| Author | Message | ||
     Kibbegirl Citizen Username: Kibbegirl Post Number: 558 Registered: 5-2003 |
I'm sure that if these same businesses were fur salons, antiques stores and picture framing shops and the same thing happened, you all would say "those businesses had nothing to do with it...nothing" just as I said. Why blame the business? Can a business owner 100% of the time patrol his clientele? Does the business owner need to probe into a clients background in order to serve them food or cut their hair? Are you so sure that a Blood or Crip has never used our post office or made a purchase from Rite Aid? And if they have, are those businesses liable for providing a service to a person whom they do not know is gang member? Be real! As a business owner, I think you have a right to refuse service to anyone, but if you don't know that the person you've been providing a service to for years is a criminal until something criminal happens, then is the business still to blame? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 872 Registered: 7-2005  |
You're all nuts. It's a shooting. No one is responsible for it but the shooter and the victim (if their actions led it to occur.) | ||
| John Quincy Adams Citizen Username: Randolph_agarn Post Number: 29 Registered: 3-2006  |
Yes Glock 17 that is true. However, certain area can be more inducing to this kind of behavior. The question is this: Does this area add to the problems faced in our community? And if so what can be done about these problems and keep this kind of element out of the town? With Newark very close by and the large crime problem, there is bound to be spill over. I for one do not like the idea of these criminals hanging around in the area. If cameras are needed, so be it. When criminals and gang members frequent the area these types of events follow them. I would not care if any business was shut down that was found to cater to these kinds of criminals. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 873 Registered: 7-2005 |
The business caters to whoever will pay for their services...that is how America works...denying someone service because they you don't like them...is called discrimination | ||
| cfb Citizen Username: Cfb Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2006 |
If the shooting happened in front of the fur salons, antique store and picture framing shops, I don’t think anyone would have said, "those businesses had nothing to do with it...nothing", unless he/she knew that for a fact. To make such a statement implies that they have some information about the shooting. No one’s suggesting that a business owner should patrol his/her clients or probe into their backgrounds before serving them. There are, however, certain precautions that a concerned business owner can take. One of them is not staying open very late at night, and another is not letting thugs congregate in front of your establishment. I am quite sure that the Bloods, Crips, Latin Kings, Skin Heads, KKK as well as other perps, have shopped in town. The bottom line is they go in, get whatever it is they need and leave like every other customer. They don’t congregate in front of the Rite Aid or the post office. As far as I know, there are no laws which prevent business owners from providing legitimate services to thugs or perps. That’s not the issue. Letting them hang out in front of your establishment is the issue. If the shooting had happened in front of the Rite Aid or the post office, most people in town would have probably said, “wow, I didn’t see this coming”. But, since it happened near a place where thugs commonly hang out, (way before the news hit the press) the sentiment was…”wow, I bet this incident is related to the thugs who hang out in front of that shop”. It does not take an expert detective to figure this one out. No one’s accusing the barber shop of murder. If anything, I blame myself, as a resident, for not making a fuss about ordinance enforcements in that area a while ago. It’s unfortunate that someone had to lose his life before taking action. | ||
| cfb Citizen Username: Cfb Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2006 |
Glock17; There's a difference between not liking someone and not catering to someone who creates a safety concern. If a business dicriminates against people they feel will create a safety concern for their clients, there's nothing wrong with that. Discrimination is not always negative...for example, night clubs with metal detectors discriminate against individuals who's carrying any kind of metal. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 874 Registered: 7-2005 |
Yeah the problem with that is that you start labeling people as "safety concerns" oh that guy is wearing a red shirt! He MUST be one of the bloods..lets not serve him....that quickly becomes...sorry we don't serve your kind here and escalates and so on and so on I can understand if someone walked into a store with an AK-47 slung over there shoulder...or strapped with explosives...but how else would one tell who is a danger? | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 797 Registered: 1-2006  |
