| Author | Message | |||
     SO1969 Citizen Username: Bklyn1969 Post Number: 342 Registered: 7-2004 |
Re: Brochure The lies and deceit continue. MHD - not only is there no mention of taxpayer funding, it says: "In 2003, Jane Smith gave the Village the sculpture "Tau." This is a crystal clear statement. Ms. Smith did no such thing, as everyone reading this thread knows. Furthermore, under Funding Opportunities, there is no mention of funds needed for the sculpture itself or its installation. If a person had no background on this matter (ie, hadn't read this thread), she'd be left with the impression (given the implications in the information provided and by inference from the gift opportunities not listed)that Ms. Smith was footing the bill for all but the benches, the installation ceremony, ongoing maintenance and the programming. THIS IS NOT TRUE AND THESE FOLKS KNOW IT!!!! | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4223 Registered: 5-2001  |
SO1969, You are exactly right. However, the sculpture people have had no interest in FACTS from the beginning. There arguments all along have been about "prestige" and "hoards of tourists" without a single supporting study. If they wanted FACTS, they would put out something like this that has been handed out on Sloan Street.
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| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4288 Registered: 5-2001 |
According to Calabrese at the BOT Meeting tonight, the Sculpture people have always been planning to raise all the funds for TAU. However, that is completely untrue. According to this post: http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=3133&post=569245#POST5692 45
Ms. Arnedt also stated the same thing on tape during her televised show on Cable TV from last month. | |||
| campbell29 Citizen Username: Campbell29 Post Number: 504 Registered: 4-2002 |
Cool - so glad I am not going to ever, ever, ever be asked to subsidize Tau. I am also happy to notice that the village is pretty much unanimously in favor of this statue. Does anyone know what ever became of the petition that was presented door-to-door for signature against Tau? | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4290 Registered: 5-2001 |
Campbell, I assume your post above was sarcastic? The petitions will still be presented at the right time. Unfortunately, last night there were other issues that used up my "3 minute time limit". | |||
| vermontgolfer Supporter Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 475 Registered: 12-2002 |
MHD, Thanks for the clairifacation. I had a difficult time hearing most of what the BOT said last evening, since they either don't speak into the microphones or the sound at Village Hall is woeful, but I thought I heard the VP say that the Tau committee was footing the entire cost, when I know I've read and heard several times that wasn't their plan. | |||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 734 Registered: 4-2005  |
Last night was classic example of foot in mouth. I'm sure the TS Committee would love to know that they need to raise the entire amount and/or that they volunteered to do that from the start... I also loved Dr. Rosen's statements. It was jaw-on-ground for everyone in the audience. He basically said that their financial decision regarding TAU is entirely irrelevant to the current finances of the village and would have no impact if they had chosen a different route. So I know there's double speak - is there such thing as triple speak? quadruple speak? Last night was unfortunate... | |||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 629 Registered: 1-2006 |
I feel the benefits rushing to my brain. jd | |||
| srg227 Citizen Username: Srg227 Post Number: 48 Registered: 6-2004 |
Two questions/comments: 1. What incentive does the LPMAF have to raise enough funding to bridge the gap between the expected cost ($410,000) and the grant amount ($250,000) if the Village is on the hook for any shortfall? Why on earth would they undertake the efforts to raise that funding when they aren't ultimately responsible? This is like a father telling his college-age kid to get a summer job to help out with the tuition payments, but at the same time saying, ok, look, if you don't get a job, don't worry about it, I'll cover it. It sort of seems like the BOT is being unbelievably naive here if they think the LPMAF will do so (and that is as charitable as one can be...the alternative is that they're being disingenuous. Neither option is really that appealing). 2. If I read the history of this project correctly, it was first believed by the BOT that all of the cost would be covered by a grant, and only later did they discover that it would only partially be covered by the grant. Fine. People make erroneous assumptions. I'd rather they had dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's before signing off on it, which speaks more to incompetence than willful deceit, but it is what it is. HOWEVER, once it became clear that the initial assumption was erroneous, did no one at the BOT ask what it would cost to terminate the project (e.g., a cancellation fee)? No one entertained this idea? What explains the intransigence on the part of the BOT to at least visit this question? My guess is, either no one on the BOT wants to admit a mistake, or the BOT is concerned about being a defendant in a potential legal action for breach of contract. Maybe a bit of both. | |||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 621 Registered: 1-2004  |
