| Author | Message | ||
     bettyd Citizen Username: Badjtdso Post Number: 240 Registered: 12-2005 |
cmontyburns: Was that directed at me? I've said repeatedly the only known facts are a thug killed another thug and there is a connection with the Bloods. Is that not true? Well, I guess I'll sign off and let the rest of you in the know tell me what REALLY happened. | ||
| FlyingSpaghettiMonst Citizen Username: Noodlyappendage Post Number: 129 Registered: 11-2005  |
Glock, is it okay for me to be pro-truth,pro-gressive and pro-white? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 906 Registered: 7-2005  |
Well the concept of pro-black is that Black's are lower than whites on the social ladder in this country and therefore need a movement to bring equality. Being pro-white is unnecessary unless one fears being equal with blacks. This is roughlly along the same lines of why we don't have white history month...or white history classes. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1354 Registered: 10-2004  |
++ on a serious note ++ Further ramifications affected the barber shop only. I think someone above mentioned an incident that occured the Friday after the shooting at the barber shop. I heard this by watching the video of the Village BOT on their website - its about 50 minutes into the video. It turns out that the police raided the barber shop. Handcuffed the owner and his patrons and had them stand outside while they searched the store for drugs and anything illegal. They found nothing and thus had to release the people that they had detained. Clearly that is undue harassment and something that could actually cut into the barber business. Who want to go to a place where you can get arrested for getting an hair cut? Later they invited one of the owners to the police station to give a statement. There they detained the owner and did not ask for a statement but instead interrogated him for 4 hours. They did not arrest the pizza shop clientelle and owner, cluck u nor the chinese store or liquor store. I find this behavior ridiculous and frankly racist. | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 139 Registered: 10-2005 |
HOOPS-Of course it's racist, but it's also being facilitated by some of our neighbors, maybe some of the posters here on MOL. Let's see the outrage or at least, a hint of concern for the way they were treated. There won't be any, but I bet it wouldn't have happened if a shooting occurred in front of...hmmm, say Bunnies. | ||
| tomp Citizen Username: Tomp Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2001 |
Two points: 1. They arrested two people in the barber-shop raid. However, the police chief said that these arrests were based on outstanding warrants and weren't related to the murder. It doesn't sound like they found what they were looking for. 2. My understanding is that the murder victim was a customer of the barber shop, not of the other establishments. It's not unreasonable that the barber shop should be the subject of suspicion here. The big concern (in my mind at least), is that the victim was in that location because he was conducting business there, and not just enjoying the nice Saturday afternoon weather. My impression is that that's what the police suspected as well, and that that explains the raid. Sean, the one owner of the raided salon, defended himself at the BOT meeting by saying that the murder occurred outside - not in his establishment - and that he had no way of controlling what his customers did after they left his store. He didn't deny that it was his customers who were involved in the incident. To ignore these facts and imply that the barber shop was singled out by the police because its owners and customers were black is uncalled for and, I'm certain, incorrect. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9419 Registered: 4-1997  |
Everyone should watch the meeting video and decide for themselves. It kind of breaks down like this: people who live on Fairview Ave. of all races are very concerned about their safety and the future of their neighborhood and the town. The business owners and patrons are bringing up the race issue and are saying they've lost faith in the police. I don't think the viewpoints expressed necessarily contradict one another. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 910 Registered: 7-2005 |
Once again. "Oh no shooting. Oh no...barbershop wit black people! The barber shop must be a gang related crack den that led to the shooting! Harrass black people to make everyone else feel safer! Hooray!" | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1356 Registered: 10-2004 |
The guy also had a slice of pizza. The issue is not whether the victim had his hair cut, the question is why should the innocent actions of a barber doing his job cause the ramification of a raid on his establishment? The cause and effect are not there. Cops can walk down the street and stop every man and probably find one or two that have an 'outstanding warrant'. Your term is nebulous. The incident is patently racist. If the business was a white owned cell phone shop or white owned drug store would the same procedure taken place? I dont think so. LW - I agree with you. Thats why I am expressing outrage. Thats why I am trying to shed some light on the issue. Racism exists and in order to eliminate it you have to understand not only where you stand but where the people who you want to change stand. In many things I agree with you but your style divides more then it conquers sometimes. I dont think we can change peoples perceptions by being polar opposites or by not trying to see their point of view. I think peoples perceptions can change when they are open to allowing other points of view. | ||
| jeep Citizen Username: Jeep Post Number: 124 Registered: 8-2005 |
