| Author | Message | |||
     MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4025 Registered: 5-2001  |
Susan, VG, SOL, Lizzie, SOP, Lucy - THANK YOU! We had another great day collecting signatures today and are finding more and more people are at least aware of the issue now and are outraged by it. BTW, Mary, if you don't like rewatching video clips, you can simply read the Meeting Minutes which also prove that the sculpture people are WRONG with their claim above: ... asked if the Village taxpayers would have to pay the balance of the cost for this sculpture in the event the Committee did not raise the funds. Village President Calabrese replied in the affirmative. http://www.southorange.org/minutes/2006/02-27-06RM.pdf | |||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 359 Registered: 2-2006 |
MHD for BOT. Draft him everyone! | |||
| Steve Hickson Citizen Username: Shickson Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2006  |
Wow---I'm new to this town and this whole sculpture thing is quite surreal---I think the arts are great for a community, adds culture and interest---but, to tear down a perfectly fine and functional gazebo for piece of "art" at a cost of up to $500K for South Orange taxpayers is the very definition of ridiculous---I have already signed the petition and I am glad I did. Hmmm, maybe we should fix the Niagra Falls in our library first? | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4026 Registered: 5-2001 |
Very funny new blog entry from Dan Shelffo regarding the illegal and libelous leaflets the sculpture people(person?) left on cars earlier this weekend: http://www.nj.com/weblogs/offtheshelf/ Dan - I also spelled your name right & helped drive traffic to your blog and I didn't have to libel you in the process.  | |||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 3292 Registered: 9-2003 |
MHD - haven't seen the leaflet - would you be so kind as to scan it and share? | |||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 590 Registered: 1-2004  |
People are quick to blame others on their interpretation/perception of what this sculpture will look like at the intended location (including letters to the NR Editor). It would be fair criticism if the committee had presented one as part of their leafleting as the "true" picture of what has been planned. Until then, it is up to our imagination. | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9375 Registered: 4-1997  |
The Photoshop image Bailey created and uploaded, and which is being used in handouts, was taken directly from a photo of Tau in NYC. The people standing next to it are in the original photo. http://www.artnet.com/Magazine/reviews/walrobinson/Images/robinson8-2-16.jpg | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9376 Registered: 4-1997 |
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| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3894 Registered: 5-2001  |
I believe that TAU will be discussed during this evening's BOT meeting; I plan to tune in... -s. | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4028 Registered: 5-2001 |
Soda, What makes you say that? It is not on the agenda. Are you planning to publicly discuss YOUR position on "ugly black metallic art everywhere"? (your words from another thread) | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4038 Registered: 5-2001 |
SoOrLady, Here are the misleading materials that were illegally placed on car windshields over the weekend by the scuplture people:
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| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4039 Registered: 5-2001 |
Here is the second part of the materials.
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| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4040 Registered: 5-2001 |
Here is the last part of the materials. There were also some copies of Letters to the Editor and a News Record article that I didn't bother scanning. Suprisingly, they didn't have a reprint of THIS article: 
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| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 3300 Registered: 9-2003 |
Thanks for the flyers... I guess "they just don't understand". Wonder why the video from last night's meeting isn't available yet. I couldn't tune in until after 9 - seems like I missed a lot. | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4044 Registered: 5-2001 |
BTW...the sculpture people keep questioning why we keep mentioning the $500,000 cost for this project - because we got it from THEM: (Star Ledger article-Jan 9, 2003) "Wukitsch's husband, the late Lennie Pierro, first had the idea for the town to acquire a Smith sculpture. Pierro was an artist and professor who co-founded the gallery with his wife. After Pierro died just over a year ago, an arts foundation was started in his name. The foundation's first project is to acquire the Smith sculpture. "One of my husband's goals was to get a sculpture to honor this native son," said Wukitsch, who estimates it will cost around $500,000 to obtain a Smith sculpture, which are made-to-order under the supervision of his estate." | |||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4965 Registered: 1-2004  |
