| Author | Message | ||
     Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3065 Registered: 5-2004  |
Tau's supporters have pledged to raise 160k in funding. They have made no firm commitment on additional funds if they go over this amount, but Cheryl Arnedt has stated that no more than about $50k over that would be provided forthe sculpture directly. The rest would go to things like educational programs. My understanding, and that's rough given the amount of misinformation that has been provided by the BOT over the past year or so... We applied for (or considered applying for) a grant to pay for Tau. It was rejected because it did not fit into the CDBG program's definition of community development. Separately, SOPAC receives an annual grant of $250k from the CDBG program (I believe). The BOT tried to use this money for Tau. However that was already accounted for in the SOPAC financing, so all it is doing is shuffling money in accounts. It is all money already spent. Either SO would have to spend $250k on Tau, or they would have to spend an additional, unbudgeted $250k on SOPAC. Either way, it's $250k more than the residents truly knew about. What actually happened is that the BOT last year (or two years ago) approved a bill where $250k for Tau was buried in a Sidewalks and Roads line item in a bonding bill. So as has been noted, we are borrowing money to buy and build Tau, even though we have a budget crisis, and we have not paid off the loan on the item that Tau is replacing (the gazebo). | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 217 Registered: 3-2004 |
"because most of the town is behind them" I don't understand that. When did anyone ask the town if the gazabo should come down and the sculpture should go up? When did anyone submit the full budget? Every meeting members go ask for information and the board always trys to make them feel fwo feet tall. And every meeting I can admire that they go back? but Every week I wonder where everyone else in the village is? Does the majority of the Village actually think that the village should spend money to dismantle the gazebo, destroy the fountain and store the gazabo for use somewhere (I never hear where) other place because money should be spent by the village to place the statue on that particular site because there is no place in this entire Village that does not provide an equal or better opportunity for site location?????Huh? And because somebody (so it is said) indicates that it MUST BE THERE or else!!! Or else what? Does the majority of the village actually think that the "promised" balance of funds will be provided? Does the majority of the village actually understand that bond money was used to build the gazebo site? I must say, nobody asked me? I did not see a vote to determine that? The silent majority looses unless they step up.... When are we all going together down to village hall - Silent Majority where are you - go talk to some people and lets get this on the roll??????? Next Village Meeting - give me the date? Let's all go grab a couple of people to bring along | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 596 Registered: 1-2004  |
We look forward to everyone’s support on the many issues confronting this community by attending the BOT meetings. | ||
| Sitoyan Citizen Username: Sitoyan Post Number: 169 Registered: 7-2004  |
Last night was the Tony Smith fundraiser. Any news? How many people? Who was there? How much money was raised? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5037 Registered: 1-2004  |
Joel- If you were to look where some of the other TS sculptures are you will not find any in as cluttered an area as Sloan Street. Most, it not all, of the ones I could locate through Google were in park like settings. The few that weren't, had a lot of room around them. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5038 Registered: 1-2004 |
"We should in some cases fund art from the public pocket, but we should never do so without fair and honest debate." Exactly Susan! And for some reason we were misled for several years. At least TWO members of our BOT can NOT claim the did NOT know our taxes would be used because they are on the Tony Smith Sculpture Advisory Board!!! They had an OBLIGATION to ALL the tax payers of South Orange! Not just the 32 people on the 'sculpture board,' some of whom do NOT even live in South Orange!!! | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 219 Registered: 3-2004 |
They have a lot of room around them because as previously stated the site is not correct for the scale of the piece. A great observation, but beware, if you are not within the art circle then I guess your opinion does not count. And how could anyone want to tear something down that is complete? undo something done in order to place this? | ||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 323 Registered: 5-2005 |
Talk-it-up "And how could anyone want to tear something down that is complete? undo something done in order to place this?" "...if you are not within the art circle then I guess your opinion does not count." I imagine your last quote says it all......... | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4066 Registered: 5-2001  |
Sitoyan, I guess we'll have to wait for the next edition of People Magazine to read about the event. The sculpture people made such a big deal that the Managing Editor of People and many "luminaries" were going to be in attendance, I imagine it will be the cover story of the next edition. (it's certainly bigger news than Britney being pregnant again, right?)  | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 220 Registered: 3-2004 |
Some people have been speaking to me and indicated that there is a meeting tonight at the Board of Trustees. How many people could we get out to talk to the issue? Take down the gazebo and put up the sculpture (that could be better located somewhere else)? Does a gun belong on the side of the Flood's Hill? How many are at home reading this and have not gone down to the Board of Trustees? I have been told that there is a meeting tonight. Come one come all and claim back your Village. If you sit at home then.............. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4077 Registered: 5-2001 |
From what I have heard, on Saturday night (5/13), the sculpture people presented a rendering of the gazebo being relocated to Valley Street. (although when asked what was going to happen to the gazebo at the BOT Meeting on 5/8, Bill Calabrese stated no decision has been reached)  In attendance at the fundraiser were Trustees Devaris, Taylor, Rosner & Calabrese. | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 649 Registered: 6-2005 |
