcy at some point. It is sad that it has come to this juncture. | ||
| JoRo Citizen Username: Autojoe51 Post Number: 108 Registered: 10-2005 |
agrackle, thanks for pulling those ordinances. what happens elsewhere makes way more sense than what i'm seeing in this ordinance. looks like we're creating another organ o' village government. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1738 Registered: 3-2003 |
Agrackle- Thank you for your post. I've been trying to make some kind of objective decision about a SID, and there is something in the Summit SID website which is interesting, and which confirms some of the concerns raised about who chooses the trustees of the SID. In one of its newsletters , the Summit Downtown organization does mention the problem it was beginning to experience with skyrocketing SID assessments. "With the cooperation of the Mayor and Common Council, about four years ago the SDI changed he way its trustess were selected from an appointed system to one where the SDI trustees are elected by people paying the tax." http://www.summitdowntown.org/images/April%202006.pdf | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 582 Registered: 1-2004  |
It seems somewhat unfair that one of the greatest beneficiaries of the SID would be the new Movie complex but I would assume would not have any SID tax burden. | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 584 Registered: 1-2004 |
Additionally, I am also curious if the Landloard (Cary Heller/LokkoMotive) of the stores under the Train Station will be required to pay the SID tax since it is leased from a Tax Exempt organization - NJTransit? | ||
| michael brant Citizen Username: Mbrant Post Number: 223 Registered: 10-2005 |
Does anyone think that the movie theater will increase business enough for the local businesses to pay for the SID? How much more ice cream will coldstone sell from the hundreds of people that will be showing up...or pizza at bunny's or food at the new diner etc? This could really end up helping all these types of businesses in town. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 173 Registered: 12-2004 |
While business "may" improve, maybe it wont. "These types of businesses" (I assume you mean food businesses) are not the only ones paying the anticipated assessment. For the sake of argument, how will the "other" businesses benefit? In fact, as Howard Levison said before you, Cold Stone and the other businesses under the train are probably exempt because New Jersey Transit is tax exempt. So, they won't even be assessed like the rest of the businesses. Once again, the main UNANSWERED question to date, what will the SID do for the businesses? So far, no one has offered an answer. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 174 Registered: 12-2004 |
and to Howard, how do you "assume" that the movie theatre will benefit from a SID? What could the SID possibly do for the movie theatre? | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 588 Registered: 1-2004 |
I am not in agreement with the SID but wanted to point out the inconsistencies. J. Provide security, sanitation, and other services to the district supplemental to those provided normally by the municipal government. K. Undertake improvements designed to increase the safety or attractiveness of the district to businesses which may wish to locate there or to visitors to the district, including but not limited to, litter cleanup and control, landscaping, parking areas and facilities, recreational and rest areas and facilities, and those improvements generally permitted for pedestrian malls ...... | ||
| michael brant Citizen Username: Mbrant Post Number: 227 Registered: 10-2005 |
I think it is safe to say that if the conditions of the downtown are improved to the level howard levison is describing I think so will business. People enjoy shopping and eating in a nice environment. Elaine as far as how would other businesses other than restaurants benefit from SOPAC. Hundreds of people come to town several times on a Saturday to see a movie. Walk through town and see a frame shop...a ladies clothing store...art gallery...gift store, candle shop etc. Increased pedestrian traffic=increased business for all. Or should I say for all who get it and will find a way to maximize the increased flow of consumer traffic. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4003 Registered: 5-2001 |
I don't think anyone disputes this, but how does giving a full-time salaried position to Mary Theroux (which is all a SID will do) increase pedestrian traffic & therefore increase business for all? If we really want to increase business, why don't/can't we create an "Urban Enterprise Zone" which has 3% Sales Tax. THAT can certainly increase pedestrian traffic and therefore increase business for all, right?? | ||
| Smarty Pants Citizen Username: Smartypants Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2006 |