I think it's okay to discriminate based on BEHAVIOR. Drunks get 86'd from bars all the time. How do I know? I have a friend... J.B. | ||
| Kibbegirl Citizen Username: Kibbegirl Post Number: 559 Registered: 5-2003 |
That's what I meant Jersey Boy, thanks. Businesses can discriminate based on BEHAVIOR. And I ultimately agree with Glock in that the criminal should be blamed for this travesty and no one else. We should all become better citizens inorder to protect our streets from thugs. But what makes a "thug"? Attire? Car? Language? I can pick out half of the CHS population and deem them "thugs" if that were the basis. Unfortunately, we have to SEE something go downn that's illegal and unless your're a cop pinpointing certain areas, none of us law abiding citizens will ever know when the sh*t is about to hit the fan until it hits. I think when we moved to S.O., we all lost our bororough edge a bit. South Orange is pretty safe, but let's not be fooled. You're not completely safe any where. | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 800 Registered: 1-2006 |
Unfortunately, "Thug Life" is a popular style among people with no intention to be thugs. But, young people rebelling have always dressed to buck adults' expectations, then complained about being "judged." How come the cops keep hassling me, just because I'm wearing a shirt that says, "F*ck the Police?" J.B. | ||
| K_soze Citizen Username: K_soze Post Number: 184 Registered: 11-2005  |
Werd! | ||
| C Bataille Citizen Username: Nakaille Post Number: 2615 Registered: 5-2001 |
Article from today's Ledger concerning the state's pending legislation against gangs: http://http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-3/1147416673307 030.xml&coll=1 Get-tough measures target gangs Friday, May 12, 2006 BY LINDA STEIN THE TIMES OF TRENTON In October, a 20-year-old college student was dragged from her car while stopped in traffic in downtown Trenton. "Thugs snatched her jewelry, dragged her to the ground, beat and kicked her," Assembly Majority Leader Bonnie Watson Coleman (D-Mercer) said yesterday. In January, Coleman said, a melee broke out among 40 people outside a high school in Jersey City. Two students were shot and two were beaten. And in February, a man was ar rested and charged with the shooting death of a Willingboro man and with wounding two others. Coleman cited those incidents during a Statehouse news conference in Trenton as she unveiled 17 bills designed to take back New Jersey's streets from gangs. The bills include gun courts for Mercer and Essex counties and hearings to determine whether bail money comes from legitimate sources. Other bills would make it a second-degree crime to recruit a minor to join a gang. Another would bar the disclosure of personal information about grand jury witnesses, except their name, to shield them from intimidation. "Gangs in New Jersey are flourishing, not just in the poor communities but across the rest of the state," Coleman said. "Gangs are large, well-organized and efficient. They are ruthless. We have a gang problem in New Jersey, and it's only growing larger. It's time we did something about it." Coleman said a 2004 State Police report showed 17 percent of homicides were gang-related and 39 percent of gang activity oc curred in the suburbs. Some 28 gangs had more than 100 members each, and there has been a 44 percent increase in gang activity since 2001. The Bloods, Crips and Latin Kings are the most violent and also the most aggressive recruiters of new members, she said. Gang membership for children younger than 15 quadrupled between 2001 and 2004, she said. Coleman said the bills will help prevent gang violence, protect children and witnesses from gangs and empower police and communities to fight gangs. Some of the legislation targets prevention with anti-gang programs in the schools, she said. Another would offer youths employment and after-school programs. Others would increase the penalties for possession of an assault weapon and for transferring a firearm to a minor and for possession of a "community gun," a weapon passed around for use in a crime. Those offenses would now carry a 10-year prison sentence and a $150,000 fine, she said. Another bill would regulate the sale of ammunition, and one would require the forfeiture of a vehicle if an illegal weapon were found inside. "You can't have a drive-by (shooting) if you don't have anything to drive," Coleman said. "At this point, we're not endorsing any specific bills," said David Wald, a spokesman for state Attorney General Zulima V. Farber. "We did have input on them. We share the assemblywoman's commitment to having the strongest possible laws to fight gangs and violence." I have to disagree that if you don't have a car you can't do a driveby. Obviously gang members often simply steal a car for their purposes. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1327 Registered: 10-2004  |