MHD Would you be kind enough to get me copies that aren't marked? I think you know what I want them for. I have a suggestion. Anyone who got one of these on your car go to the police department and sign a complaint against each and every person whose name is on that flier. Fair warning to the sculpture pack, if I find one of those on my car I will sign complaints against you. Bill Calabrese included. Another question. Doesn't Jim Buchanan, Carol and Jim Gordon, Emily Hubley, and Carol Jochnowitz all live in Maplewood? And I thought David Ritfkin lived in Va? Why are these people allowed to decided how our taxes are spent? Why are our elected officials funding a project for a private organization? And considering our taxes are funding it, shouldn't we be allowed to see their bank records and an accounting of how the money is being spent? If they have all this support how come their event didn't sell out? Why won't they go on record with the amount of tickets they sold and the amount of money they raised? Where did the money the BOT took from SOPCA for the sculpture come from? Can't someone notify the source of the money to inform them what is going on? Maybe if they get wind of what is going on they will take the money back! Does anyone know how to get in touch with any of Tony Smith's living relatives? I doubt they would want one of his sculptures being fabricated under these circumstances. | |||
| marion cobretti Citizen Username: Marion_cobretti Post Number: 129 Registered: 1-2005 |
why wouldn't they? if i could get $500,000 for that piece of s**t that looks like my father said "the hell with it",i'd be laughing all the way to the prescription counter. | |||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 4978 Registered: 1-2004 |
All I have to say to the 'sculpture people' is desperate people will do whatever it takes -huh and they must be pretty desperate to sink to the lows they have? The information in their latest packet of 'truth' is just more another packet of lies. Can those named and lied about on those fliers sue the sculpture peoplem? If they are so sure they have so much support from the taxpayers, why are they so afraid to put the project on hold and allow the residents vote on it? OOOH OOOH OOH! I know the answer to that! Because it would be discovered there mught be less then 200 people who support them!!! 32 of those people are on the sculpture board. Another 32 their spouses.  What does it take to get through to these people while art is nice the town just can't afford it right now? | |||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 297 Registered: 5-2005 |
I can't remember which lady it was at the BOT meeting, but one of them said (referring to what subject I can't remember either) that of course the people we talk to etc would be of the same opinion and mind set as ourselves, as we stay in circles of same like-minded people... Well, I must in the minority then.. I base my "circle" of friends and acquaintances not on whether they agree with me or not. My friends and acquaintances are in "my circle" because I like them. They are fun to talk to, they make me laugh, they can provoke intelligent and in some cases argument ensuing conversation. In "my circle" there are democracts, republicans, and off-the-wall anti all kinds of formal government types. I have friends who are artists and writers, and others who think that written art is the Daily News. I have others who look at a picture I love on my wall and see what I see, and another who looked and said what a waste of paint, and THAT colour green is the same as the one in my bathroom.... If you restrict yourself to "like minded people" you are getting a very narrow viewpoint. So, step outside of your cosy like-minded circle and see what we see. AGAIN, while art is almost always good, it should NEVER be at the cost of other much needed/essential services. It is good that the TSP people have a vision. It is a credit to them that they are tenacious, but it is NOT right that they are pushing this through knowing that the money is being taken from taxes, whatever the amount, when the town needs every penny of it for essential maintenance... More importantly, it is not right that our BOT is letting this happen. Work for our Town BOT, work for ALL the residents of the town BOT...maintain the fabric of our town. My street is in dire need of repair, if you were looking for some way to spend the money perhaps you could start there.... | |||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 468 Registered: 1-2006 |
Jim Gordon lived in SO for many years, and moved away a couple of years ago. I don't think he moved to Maplewood. While reading the cuteT-shirts worn by the Smithistas, I realized that this is all about "me too-ism." There is a list of about ten to twenty cities with either original or copies of Smith's works on the back of the tees, and our fair village is not one of them. They want SO to be on the list. At our expense. jd | |||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2006 |
Soparents "while art is almost always good, it should NEVER be at the cost of other much needed/essential services" Extrapolate that statement to State and Federal politics and see if you still agree with it. Should we close NJPAC for a year to add a lane to the Turnpike? Should we get rid of art and music classes for a semester, and take that money to fix curbs? It's a slippery slope. | |||
| Crazy_quilter Citizen Username: Crazy_quilter Post Number: 281 Registered: 2-2005 |
i'm an artist. should i receive money just because i want to make art? should taxpayers support my career? why don't i make art good enough that people pay for it? otherwise, i should get out of the business of making art. maybe it's a good slippery slope, cali6buff. | |||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1557 Registered: 3-2002 |