If the person who was shot was in the mood for coldstone the shooting would have taken place on Sloan Street. It is that simple. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 912 Registered: 7-2005 |
Exactly, Hoops. If it had been an upscale white-owned salon in Millburn...none of this would've happened. | ||
| jeep Citizen Username: Jeep Post Number: 126 Registered: 8-2005 |
Glock WRONG! If this person was getting their hair cut in a salon in Millburn it would have happend there! | ||
| LW Citizen Username: Lrw Post Number: 140 Registered: 10-2005 |
HOOPS-I agree with a majority of what you are saying, but unfortunately, not too many people here are open to other POV, and that's fine. It's those that are not open to the facts that are disturbing. The deceased, upon leaving the barber shop, stopped in Village to get a slice of pizza, after leaving Village is when he was murdered, so isn't he their customer, too? But were Tony and Joe, or their patrons handcuffed, detained, and searched? Not that I've heard of, so I'm sticking with this "procedure" being very selective in it's enforcement, and racist in it's nature. And the arrests made were meaningless results of the profiling, not a major break in the case. | ||
| Spanish Inquisitor Citizen Username: Sinq Post Number: 72 Registered: 4-2004  |
Keep in mind if the police didn't investigate that too may be considered a dereliction of duty. Someone was murdered. Businesses should be happy for a slight inconvenience to get to the bottom of the matter and put the perp in jail. A thorough investigation may be underway and more businesses may be inconvenienced. Let's give the police our support folks. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1357 Registered: 10-2004 |
Spanish - the businesses , all of them, were quite happy to cooperate with the police. The difference is that business owners, workers and customers did not need to be handcuffed while waiting outside the business in public view and humiliation while the cops 'investigated' wrong doing inside the business. Seems to me that the investigation in this case is pretty easy. Q: What happened A: I just cut the guys hair, dont know him from a whole in the wall, never saw him before today. He went outside got something to eat and the next thing I know theres gunshots Q: Thank you, we will send a detective by later to get a complete statement or you can come to the precinct A: OK just tell me when. How did this simple fact finding investigation turn into a affair that caused anyone to be handcuffed? These are innocent people who were harrassed for no reason one week later. It is an absolute outrage. If a bank is robbed do they arrest the bank manager, cuff him and search the bank? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 913 Registered: 7-2005 |
Jeep...you obviously don't get it. It WOULD NOT happen there. | ||
| jeep Citizen Username: Jeep Post Number: 128 Registered: 8-2005 |
Glock you obviously do not get it! My point is it is not the fault of the businesses. If it did not happen there it would have happened someplace else. Are you saying that the person who was shot was not capable of going to Millburn, Short Hills, Maplewood, New York CIty? What are you trying to say? | ||
| Scalia Citizen Username: Scalia Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2004 |
Did the police have a warrant, and, therefore, probable cause? Or did circumstances exists (including, possibly, exigent circumstances) that led to a warrantless search? If the former occurred, it is important to note that the warrant was issued by a judge upon determining that it is more likely than not that the specific items to be searched for are connected to criminal activity and that such items will be found at the place to be searched. If no warrant was issued, it is reasonable for the police to be questioned as to what circumstances existed that led them to search a local business without a warrant. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 914 Registered: 7-2005 |
The police would not have raided an upscale place in Millburn. They would not be suspects and they would probably be given free tea and cookies. | ||
| Kitchenguru Citizen Username: Kitchenguru Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2005 |
CMontyBurns, Thanks for the tip, but the facts aren't for the comedians on this thread, they are for the "potential newcomers" who are starting to wonder what the heck they got themselves into. Thanks MJH, I can't actually go anywhere, I'm definitely a believer since I've bought in this town three times. Just want to comment on enlighening the racists: Hoops, I appreciate your statements: ("LW - I agree with you. Thats why I am expressing outrage. Thats why I am trying to shed some light on the issue. Racism exists and in order to eliminate it you have to understand not only where you stand but where the people who you want to change stand. In many things I agree with you but your style divides more then it conquers sometimes. I dont think we can change peoples perceptions by being polar opposites or by not trying to see their point of view. I think peoples perceptions can change when they are open to allowing other points of view.")I'm sure you know very well that no amount of enlightenment is going to stop racism. The fight has been going on in these parts for decades. You heard from many long time residents on this thread that things just stay the same. Personally, I think it's a miracle that we have so little crime. Our downtown is built on the highway to the poorest city in the United States. I think we better count our blessings before we tip off some more perpetrators(and the police) about how ungrateful we are. | ||
| bettyd Citizen Username: Badjtdso Post Number: 241 Registered: 12-2005 |