cfb - I cant see where this has anything to do with a barber shop. The incident occured at 4:30. In the afternoon. Broad Daylight. Rush hour. Sun was shining. It has nothing to do with the barber shops hours of operations. If they have clientelle that wants a trim at 11:00 PM before the big party on Friday night who are you to say that they cant make a buck? I dont know the town ordinance as to what time the stores are required to close but if they are obeying this ordinance then what other possible complaint can you have? bettyd - I sincerly hope that the occurance of violence in our town was totally random and that in the hunting of the victim, the barbers or pizza shop owners or anyone local was involved. If they were then they should be prosecuted as accomplices, however I think that possibility is far fetched. Glock is right. | ||
| Tuxedo Citizen Username: Tuxedo Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2004 |
The Township needs to hire more police officers, period. There are so many problems in the village that could be resolved if we had more officers, period. "But there's no monney." Suggestion: Hire a top notch fundraiser for the town and get some community improvement grants to hire a half dozern more patrolmen, | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3088 Registered: 5-2004  |
How do we pay for them next year? I'm all for more police, if necessary. But gimmicky funding mechanisms are no way to hire staff. | ||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 317 Registered: 5-2005 |
Fund raisers should be for something like Tau. Police officers and all essential services should be part of what we are paying taxes for. If our taxes go up, let it be for the right reasons.. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11485 Registered: 5-2001 |
The only way the police would have prevented the murder last weekend would have been if one of the cruisers stopped to pick up a slice and a coke. Cameras on the block might have prevented the shooting at that time and place if the shooter, who appears to have been at least a semi-pro (he didn't shoot any bystanders), had known they were there. If the barbershop patrons and hangerons stay in the shop I don't see a problem with them staying open late. If the hangerson congregate in the street I think it is reasonable to make them close earlier. Just my opinion. | ||
| K_soze Citizen Username: K_soze Post Number: 192 Registered: 11-2005 |
 A bystander was shot | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5012 Registered: 1-2004  |
Tux Bigger suggestion. In the next election DO NOT VOTE for any of the current BOT. | ||
| Agrackle Citizen Username: Agrackle Post Number: 48 Registered: 2-2004 |
Fundraising concept #1: Ticket the cars doing 50 mph down Montrose, Vose, Ridgewood, etc. Here's the math...$50 speeding ticket x 10 tickets per day x 365 days per year = $182,500 in revenue. Subtract costs for more court time, etc., still think it covers an additional officer or two. Fundraising concept #2: Ticket property owners in the Seton Hall area who permit their tenants to continue to behave poorly. Here's the math....$2,000 per violation (according to BOT members at the last neighborhood meeting) x 2 violations per month (conservatively) x 12 months per year = $48,000 in revenue (plus quieter streets in and around SHU). Fundraising concept #3: Finish all the construction projects in town so we can actually begin collecting property taxes again. Here's the math...don't exactly know, but surely it would cover an additional officer or two. Any more suggestions (other than not spending tax dollars on pet projects like Tau and the Old Stone House)? | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 135 Registered: 10-2005 |
If you've actually lived in, or around South Orange for at least ten years, you'd know that 319 SO Ave is a popular spot for people to congregate, this isn't something new. And it certainly did not come from the opening of the barber shop. When customers order food from Cluck U, Village, or the chinese restaurant, they generally wait outside, until it is ready. These are essentially fast food and take-out establishments, they were not built for their customers to dine in. It is also sickening that some MOLers label these patrons, "thugs", although I'm fully aware why you perceive them this way: young, black males. Also, some of you are giving the killers way too much credit. Unfortunately, murder does not always involve some elaborate, cinematic scheme. Somebody had it out for this man, perhaps had been following him, and acted on the first opportunity they had to take him out. I'm not minimizing the actual act, I just refuse to give the murderers anymore credit than that, because let's face it, when you'll shoot someone on a main thoroughfare in broad daylight, you didn't care too much about getting caught. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11486 Registered: 5-2001 |
My bad, I thought the deceased was able to wing the gunman. Didn't realize a passerby was injured. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2762 Registered: 4-2002 |