We should in some cases fund art from the public pocket, but we should never do so without fair and honest debate. NJPAC funding should not be hidden in the Turnpike budget. Tau funding should not be hidden in the "sidewalks and road repair" budget. Period. We should step away from the current deal, and have an honest discussion about funding Tau, especially in a year with a double digit local tax increase. Right now I'm a firm opponent of the project due to the way it has come to fruition. I become a stronger opponent every time the TS Project people come before the BOT and represent themselves as the majority, and characterize the opposition as a "few very vocal opponents extremely busy trying to scurry up support for their agenda" and spreading "misinformation put out on the internet" (I've been catching up on my BOT watching on a day off). Although I think some of the opponents are strident, I think that some of the supporters have put on blinders and are no longer serving the town well. If this project is the right project, it should be able to be funded without hiding the money from the townspeople and even some members of the BOT. If the supporters become honest, and step away from a tainted deal with the town, I continue to be ready to offer my support. Until then, I am, sadly, becoming less and less enchanted with this segment of the local arts community. | |||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3924 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ssan... what would you suggest to the "Sculpture People" as a fair, respectful way to disengage from the conflict? Is there a way for all parties to come out of this whole, and without more loss of face than is appropriate? -s. | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9388 Registered: 4-1997 |
The very nature of hiding it in the budget says a lot about those managing our money. Very Enron. What I dislike about some artist groups is that they are elitist and don't even give a second thought to their petty duplicities and often mirror the same behavior they claim to abhor in the corporate world. The "Bevery Hills has a TS work, so we should too" is plain old embarrassing to hear. | |||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2006 |
I'm talking about public funds. If you chose to be an artist by trade, good luck. The point is, art is not esential the way sidewalks and roads are. But some public money has to be spent on these softer things. Or they will just go away. Susan, you agree with me, i agree with you (mostly). I think every taxpayer wants to understand where thier money is going. And that's the real debate. | |||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1558 Registered: 3-2002 |
Soda, It isn't easy, and might put the project at some risk, of delay at minimum. But I think that the Smith Sculpture group could admit that there is significant opposition to the funding mechanisms, and that they do not want to be part of a polarizing political debate about how business is done in South Orange government. As much as they want this sculpture in place, they do not want to be judged going forward based on their relationship to a particular BOT, but by their service to South Orange. They could ask the BOT to have a more public debate, in the context of current town economics, and either reaffirm or deny funding. Whether by survey or by well announced public meetings, the public could lean in, and the BOT could have an honest debate on the sculpture, in which no trustee can say that they didn't know what they are voting for, what the price tag is, or where the funding is coming from. I'm assuming that all of this could be done in a period of a couple of months, with good organization. Since "most of the town" is behind them, the TS project group should have no fear of getting the support that they need. Heck, if the debate is redone honestly, I might become a supporter of public funding, as well as of their project. One has to assume that the Tony Smith estate wants him to be honored by his hometown, and would be willing to negotiate a slight delay in timeline if needed. If not, I'm very curious as to why not... | |||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 299 Registered: 5-2005 |
Susan1014 - I agree | |||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3422 Registered: 5-2001  |
I believe , but might not be correct Susan, that Tau is already being fabricated. WOuld you (the collective you) ask the foundry to delay delivery till the funding issues were resolved? What would or should be done with it till we accept or reject delivery?? | |||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 3307 Registered: 9-2003 |
I believe you are correct Nancy, however, it is my understanding (from a meeting that I had with Ms. Arnedt) that the fabricator would store the piece free of charge. It makes sense to pay the $86,000 fabrication bill and forgo the installation until all the money can be raised through grants of some sort of private funding. | |||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3926 Registered: 5-2001 |
Good answer, Susan.  -s. | |||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1559 Registered: 3-2002 |