Hoops, why are you assuming the investigation into this murder should be "pretty easy"? Maybe the police know something we don't, or someone has given them reliable information that is causing them to investigate the way they are. Your hypothetical police officer asks "what happened?" and the person being interviewed says: "I just cut the guy's hair, don't know him from a hole in the wall, never saw him before today..." Case closed I guess. And I've been accused of jumping to conclusions. Do you know why any people were handcuffed, or the nature of the outstanding warrants? Were the pizza shop owners talked to? Were they checked for outstanding warrants? Do you really want the police officers of this town investigating a murder and not asking tough questions of the business where the victim, a gang member/murderer, had been? I am glad to see the police doing a thorough investigation of a brutal murder. They do a great job and are not influenced by anything except getting to the bottom of a situation according to the law and proper police procedure. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1831 Registered: 12-2003  |
"Were the pizza shop owners talked to? Were they checked for outstanding warrants?" Oh give me a break. And you still claim you've done nothing here but report the facts? | ||
| Kitchenguru Citizen Username: Kitchenguru Post Number: 84 Registered: 9-2005 |
Although this is not a fair comparison, but when the female college student was murdered after leaving the bar in NYC, everyone there was interrogated for up to ten hours each. I read the account of the bartender in New York Magazine. No one who worked with the guy in custody had any clue as to who he was, or his background. Of course we still don't know what happened, but his record was the most shocking in that it was overlooked. | ||
| bettyd Citizen Username: Badjtdso Post Number: 242 Registered: 12-2005 |
cmontyburns: Again, for the last time, the only facts I am aware of are a thug/convicted murdere killed another thug, and there is a connection to the Bloods. Can we all agree on at least that? Answer this question: Do you know whether the pizza shop people were talked to by the police? I don't know if they were or not. Answer this question: Do you know if they were checked for outstanding warrants? I don't know if they were or not. Answer this question: Do you know the nature of the outstanding warrants? I don't. Enlighten me or tell me that you don't know either. | ||
| bettyd Citizen Username: Badjtdso Post Number: 243 Registered: 12-2005 |
Correction on the facts before you jump on me: the victim was the convicted murderer. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1358 Registered: 10-2004 |
bettyd - I really dont know why you are taking the position you are taking but you are taking a very stubborn position and refusing to look at facts. I challenge you to review the tape of the BOT meeting and listen to the owners description of what happened and then you can tell me if the police did the job they were supposed to do or if they went on a fishing expedition complete with harassment of business owner and customer. Taking your argument to their logical conclusions everybody on that block should have been questioned, handcuffed, had their possessions searched and been asked to come back to the police station later to give their statements. These cops were wrong, the business owner, who by the way is a recent Columbia HS grad and therefore a local man trying to make a living in his home town is only asking for consideration and fortunately not going to sue. No one is asking for an investigation that sweeps anything under the rug. What they are asking for is some equity and some respect. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5056 Registered: 1-2004  |
Hoops How is what happend considered 'racist?' Are the owners of the other stores you mentioned all white? If so, I agree with you. If not, maybe there is something going on none of us know about? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5057 Registered: 1-2004 |
Kitchen And that bar in NY just lost their liquor license because they seem to have been hiring people with known criminal records... | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 919 Registered: 7-2005 |
Oh, it's racist. I'd be willing to wager my left...foot that if it had happened in front of Bunny's they'd be left alone. | ||
| shestheone Citizen Username: Shestheone Post Number: 276 Registered: 5-2003 |
Glock, With Bunny's it would be political favoritism. That's a whole other ball of wax.... | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 922 Registered: 7-2005 |
Either way..it doesn't matter. People assume that Black-owned barbershops are some sort of hotbed for crime. | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 848 Registered: 1-2006  |
Glock, An African American man shot and killed another African American man. The cops looked at the four stores: college chicken shack, pizza place, chinese food place, barbershop that caters to African Americans, and a liquor store (Hispanic owners, I think.) I'm pretty sure if two Chinese Guys had a shoot out, or two Hispanic guys had a shoot out, or two SHU students had a shoot out, or two Italian guys had a shoot out, the barber shop would be in the clear. Is it racial? Absolutely. Is it Racist? I wouldn't be so quick to judge. The cops are trying to find the perpetrator of a crime against an African American. Let them ask a few African Americans about it. J.B. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 923 Registered: 7-2005 |
Why don't they ask everyone? Does not everyone have eyes? Is not everyone capable of crime? Could not everyone be hiding something? It is racist because the Black business is being specifically targeted. | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 850 Registered: 1-2006 |