MHD: Uh...because a UEZ requires a lower income level for the population. We South Orange-ites make too much damn money!!! And where'd you get that Mary Theroux would be given a position if the SID is formed??? Weird of you. And, Elaine, been meaning to ask, but haven't been around...why is it okay with you that the Village use the general tax fund to give to Main Street? Why is it okay with you to have the whole town pay for supplemental services for the businesses? And could you please scan in the survey I'm sure you must've done that shows 100% of the businesses you claim to speak for are against the SID? Oh, yeah, and the props under the train station are not exempt as you claim. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4004 Registered: 5-2001 |
Smarty, Actually, income level isn't the determining factor. http://www.state.nj.us/commerce/pdf/uez_agenda/2006-01_tax_faq.pdf 7. How does the authority designate Urban Enterprise Zones-impacted business districts? Answer- A municipality must demonstrate to the Authority that its business district is economically distressed and is being negatively impacted by the presence of two or more adjacent enterprise zones in which 50% less sales tax is collected. In making its decision of whether to designate a municipality as an Urban Enterprise Zone-impacted business district, the Authority will consider whether the district is located in a municipality which is between two municipalities each of which has an enterprise zone and whether the borders of the two enterprise zones of the adjacent municipalities are contiguous to the border of the applicant municipality. Sure enough, 3 of our "neighbors" (Orange, East Orange and Newark) all have a UEZ which we must "compete" with. | ||
| Roy S. Fathead Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 413 Registered: 6-2005  |
Who says the town needs supplemental services? The business owners if not all, almost all are not in favor. Perhaps some realtor might approve. Do you too wish to force it down an unwilling throat as the town has with everything else for the past 9 years? Are you satisfied that this is the best approach? Do you believe that a group of residents, business owners and stakeholders studied this proposition and recommended with trustee participation that it was not appropriate at this time? Do you not see the need for a DRMC or are you too busy selling real estate and hoping for the overdevelopment of the town - smarty pants? Why is it ok that developers don't share in the cost? So many simple questions, but far more smarty and altruistic answers.....hey, stud. | ||
| Smarty Pants Citizen Username: Smartypants Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2006 |
MHD, Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was population based, not business based...my bad. Fathead, Again....where do you get the info to support that "almost all (business owners) are not in favor"? Sure could use an answer to that oft avoided question. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 175 Registered: 12-2004 |
Smarty Pants, you have a rude tone about your post that is very disrespectful. Your sarcasm is cheap, not funny. But to respond, if it is not ok for residents to pay for supplemental services for businesses, then why is it ok for some businesses to pay for supplemental services that are not for their benefit at all? Why the double standard? Why should the hair salon on Second Street pay for litter clean up for the ice cream store on Sloan Street? Why should an advertising agency on Valley Street far removed from the central business district pay for that "supplemental" service? What are the connecting dots there? How will litter clean up be paid for? Will it be cost effective? Will it result in a cleaner area? I saw a ton of litter in the Times Square area lately and they have a SID. Wouldn't it be more effective to enforce anti-litter laws? And as far as Main Street is concerned, where have you been Smarty Pants? Didn't you know it has been getting money from the general fund since its inception? I suggested that it would be cheaper in the long run to just give them more, and not start another agency with salaries, etc. Why are you so hostile on this subject? What is your connecting dot? | ||
| phd6786 Citizen Username: Phd6786 Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2006  |
Elaine, Why is it that, according to you, anyone who disagrees with your point of view must be a connecting dot in a larger matrix? Do you really think that there are no more independent thinkers in the world? Do you really think that anyone favoring a SID can only be a BOT lackey? Since you are spearheading the opposition to SID, are all the SID objectors on this thread your lackeys, or are they independent thinkers? | ||
| Roy S. Fathead Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 414 Registered: 6-2005 |