JTA: Thanks (sarcasm) Argackle: Not sure I agree with your math on # 1, but my guess is the revenue would be less after a few months because people catch on to increased enforcement fairly quickly. #2: There have been some fines, but the judge can reduce them (and that has happenned in the past). So while maybe there should be more enforcement, you are assuming there is none at this point and that all of the fines would stick. The SHU students are not a problem 12 months of the year. In fact, party times seem to be Sept - Nov and March - early May. on your point # 3: Agreed and I would agree we should hire more police at that point. In my opinion, the best suggestion would be for SHU to be required to contribute (this takes a change at the state level) their fair share - at least towards the municipal portion of the budget. It makes no sense that we have to provide services yet receive only a minimal amount (and yes, I know that legally they do not have to give the town one cent, yet they do pay about $150,000 in lieu of taxes). If each student was required to contribute $100/per year there would be enough to hire four more police officers and four more firefighters. Really when you think about students spending upwards of a $100,000 for an education, another $400 over four years does not seem like a burden, and yet seems more than fair. | ||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 354 Registered: 2-2005 |
what if the owner of that building which has been a location of various crimes over the years had placed a survalience camera on the outside of it? Its not uncommon for property owners to camera up their own buildings. I think there's been enough occurances down there to warrant it five years ago. As for them not getting enough garbage pick up...Are you telling me there isn't another garbage company around, or they are too lazy to place it elswhere before pickup instead of leaving it at the curb 24/7. | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 815 Registered: 1-2006 |
This is dumb. Why wouldn't we want law abiding, merchandise purchasing customers to congregate in our town? What if the Pizza place had outdoor seating for candlelight dinners in the Summer? What if the barbershop hired musicians to give free concerts at night for their evening customers? The issue is NOT simply businesses being open at night. Forcing them to close earlier will not solve any problem. J.B. | ||
| FlyingSpaghettiMonst Citizen Username: Noodlyappendage Post Number: 125 Registered: 11-2005  |
I think Princeton contributes much more than the minimal amount that Mark is suggesting to their locality. Maybe we could rezone SHU into Newark and let the Newark taxpayers pick up the soaring costs of fire, police and ambulance with very little compensation. We get their crime, we give them our tax burden. Fair enough? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 479 Registered: 1-2006 |
Mark: Point 1. You admit we would raise much needed money, and make Scotland Road safer for children to cross, and others to drive on. So, let's get to it. jd | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1821 Registered: 12-2003  |
Alternately, we could stop blaming Seton Hall for everything that goes wrong, and start taking some responsibility for our own community. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5015 Registered: 1-2004 |
Marc You're not up for re election in 2007 so I didn't mean you! You are about the ONLY person I would vote for again. Up until the Tau mess I would have voted for Eric. Not now. Sorry. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5016 Registered: 1-2004 |
The shhoting didn't happen because of SHU | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3098 Registered: 5-2004 |
JTA, um, Mark was not up for re-election last cycle (2005), so I believe that means he would be up this cycle (2007). Eric, Terriann and Stacey are one cycle. Mark, Art, Allan and Bill are the other cycle. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2764 Registered: 4-2002 |
JTA: ok doke. Rastro is correct. One more exciting year till the next election. | ||
| bettyd Citizen Username: Badjtdso Post Number: 233 Registered: 12-2005 |
I don't know if "thugs" hang out there or what makes a person a thug. The only irrefutable fact in this incident so far is that a thug was shot and killed there by another thug, and a bystander was wounded. Yet now most people are upset that some on this board have the nerve to be concerned that perhaps thugs frequent the area or hang out there. Why would such an incident raise such concerns? Unbelievable. Perhaps it was all just an unfortunate coincidence and nobody in the area knew the victim, the assailant or their affiliations with the Bloods. But I am not one prone to whistling past graveyards, and you should not be either. | ||
| FlyingSpaghettiMonst Citizen Username: Noodlyappendage Post Number: 126 Registered: 11-2005 |
Who's blaming SHU? Just saying that they are a double drain on our resources by not paying taxes and getting an extraordinary amount of services. Without that drag on our town budget, think of what we would have to spend on the residents. | ||