Do you really think they didn't ask any one else? No, it is racial, because the "Black business" is being targeted. Did you read and understand my point? J.B. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 924 Registered: 7-2005 |
Yeah, it was not quite sane. If the shooting happened on the strip in front of all of those stores, then all of those stores should be treated in the same, fair and considerate manner. I believe that falls under "Racial Equity". | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 853 Registered: 1-2006 |
I agree about fair and considerate. Don't you think it's reasonable for the police to "shake down" the place most likely to generate relevent information? On "Law and Order" they follow the most likely theory. Sometimes they're wrong. But they don't "shake down" totally unrelated people and businesses just to maintain "Racial Equity." That's all I'm saying. An African American shot another African American. The police have to question and "shake down" African Americans. Sorry, but they'd be fools not to. J.B. | ||
| cfb Citizen Username: Cfb Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2006 |
Is this “let’s pick on bettyd” day? Geesh! Give her a break. ============================================================= I agree w/ Jersey_Boy's assessment that this is definitely racial. =============================================================== Hoops, It’s nice to see that you’re posting again. I think all of the businesses on that strip will be affected by the shooting, at least in the short run, not just the barber shop. Not too many people feel safe going to a store where someone was recently got shot. They [the stores] may all experience a temporary lag in demand. I don’t think the ramifications for them would exactly be considered unforeseen. I’m sure it must have been scary, extremely embarrassing and humiliating for the owner to have to stand in front of his own barber shop in hand cuffs. On top of that, his customers were also in cuffs. That’s appalling. Definitely not the best for the image of the business. What happened in front of that barber shop was unfortunate and ostensibly unfair. Was it racist? No. It was standard operating procedure. I can tell you countless humiliating raid stories that would make your hair stand on end. [I’ll tell you a quick one—please forgive the drift in thread---This one was more frustrating than humiliating…my friend was arrested at a client’s house because the place was being raided. The agency she works for had to come and vouch for her before the police would release her]. I don’t think it’s “the innocent actions of a barber doing his job” that caused the ramification of a raid on his shop. Considering that this raid happened almost a week after the incident, chances are the police had a search warrant. As someone mentioned earlier, there has to be just cause. The judge would not have issued a search warrant simply because the neighbors and some of the MOLers said that they think there are some thugs hanging out at the black-owned barber shop. My guess is that there were probably some “serious” complaints about what was going on at/near the barber shop previously, and the recent shooting prompted the police to really put the heat on. If, on the other hand, the police handled this raid in an unlawful manner, the owner(s) should get a lawyer to look into it. Either way, he/they will probably need a good defense attorney. The law is not always black or white…no pun intended. Many factors of the law may seem unfair. Racism is a very serious problem in this society. We can’t, however, blame racism for something we don’t agree with or don’t understand. From what I’ve seen, the police department is very fair and responsive. I’ve called them many times for help, and they’ve never asked me what my race was before responding. I don’t think a police force can afford to be racist in a diverse town like South Orange. The blacks in SO are not exactly an oppressed minority. But then again, I’m no expert on racism or race relations, maybe there’s more to this than meets the eye. Maybe your experiences were different from mine or maybe you have some insider information on the practices of the SOPD (no sarcasm intended). | ||
| K_soze Citizen Username: K_soze Post Number: 222 Registered: 11-2005  |
Why does everyone here think they know so much about what's gone on? My god, why do we need to play the racial card all the time and so quickly? Hoops- I find this behavior ridiculous and frankly racist are you an officer, are you in any way connected to the investigation, do you have the full story on why the police went in there? Absolutely not so how can you make such a statement? You're calling the SOPD racists. No one was or can get arrested for getting their hair cut so stop the drama. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 926 Registered: 7-2005 |
Why are you so against believing it is an issue of race? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1360 Registered: 10-2004 |
let me take the conversation down a notch. In my opinion the actions of the police force were inapropriate and harsh for no reason. If you want to say that individually the good police officers of the SOPD were acting in good faith then I can not say they were not. I am not condemning any individual officer as being a racist. I am saying that the race of the individuals involved in the case was certainly a factor and while I cannot prove any charge of racism against the SOPD as an institution I can say that in this instance it is hard to ignore it. The owners and a patron are on tape at the BOT complaining about the way they were treated. I am not aware of any procedure where when a search warrant is issued the owner is automatically handcuffed and lined up on a sidewalk while the search is in effect. Harsh treatment. Wrong treatment. Inconsiderate treatment. Foolish treatment of a business owner. Irresponsible treatment. |