She spearheads the chamber which is the voice of the business community. What else needs to be said. The group she represents is against a sid. If you should have a few "independent minded" businesses in favor well toot toot for you. Where are they, please step forward? Identify the need and want in exchange for what, a high priced salaried position? I think Main Street does an admirable drive in the promotions department. BTW: Have you heard, they're scheduling a troupe skit performance at the Gazebo on Friday, May 19 in the evening. Live entertainment, at no cost..... can't beat that, can you? Family entertainment and artistic expression with no guns or fake flowers, hmm... novel idea! | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4005 Registered: 5-2001 |
Gazebo? What's that?  | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1541 Registered: 3-2002 |
Still waiting to hear if there are any verified business owners stepping forward to say that they want this SID (either here or at meetings). Until then, I'm with Elaine. Also, given the way the board is to be chosen (from what I've read), I share MHD's fear that this will be a way to create a paid position for Mary Thereoux or someone else equally connected to the patronage system around here. So far, from what I've heard, something about this plan just doesn't sound right. | ||
| FlyingSpaghettiMonst Citizen Username: Noodlyappendage Post Number: 80 Registered: 11-2005 |
Bur beyond Elaine and Buuny's, has anyone from a verified business stepped forward to say they don't want it? I am just curious. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1546 Registered: 3-2002 |
Not that I've heard, but I've heard NO supporters from the business community. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 176 Registered: 12-2004 |
To Flying Spaghetti Monster: The answer is yes. Many have stepped forward in person and in writing. What type of work do you do for a living? Are you independently wealthy and don't have to work? Do you have a job? Do you get a paycheck? Good. I am happy for you. But being in business, especially in a small village is not easy and not extraordinarily profitable. The people who conduct business here are often struggling and you have no compassion, no understanding of the issue. Just today I was in a store when a woman came in looking for a donation for a fundraiser. The merchant gave a gift certificate. This happens almost every day. When was the last time you gave that freely? And for this, you rejoice in seeing them taxed further? I have no doubt there is a connecting dot, or you are simply misguided beyond all hope. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2998 Registered: 5-2004  |
Do you respect anyone who disagrees with you about anything? | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 177 Registered: 12-2004 |
Rastro: What makes you suggest that I don't? I have always advocated my postitions with reasoning. I have never said anything that would support your statement that I do not respect other people. Quite the contrary. I have immense respect for others. Your statement is totally unsupported by any evidence or truth. You are making a personal attack instead of an intellectual one. Why can't you take the high road and respond to the issues? | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3001 Registered: 5-2004 |
Elaine, are you kidding me? Anyone who disagrees with you is labeled a shill for the administration, or someone with "an agenda". Someone who dares to question you (not even disagreeing, just questioning). read through some of your responses to people in the past few months. I understand this is an important issue to you, but you have consistently shown no respect to anyone who has an opinion that differs from your own. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 178 Registered: 12-2004 |
Rastro: There you go again with another personal attack, and once again, totally unsupported. | ||
| mjh Supporter Username: Mjh Post Number: 489 Registered: 5-2001 |
I vote with Rastro. Sorry, but just reading Elaine's responses is evidence enough. They are very shrill, and question the character of anyone who questions or disagrees with her. And I have no opinion on the pros/cons of a SID........reading it out of interest and wanting to understand the issues involved. I live in Maplewood, not SO. I've lost interest now, so be on your merry way. But Elaine, you are kidding yourself and are wearing very effective blinders if you really believe you've been a fair and upstanding advocate for the businesses in town. | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 179 Registered: 12-2004 |
MJH: I don't want to spar with you or Rastro but the fact remains you are anonymous and I am not. That is a big difference. This is not an election so your "vote" for Rastro is irrelevant. Your use of the word "shrill" is aimed as a personal attack. "Shrill" is a word used pejoritively in a sexist way in the context in which you used it. Typed words can not be "shrill." For whatever reason, you can't argue the issues, nor have you supported your statements, so you try to attack a person. Why you are doing this is not clear and not important. You have lost interest? I have not. I am not going to respond to anymore of your personal attacks. The readers can draw their own conclusions. | ||
