| Author | Message | |||
     vermontgolfer Supporter Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 440 Registered: 12-2002 |
SO1969, Great points and well presented. Now only if we can get the crew at Village Hall to pay attention! | |||
| dgm Citizen Username: Dgm Post Number: 302 Registered: 5-2001 |
actually I am not on the board... it just looked sold out | |||
| SO1969 Citizen Username: Bklyn1969 Post Number: 306 Registered: 7-2004 |
I was using $13,000 that I believe Mark Rosner used at a BOT meeting, if that was not his number, it was very close - I really thought you'd inadvertently dropped the zero.* I agree that the condition of village hall is bad. Perhaps the worst neglect of any S.O. Township building currently in use. Given the historic significance and aesthetic appeal of the structure, it is tantamount to criminal neglect. How bad was it in the early 90s when the current regime came to power? I don't know. It doesn't look like they've done much to prevent further decay. Why? Well, if you let something get really bad, then you have a much bigger cost to fix it. As I understand it, a consultant is producing a report to advise on capital needs of village hall, library, etc. This may have been completed recently. Where does this lead? More bonding (I think some bonds were already done for these projects)and bigger projects to "bid" out. My question would be, why did they execute the contract to fabricate Tau before they knew how much the Village Hall and Library repairs would cost? It is just blatant disregard for the taxpayers' checkbooks. Actually, a much bigger question would be why did they do a long list of projects (SOPAC and Tau are at the forefront of my mind) before tending to this important symbol and beautiful piece of public art? I agree with your earlier post in that the cost of bad deal making and give aways is more than the sculpture, a lot more. In fact, if they could be recouped, they would probably pay for Tau, Village Hall, the library, and many other things. * This is not the focus of my argument, I was trying to clear up what was an understatement of the cost. That said, the real number is probably north of $14K. Don't forget you have to repay principal, not just interest. For those wanting more detail, read on: The escalating coupons affect the bond owner - the interest they're receiving is based on which maturity they own - but the cost to the borrower is, roughly speaking, the weighted rate based on all outstanding bonds. Year 1 you pay 2% on your early maturity, but you're also paying 6% on your long dated bonds (I think the actual rate on a recent SO deal is something in the low 4s on a "weighted" basis). A typical deal has a level combined P&I payment. If you use a mortgage calculator (which understates interest cost because it amortizes principal more frequently than a muni)over 30 years, using 4.0%, you get payments higher than $14k per annum. | |||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 600 Registered: 1-2004  |
SO1969, you are forgetting the Old Stone House a building owned by the Village that was left to disrepair. We have now allocated $500,000 for just the stabilization (fix the roof, cover the windows and doors - not functional, that will costs millions). The monies are from the Open Space Trust Fund - $80,000 (your taxes), recently approved bonding - $260,000 (your tax dollars), and a Historical Society grant - $155,000. | |||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 655 Registered: 6-2005 |
And what about the EIES buidling on Scotland Rd? Doesn't the town own that? The windows are rotting and the stonework has holes in it. There is also the skatehouse in the park which could require restoration, rather than it being used as a storage shed. And of course, there are the schools. While not the same fiscal pot, it still comes from our taxes, and I would rather the schools be fixed up than a scultpure put up. Which do you think would have greater impact on our village and its property values? | |||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 345 Registered: 5-2005 |
FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY... The BOT seem to be sitting down quietly and letting the TSP take the flack on this. Yes, the TSP asked for money. We will never know the full goings-on with this, although I for one would like to know, but the TSP do not run our town. The TSP do not decide where the money goes, the BOT do. They should look long and hard at our town. Some read MOL and some "say" they don't, but i'm sure they have people telling them what's being posted. This isn't their money, this town isn't their pet project to play with one day and "pretty up", only to discard the next. If this is the way any of them feel then I will buy them a lego set and ask that that they leave our real town alone. $250K is a drop in the ocean for what is needed to fix the state of our town, BUT IT'S A START. I'm not going over again all the buildings being left to fall apart which will cost so much more to fix than if we had maintained them as we went along, or the state of our awful water, or the state of our infrasctucture that needs desperate repair, we all know this. Is the problem that they got caught and can't admit that at this time it was the wrong thing to do? Is that it? To all of you, if that is the way you feel, then what's the worst that can happen by you standing up and saying you were wrong? What's the worst that can happen by you saying that the TOWN needs fixing. A solid town is what will bring people and dollars here. I think a couple of the Trustees said that they have to juggle work, commutes etc to attend meetings. We KNOW that is true, we all have people who work elsewhere and it does take up a chunk of their time, THIS, along with having to look after children is why a great many residents in town don't/can't make the meetings. Don't believe for one minute that the only people who care are those that attend your meetings. Why don't you split up the town and go door to door, or stand outside the station or Starbucks for a couple of Saturdays and ask for your residents opinions on how the town is running, how the town is looking, and then based on their answers, ask them how they feel about their tax dollars being used for Tau... If you can't face walking door to door, or don't want to stand outside Starbucks, then take the easy route, stand outside the schools, you will mostly only have mothers to deal with................ Second thoughts, then you'd really get told.... | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4094 Registered: 5-2001  |