I am wondering what will happen to the trees surrounding the gazebo which have matured over these past few years. And what about the new trees they plan to surround the sculpture with? How large will they be? The sculpture committee windshield drop shows these trees towering to the roofline of the train station platform roof? Do you suppose this is an accurate rendering? | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 221 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hasn't anybody had enough? Where are you all during the Board Meetings? How come people don't come out? Why is it that the Gallery appears to have free reign? What ever happened to all opinions? All in the name of "Art". Do you all really want to see the Tony Smith take over that location at the gazebo? It appears if you do not agree with their judgement that you must not be a worthy person, not deep enough??? Most people don't even realize what it looks like and that the gazebo is going away? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4078 Registered: 5-2001 |
You mean THIS?  A website has been created (not by me) which archives much of the material that has been here on MOL: www.notaxesfortau.com | ||
| vermontgolfer Supporter Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 439 Registered: 12-2002 |
Boy, that's sure going to bring lot's of people to SO! | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 651 Registered: 6-2005 |
Today's News Record reports that the fund raiser gala raised $50,000. If that's right, then the committee still has to raise $110,000, if the $410,000 total project cost the committee quotes is accurate (doesn't include bond interest and costs of relocating the gazebo), and if we taxpayers are on the hook for the $250,000 balance. I wonder when and how they will raise that given the sculpture is supposed to be installed this fall. | ||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 3328 Registered: 9-2003 |
$250 a ticket and some really impressive auction items and all they netted was $50K? Sounds like it wasn't the high end "sold out" event we were told it would be. | ||
| Bailey Citizen Username: Baileymac Post Number: 286 Registered: 3-2005 |
well, nine more of those fundraisers will surely raise the total 500,000.00, no? Come on, with *most* south orange residents supporting this thing, surely they can raise all the rest! | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4080 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bailey, Except for the fact that the sculpture people have explicitly stated that even if they were to raise ALL the money (yeah, right), they will only contribute the $160k to the town and stick the town taxpayers with the balance. Repeat after me: notaxesfortau  | ||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 3333 Registered: 9-2003 |
I know they've raised some other money... and they still have those stylin' T-shirts to sell - but something tells me that we will end up paying a good portion of the committee's share of this project. | ||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 338 Registered: 5-2005 |
I think it would be a prudent move by the BOT (since they have agreed to pay $250K+) to expect the TSP to keep up their end of the bargain FIRST. They should be required to pay the 160K(?) they stated they would put in, and only after that, the BOT should start writing checks. The option to store the item (SoOrLady, was it you who said this could be done?) could well be a viable option right now until the $160K is on the table in full... This does not mean I agree with tax dollars at this time funding an art project, as this town has so much more urgently needing done, but it would show the mindset of the BOT's if they put this to the TSP..... | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5082 Registered: 1-2004 |
SOLady Considering the tickets were $250 each that means only 200 people PAID for a ticket. Doing the math, with 32 people on the Tony Smith Board add in the spouses that's 64. Then the PG people -figure at least 10 makes 74. Then you had two of our BOT members who are not on the board plus whoever went with them, another 4. Comes to 78 people. I'm sure Mary coughed up her money with her spouse comes to 80. That means maybe 120 people not part of the TS Board bought tickets. Wonder what happened to Calabrese's as well as Cheryl's statments the town is "100% behind this project,' and 'I spoke to the majority of residents who agree with me, blah blah blah... Goes to show there is NOT the support they want you to believe there is. If there were you wouldn't need yo have PG, Montrose Park or TS Board people writing the letters to the paper to make it seem so many residents want this. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5083 Registered: 1-2004 |
Ooops, I forgot about the auction items. I heard in reality between 100 and 150 tickets actually SOLD for this event. | ||
| dgm Citizen Username: Dgm Post Number: 299 Registered: 5-2001 |
I was there at the benefit, it was sold out, and it was fun...and unlike anything else in SO, Tau will get done. If you have a beef about how the money is spent, you should look at the budget for the expensive stuff like employee compensation, trustee benefits, loss on fair value of the land that the Village has bought and sold over the last five years, and tax expenditures like PILOT's offered to developers. Unfortunately, those are too big to understand easily. $250k is peanuts, and if you amortize it over 30 years (as in bonded debt) it comes out to $1,300 per year or about 58 cents per year per capita (16,000 residents). I suggest that you look forward (for example) to the demise of commuter surface parking that will be sacrificed to developers and which is imminent. Look what the cost of a parking structure to the community at $15,000-20,000 space. It will require debt service of about $8.20 per capita annually (compared to 58 cents) at $17,500 per space for 200 spaces or $657 per space annually over 30 years. Good thing tax exempt bonding is low interest compared to mortgages. I pay $140 annually now. How about that 469% increase in parking in the future ... that is, if there are enough spaces to go around. -DGM | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3167 Registered: 5-2004 |