| Erin Cartman Citizen Username: Carnac Post Number: 54 Registered: 5-2005  |
If Elaine did a good a job at answering simple questions as she does explaining the word "shrill" then this thread would be a lot shorter.... and friendlier. And as I reader, I drew my own conclusions about three pages ago..... | ||
| mjh Supporter Username: Mjh Post Number: 493 Registered: 5-2001 |
My name is Mary Jo Hoyt, and you are free to PL me if you'd like more information about me personally. I'm not going to argue further or answer your accusations. It's quite obvious you don't get it, and there is no point in going further. As I said, I've lost interest. Mary Jo | ||
| FlyingSpaghettiMonst Citizen Username: Noodlyappendage Post Number: 85 Registered: 11-2005 |
Ms. Harris, all I asked for was a list of businesses who agree with you. Why did that cause you to so viciously attack me? And for this, you rejoice in seeing them taxed further? I have no doubt there is a connecting dot, or you are simply misguided beyond all hope. I never said what my opinion was of the SID? Why do you assume one way or the other? Dealing with you is impossible. You certainly don't know how to make friends and supporters if a simple question can cause such a shrill and violent response.. | ||
| michael brant Citizen Username: Mbrant Post Number: 228 Registered: 10-2005 |
Wow is this out of control. We need something whether it be a SID or a organization run by business owners to take control of the visual appearance of the down town. It is clear that some businesses need help getting their appearance together. To be so closed minded to the potential benefits of a SID is ridiculous. Personally I have seen nothing that Main Street or Chamber has done for local businesses on a REGULAR basis to improve customer flow. SO for the COC to do nothing but complain about the SID is unproductive. And I do know of some businesses that are in favor of someone or something being put in place to help! There is NOTHING now. | ||
| L.L. Looser Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 415 Registered: 6-2005 |
worthy of a repost.... very well articulated and the reason why businesses are against any further levy without the redevelopment quagmires addressed satisfactorily.... this town has been blatantly mismanaged for the past years. The town government is to blame singularly.... address your frustations and shrill remarks with them.
| ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 180 Registered: 12-2004 |
Mary Jo: I admire what you did, by losing your anonymity. Thank you. Please accept my invitation to join me for lunch, my treat, at any restaurant of your choice in South Orange and we will carry on our discussion. You may call me at 973-763-7660. I look forward to meeting you soon. Flying Spaghetti: The "button" you pushed was exactly what you quoted. You asked me to give a list of the persons who agreed with me. For what purpose would you ask? Think about it. I would not give you or anyone else a list of persons who agreed with me or persons who did not agree with me. As a lawyer, I am conditioned to keep confidences. What was troubling about your statement was the subtext: Why do you need to know? How come you did not ask for a list of the persons who did not agree? What would you do with that information if I did give it to you? What if I were the only person with that position? Would it be any less valid? I certainly did not mean to "attack" you so I am offering an explanation as to why I found your statement offensive as well as an attack against me. Enough said, let us both let this drop. | ||
| FlyingSpaghettiMonst Citizen Username: Noodlyappendage Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2005 |
You post and act as if you have the full and total support of the CoC but when asked to give evidence of said support, you attack the questioner. Makes one wonder what your real motive is? Doesn't appear to be winning over undecideds. Any support I might of once had for any activity (ANY) that has the support of Ms. Elaine Harris is now gone. If this is how you treat honest inquiries....... The Chamber of Commerce should be ashamed to have you as it's representative. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4017 Registered: 5-2001 |
Trying to educate myself about a SID, I have come across the following links that may be helpful. I haven't read all the information, yet, but I plan to: http://www.state.nj.us/dca/publications/dcr/sidbro.pdf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_improvement_district http://www.pacpubserver.com/new/news/1-20-99/sid.html http://www.morristown-nj.org/whatis.html And the ordinances for some other towns: http://www.highlandsnj.com/hbp/about/Ordinance0-99-06.html http://www.to.montclair.nj.us/ordinances/SpecialImprovementDistrict.pdf |