I have now posted in seperate sub-threads above copies of the Contract to fabricate the sculpture and the PO for landscaping design for the sculpture, so people can see the financial ramifications of this disastrous project. Perhaps the author of the www.notaxesfortau.com site would want to add these documents to that site, as well. | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4116 Registered: 5-2001 |
Another good Letter to the Editor in today's News Record against the irresponsible use of tax dollars for Tau. | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4145 Registered: 5-2001 |
I went to the Library today to see the News Record and was SHOCKED at how sweltering it is in there. So, not only does the roof leak when it rain, the books, patrons and employees must be subjected to intensely uncomfortable HEAT. Why is THIS not at the top of the BOT priority list? (instead of TAU) Perhaps everyone can contact the BOT at: wcalabrese@southorange.org mrosner@southorange.org arosen@southorange.org ataylor@southorange.org edevaris@southorange.org sjennings@southorange.org tmooreabrams@southorange.org | |||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 3344 Registered: 9-2003 |
Don't get so sidetracked with the other issues that you lose your focus on this one. The TAU "money pocket" cannot be spent on the library, the town hall or anything else (other than the sidewalks and roads under which the funding for TAU is buried). It is my understanding that a study was or is being performed on both the library and town hall to identify all items in need of repair. It is not fiscally responsible to repair one thing if another faulty issue is going to damage it. But.. that study is overdue... the questions to the board should be. What was the result of the study? You knew this was coming so how have you budgeted for the identified issues? and When will repairs begin? | |||
| Parkingsux Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 428 Registered: 6-2005  |
the issues have been ongoing for years. they are managerially and fiscally irresponsible. nuff sayid. | |||
| FlyingSpaghettiMonst Citizen Username: Noodlyappendage Post Number: 164 Registered: 11-2005  |
So, S.O. Lady perhaps a new thread should be started about the Library. Just went by and it appears that the upsairs is closed. Why I ask? | |||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese  Post Number: 1587 Registered: 7-2004  |
Flying thing, maybe you can answer the question for us due to your inside knowledge of the SO library. | |||
| Nuff Sayid Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 429 Registered: 6-2005 |
It has a roof that leaks and a failed HVAC system for at least two years and counting. | |||
| FlyingSpaghettiMonst Citizen Username: Noodlyappendage Post Number: 165 Registered: 11-2005 |
Mayor, no inside info. Don't go inside the Library. too hot and often too wet. | |||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3512 Registered: 5-2001  |
Can't comment too much and certainly not offically, but the Library closed the upstairs section due to the heat. The Village and the Library administrations are working on an alternative a/c plan for the Library this summer un til a more permanent solution can be implemented. | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4146 Registered: 5-2001 |
Naked Librarians?  | |||
| bets Supporter Username: Bets Post Number: 23128 Registered: 6-2001  |
I hear Village Hall was shut down for the same reason. Can someone verify? | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4178 Registered: 5-2001 |
Yet another (unsolicited) Letter to the Editor in today's News Record. This time the person adreessed the outrage that the Library had to close due to lack of air conditioning, while the Trustees approved spending $250,000 of tax dollars for a sculpture. | |||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5324 Registered: 1-2004  |
Are the Tony Smith Sculpture Project group and the Gallery private organizations? | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4197 Registered: 5-2001 |
JTA, According to the website: FUNDING The programs at Pierro Gallery of South Orange are made possible in part by funds from New Jersey State Council of the Arts/Departmentof State, a partner agency of the National Endowment of the Arts and also by the Geraldine R. Dodge Foundation. Individual funding for PGOSO is through Friends of the Arts and private donations and other corporate sponsors. http://www.pierrogallery.org/AboutTheGallery.asp | |||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 607 Registered: 1-2004 |
It has been three months since the Purchase Order was issued for the six month fabrication of "Tau". When and where will the Gazebo be relocated? Will the the installation be coordinated with the opening of SOPAC? | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4206 Registered: 5-2001 |
The Tauites presented the BOT with a new color glossy handout tonight with a "rendering" that is even less out of scale than the last rendering they distributed. Not suprisingly, their material had NO MENTION OF THE $250,000 TAXPAYER COST OF THE PROJECT. I'll try to scan it & post it, when I get a chance. | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9862 Registered: 4-1997  |
 | |||
| vermontgolfer Supporter Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 462 Registered: 12-2002 |
MHD, Here is scan, it's the least I can do for all you've done.