dgm, I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I'm glad they were able to raise the money they did. $50k at a 200 person event is not bad at all. I'm sure there were expenses that had to be covered, so it looks like they did pretty well, considering. Most people's issue is not with the sculpture, nor even with the actual dollar amount, per se. It is with the way in which this was all done. It was hidden. it violated the general principal of operating under blue skies. Even our BOT could not articulate where the funds were coming from until well after the commitment had been made. I personally couldn't care less about this specific increase in my taxes. It is trivial. The damage done to the remaining credibility of our BOT is, however, monumental. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9458 Registered: 4-1997  |
Guess who said it "the sculpture is worth far more on the open market than the proposed costs of assembling and maintaining it. Presumed markets would be museums, art collectors, or the like." | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3171 Registered: 5-2004 |
Dick van Dyke? (yes, it's a slow day... already) | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2779 Registered: 4-2002 |
Trustee Rosen? | ||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 3334 Registered: 9-2003 |
That would have been my guess too.... by the way... happy Celebrate Your Elected Leaders Day. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9459 Registered: 4-1997 |
We have a winner. Here is Mark's prize  | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9460 Registered: 4-1997 |
simply print it out and hand it to the village clerk on your way out | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2780 Registered: 4-2002 |
(What was the prize for a non-trustee?) | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 1566 Registered: 4-2004  |
A Guest-shot in Terriann's seat should she ever happen to miss a meeting? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9461 Registered: 4-1997 |
 | ||
| Lucy Supporter Username: Lucy Post Number: 3750 Registered: 5-2005  |
 | ||
| dgm Citizen Username: Dgm Post Number: 300 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rastro, I agree with you about the way the funding has been handled. As one of the financial and conceptual supporters of Tau since the beginning, I am sorry that Tau has become the whipping boy for a lot of other governance issues that will in the long run affect us more. --Dgm | ||
| SO1969 Citizen Username: Bklyn1969 Post Number: 305 Registered: 7-2004 |
dgm I agree that T. Smith Sculpture has become a lightning rod for frustration with poor governance. However, as a stand alone project, it still does not pass muster for me on three fronts: (1) Lack of dissemination of accurate information and public discussion about the proposed project,its funding sources, its location and its appearance. Lump in here the whole basket of governance failures that have been discussed ad nauseum, which I believe you concede. (2) Use of public money at all for a project of this nature. I'm sorry, we are not Beverly Hills or even Short Hills. There are a lot of other, more basic needs that would need to be met before I'd agree to diverting dollar 1 of public money to this project. (3) Amount of public money. While it may pale in comparison to the truly huge costs - that you should rightly point out to fellow residents and challenge the powers that be on - associated with Township real estate ventures in the last several years, IT IS STILL A VERY LARGE AMOUNT OF MONEY FOR THIS TYPE OF EXPENDITURE. To put it in context, South Orange spending $250K on a piece of art is like New York City spending $500 million - $500 million on a single piece of art! (both are 1% of annual budgets) Does this type of analysis work for all public expenditures, no, but for a non-essential item, an amenity of this nature, I think it makes some sense. This public expenditure for a piece of art is out of scale with our town's size. Since this is the FACTS thread, I'm going to be a nitpicker and point out that the annual debt service number you were looking for was $13,000 not $1,300 ($13K is probably enough to pay total ongoing and replacement costs for 1 police squad car). However, the same can be said about any capital expenditure the Village chooses to make - we can pay for this with bonds and amortize over 30 years (which of course adds interest cost), so our annual cost is only X. What you're talking about is spending $250K today, the PV of which, using the bond rate as the discount rate, is $250K. While I want to focus on the fact that on a stand alone basis this project doesn't merit public funding, choosing to spend public dollars requires choosing to fund some things and not fund others, so there is inevitably a question of priorities. The $250K today could also be spent on the laundry list of projects/problems that so many residents have listed as higher priorities for their tax dollars. By funding this with public money, we will be something that is truly unique - even worthy of PBS special, or, I think, a 60 Minutes investigation: a community that publicly funds "world class" art - something you'd expect to find in the wealthiest enclaves of our country, but whose public buildings, some of its parks and playgrounds, and certain parts of its schools are so dilapidated or lacking in amenities, that you'd expect to find them in a left behind rust belt city or a depressed inner city. So, you supporters can proudly show visitors the publicly funded sculpture. And when showing my visitors around town, I can continue to carefully navigate the precincts of S. Orange to avoid showing the embarassing public neglect. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9465 Registered: 4-1997 |
great points | ||
| dgm Citizen Username: Dgm Post Number: 301 Registered: 5-2001 |
69, My mistake, $9,400 p.a. in debt service for $250k at 5% (remember bond coupons escalate with maturity from about 2% the first year to about 6% the last year). I think you are using prime rate or something. I still get $.58 per capita per annum. As for public neglect, I probably agree with you, but what is the thing that bothers you the most? I think it is town hall, but I am only one. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5085 Registered: 1-2004 |
So dmg Thanks for proving my point. You are on the TS Board. How can this event have 'sold out?' There were still plenty of tickets available a couple hours before the event... |