LibraryLady, Yes, I would recommend delaying delivery. And I'd make sure that we moved the process to resolution ASAP. As people have said before, the retail value of this sculpture is far more than we are spending for it, so even if it were never installed, there should be a way to recoup the fabrication costs. I'm not saying that it shouldn't eventually be installed (under different circumstances), but I don't think we should use "sunk costs" as an excuse not to fix the wrongs that have been done to our civic process here. | |||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2006 |
Susan (or anyone else for that matter), I know this comment is a little late in the game. But here goes. As I understand it, and I've watched all of the meetings and so forth. The only thing the BOT could have done is save us some money. The money was spent on SOPAC, we got a grant of 250,000 for SOPAC, and so the 250,000 that was earmarked for SOPAC, was used to fund the sculpture. At the end of the day, we pay no more then we would have, had this never come up. (i have a follow up, but I'll wait for a response) | |||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 471 Registered: 1-2006 |
Don't confuse saving money with spending money. jd | |||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2006 |
I'll do my best. Is my summary accurate? | |||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3058 Registered: 5-2004  |
Actually, no. The money that was provided was supposed to be spent on SOPAC. To spend it on anything else would be illegal. The BOT BONDED for the money for Tau. Which means not only are we paying for the sculpture, but we will be paying for it over a long time, with interest. The grant for SOPAC was expected, and budgeted for. I believe it is an annual block grant. | |||
| Stuart0628 Citizen Username: Stuart0628 Post Number: 268 Registered: 2-2003 |
Not quite. Had the nature of the $250,000 been clear from the beginning, it would have been clear what that actual cost of Tau would be. If the $250,000 block grant was fungible, then the cost of Tau on the margin is $250,000 greater than claimed, since that $250K would have been ours anyway. Say we assume that with a fair and full accounting of where all the cash streams are going, knowing that cost on the margin to have Tau was $250,000 more than initially asserted, the Village decided to go ahead with Tau. Then the cost would have been the same, albeit with a lot less acrimony and ill will. But say we assume that with a fair and full accounting of where all the cash streams are going, knowing that cost on the margin to have Tau was $250,000 more than initially asserted, the Village decided to decline the Smith family's gift offer. Then the Village (and indirectly via a decrease on future taxes, the Villagers) would have several hundred thousand dollars more to pursue other civic projects, or to pursue Tau at a later date, or to put in the bank as individual Villagers. The bond interest is a very small consideration due to time value of money. The process that was FUBARed here is, to me, a significant consideration. If I am missing something, please advise. | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4048 Registered: 5-2001 |
Stuart, If I understood your post I would comment on it. Rastro summarized it perfectly. There are only 2 possibilities: 1) A $250,000 grant was received for SOPAC and the BOT plans to use it for TAU (and lied about it to HUD so they would not jeopardize the annual $250k block grant for the next 20 years) 2) A $250,000 bond was issued for street, sidewalk & roadway improvements, and the BOT plans to spend that money on TAU (and the BOT lied about to the public when they said "The Village is not going to spend a cent of taxpayer money") In either case, it is a complete betrayal and abuse of the public trust! | |||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2006 |
Stuart, I'm with MHD. I gather your commenting on the final cost to taxpayers after including interest, witch will be more than 250k. Understood. I believe that case 1 via MHD(through rasto) is accurate. So I sand by my origial comment that the BOT could have saved us 250k of long term debt. Which they chose not to do, most like because the taxes/bonding have already been aproved. And what gov't doesn't spend it, when they've got it. | |||
| Stuart0628 Citizen Username: Stuart0628 Post Number: 269 Registered: 2-2003 |
That's OK, I don't understand my post, either.  Does the following summary match your understanding? I am trying to be sure I fully understand the money trail. In a perfect world with good, clean governance: We receive a block grant of $250K. We spend it on roads and cops and good stuff like that. Totally separate from that, we consider Tau on its merits (knowing that there is no $250K linked to it, so the true cost is known). Tau is voted up or down. One of a couple things has happened to get us away from that ideal. Tau's true cost is represented to be $250K lower for one of two reasons. --The $250,000 block grant is "applied" to Tau, or --$250,000 of Road improvement bond is earmarked for Tau With respect to the bonding itself: The debt service dollars don't bother me as much as our getting away from the pay-as-you-go ideal and the ethic of spending only on what we can afford. And, yes, the misrepresentation by our elected officials. Since Tau's _true_ cost is $250,000 more than its supporters assert, will they be raising those funds themselves? |
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