BTW, check out the scale of Tau on the two renderings in the brochure | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4210 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dave - What a great idea for lawn signs! I may just price them out. VG - Thanks much for the scan. I am continually amazed how these people spend other people's money - a full page ad in the News Record a few weeks ago, and now profesionally printed full color glossy handouts. | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9865 Registered: 4-1997 |
I wouldn't want to detract from South Mountain Peace Action's mission (and copyright). Just having some fun with the BIG PICTURE the Tony Smith people don't see or don't want to acknowledge. | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4211 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dave, Good point. How about this?  | |||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3363 Registered: 5-2004  |
I'm curious where they get the money for the glossy handouts. Shouldn't those funds be used to pay for Tau? Given that the BoT has already approved whatever needs to be approved, the handouts would appear to be yet more poorly managed money associated with Tau. | |||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3364 Registered: 5-2004 |
Wow... I didn't realize how small Tau would be. The picture on the last page of the brochure has definitely changed my mind on this. It's obviously not that big, and will fit very nicely into the space. Look how it will be dwarfed by the tracks and the trees! | |||
| Lucy Supporter Username: Lucy Post Number: 4108 Registered: 5-2005  |
 | |||
| vermontgolfer Supporter Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 465 Registered: 12-2002 |
Rastro, But alas, look at the other rendering in the brochure to see a different perspective. Also take note of the following, "...the new site complements the historic train and fire stations that surround it." What a joke! | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4216 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rastro, Yeah, you would think something so small surely wouldn't cost $440,000! I agree with you about the poorly managed money. I guess when taxpayers are footing the bill for more than half of your pet project, it's easy to be careless with spending. When are you going to come to a meeting and speak your peace on this issue? | |||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 704 Registered: 4-2005  |
Let me just add a disclaimer that I haven't been able to read the entire thread yet (just getting caught up). The question is a simple cost-benefit. If we pull out of the contract not and terminate TAU it will cost the town nearly $100k. So do you lose out on all that money or let it happen since you're already knee deep due to the choices the BOT made. See where I'm coming from? I still think that regardless of the fact that the BOT will not go back on this lapse of judgement that the petition be turned in based on principle alone. It makes an important statement about priorities in this community. | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9876 Registered: 4-1997 |
Let's see. We can spend $90,000 and get nothing or we can spend $440,000 or so and get something that detracts from the entire downtown for the next 3 decades. I'm a pragmatist. I'll go with the $90k. | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4218 Registered: 5-2001 |
Sheena, A couple points - 1) I don't think anyone has even explored what the "penalty" for breaking the contract is. Although I doubt it would be the full $100k. 2) Even if the Village does not break the contract they absolutely should put the full financial burden on the vocal minority of people who want the sculpture so badly. They had 2 fundraisers in four years. The BOT should make them step-up and raise all the money as well as find an alternate location for it. Until either of these things happen, the petition drive and opposition will continue. | |||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 610 Registered: 1-2004 |
Just like the discussion last evening on the Old Stone House - we are now up to $475,000 to stabilize the building. It is my understanding that that will only last for 5 years - then what, millions to relocate some government function (Police) to justify the cost. The question was were we going to lose the grant if we didn't move forward immediately. The Grant was about $160,000, we will spend $240,000 from recent bonds and $100,000 from Open Space Trust Fund and then millions to then make the facility usable. Where is the analysis... "coming soon"! | |||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3366 Registered: 5-2004 |
Sheena, The costs to date are sunk. We cannot recoup them. However spending good money after bad is not good financial management. If I am buying something and put down a non-refundable deposit, then am not able to buy the item for some reason, am I better off just buying it anyway? Perhaps, if I can resell it. But since we cannot do this, maybe we can leave it in storage until a better location (and more transparent financing) is found. I would guess that if you asked the 6 trustees and the VP today how Tau is being funded, 3 or 4 would not be able to answer the question accurately. MHD, I'll show up when my "Rastro" suit is back from the cleaners. I want everyone to know who I am when I'm there...  (and how do you know I haven't been to one? | |||
| SO1969 Citizen Username: Bklyn1969 Post Number: 341 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dave, I'm on the same page. That said, there is a way out for the BOT members that would like to unify the community and make some effort to rectify this matter. Re-locate it to 76 SO Avenue or in the obelisk location in front of SOPAC. - The installation costs should be much lower - Don't have to tear out existing, extensive, and expensive improvements - Were both original sites considered by the folks looking for a site You just have tell the Smith Estate, sorry, we don't have the money OR the community support to install it at the Sloan Street location. | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4220 Registered: 5-2001 |
Read the Contract for fabrication: http://www.notaxesfortau.com/SculptureFabricationContract.pdf 1) Payment is due in installments, so my guess is that only $20,000 or $40,000 is already spent. 2) The contract states that the sculpture will be held at the factory without charge. So, Rastro is right....leave it in storage until a better location (and more transparent [private] financing) is found. |
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