| jeep Citizen Username: Jeep Post Number: 114 Registered: 8-2005 |
So mr. Rosner are you going to run for VP? | ||
| cfb Citizen Username: Cfb Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2006 |
Hoops; Please see my response below: cfb - I cant see where this has anything to do with a barber shop. >>>OK The incident occured at 4:30. In the afternoon. Broad Daylight. Rush hour. Sun was shining. >>>What point are you trying to make? Should the barber shop be closed during the day and open at night when there are less innocent bystanders? Should we put on our blinders and not mention the barber shop when it comes to the shooting? Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that the barber shop is a part of the equation from an investigation perspective (vis-à-vis the shooting), regardless of personal opinion. It can’t escape that fact. It has nothing to do with the barber shops hours of operations. If they have clientelle that wants a trim at 11:00 PM before the big party on Friday night who are you to say that they cant make a buck? >>>I guess this is no longer an issue since (according to what you mentioned earlier) the shop has to be closed by 8:00 PM. But…since this is a discussion board I’ll state my opinion. No one’s trying to stop them from making a buck. They should make as many bucks as possible as long as they continue to follow the town’s ordinance(s) and other laws. If the desire to make a buck is the focal point of any shop, I would think that the owner would be interested in creating a safe environment for his/her clients. Not too many people will go to a shop where crimes are being committed on a regular basis nearby. Instead of focusing solely on making a buck 24/7, maybe the shop owners should look into how to enhance the security of their establishment…whether it is with quality surveillance cameras or whatever the experts recommend. I dont know the town ordinance as to what time the stores are required to close but if they are obeying this ordinance then what other possible complaint can you have? >>>As long as they obey the town’s ordinances, it’s the legitimate business that it has always been, and no one’s hanging out in front of their shop, I have no complaints whatsoever. | ||
| cfb Citizen Username: Cfb Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2006 |
Hmm…interesting comment about the CHS population. If one cannot discern a ghetto thug from a CHS wangster(gangster wannabe), then what can I say? Since the title of this thread is “Shooting Ramifications”, I’d like to stay on that topic. Maybe a new thread on “what makes a thug” can be started to address that issue. We all have different personalities, and thus have different ways of dealing with the problems we face (and I respect that….Vive la difference!). Some of us are “wait and see” types and some of us are not. One of the major differences between SO and the boroughs is the per capita crime rate. Shootings and gang activities may be normal occurrences in the boroughs, but that is not the case here in SO. If we all have this “crime happens so let’s move on” attitude, sit on our hands and not take any preventive measures against it, then SO won’t be much different from the boroughs (from a per capita crime rate perspective). The only major difference will be the lack resources to respond to these crimes. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 331 Registered: 2-2006 |
What makes you think that all gang members or big time drug dealers are out-of-towners??? You don't think you have active gang members living in our neighborhood. You don't think that there are people living in this town who are pretty big in the drug circle...OH man are you naive. You think you moved out of Brooklyn or where ever and you came to the suburbs. Now you think..we have to protect our neighborhood from thugs (god knows what you all consider qualifying traits or behavior). You do not realize that this neigborhood was once a nesting ground for major gang activity namely the mob and I am not talking in the 60's and 70's but as recent as 8 years ago. Diversity doesn't just mean we have a couple of rich, a couple of medium and a couple of poor neighborhoods. Or the racial breakdown is correct. It also means that they are good and bad people living in the same town. Don't always assume everybody bad has to be from Newark. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1336 Registered: 10-2004 |
cfb - are there crimes being committed 'on a regular basis' near the barber shop? Please inform the SO Police so they can walk down the block to investigate. The murder is a troubling incident yes but you keep tainting a business as being part of it. Can I take it that you dont get your hair cut there? Maybe you should try it and see for yourself. | ||
| K_soze Citizen Username: K_soze Post Number: 198 Registered: 11-2005 |
Bajou - good point hoops - I know you (and many others) want to believe that we (SO) don't have this criminal element right here at home, but ask around...see if you can find out what took place at the barber shop today |