SGR227: Your reference to grants in items 1&2 - "and the grant amount ($250,000) ...." these funds are not from a grant but rather a bond that your taxes pay for! | |||
| srg227 Citizen Username: Srg227 Post Number: 49 Registered: 6-2004 |
Howard: so it's even worse then. Awesome, just awesome. So amend my question to ask whether taxpayers are on the hook for $410,000, or just a mere $250,000. | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4305 Registered: 5-2001 |
srg, 1) The entire project cost is $410,000. 2) The Village Trustees have committed to pay $250,000 from tax dollars (without ever having a public hearing) 3) The Sculpture people have said they will raise $160,000. HOWEVER, after 4 years, they have only raised around $100,000 AND Calabrese has said that the Village taxpayers would be responsible for any fundraising shortfalls: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg7fok8sAwo In addition, none of the numbers above include the cost to move and re-site the gazebo at another location. (If the costs to site the gazebo are anywhere the costs to site the sculpture, it could be several hundred thousand dollars more) | |||
| srg227 Citizen Username: Srg227 Post Number: 50 Registered: 6-2004 |
MHD, thanks. But did anyone (on the BOT) ever hold discussions about scuttling this project, or did they just take the position that it's a done deal no matter what? second, did anyone consider simply dropping the sculpture on the gazebo? That would eliminate the gazebo-moving cost.  third, if we the taxpayers are on the hook for the shortfall for whatever the Sculpture people don't come up with, what happens if the project cost of $410,000 turns out to be low? (ex-gazebo-moving costs). | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4306 Registered: 5-2001 |
srg, I think the answers to all of your questions are pretty self-evident. | |||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 632 Registered: 1-2006 |
When the public became a nuisance earlier this year, by questioning the expenditure, etc., the board voted, in March, approval of a contract for the metal to be bent. until then, we had no commitments which were unalterable. so, The Incomplete Village government rushed through a vote when it seemed the public was on to them. Elections next Spring. jd | |||
| crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 708 Registered: 1-2004 |
joel dranove- you should run. | |||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 3379 Registered: 9-2003 |
joel - we could still cut our losses, pay the $86,000 fabrication fee out of the Tony Smith Committee funds and store it (fabricator will keep it at no charge) until a more reasonable funding source is secured. | |||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 634 Registered: 1-2006 |
Right. And I mentioned that earlier this year, before the Board rushed a vote to commit us to "art." We can replace the wannabe Three Stooges, and their counsel, (not ours), in the next election. jd | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4341 Registered: 5-2001 |
Received a hilarious mailing today from the sculpture people attempting to explain the "serious consequences of halting the Tony Smith Sculpture Project". It actually claims that "South Orange's reputation, our downtown, our ability to attract viable business and our property values may suffer" if this project is stopped.  It goes on to list a "waste of taxpayer money", "public embarassment" and an "inadequate downtown site" and I honestly thought the letter was making the correct argument AGAINST the use of tax dollars for this project. Under "Public Embarassment", it says that if the NJN documentary is tabled "we'll look like the town that couldn't shoot straight". I thought Shop Rite, Beifus and Sayid already did that for us. I'll try to scan some of this stuff in, but just thought you might want to know this was out there. P.S. I wonder whether our tax dollars went to fund this mailing? | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave  Post Number: 10028 Registered: 4-1997  |
The attorney representing the citizens of South Orange needs to be investigated by Christopher Christie (also an SHU alumni (Christie)) for misfeasance. Also, at this time I'm publically asking Eric DeVaris for intervention and some more scrutiny over the contractual relations with the Tony Smith estate. This shouldn't mean "being against" the art or the endeavor to bring it to SO, but simply to give the issue and public expense the public airing it deserves and was lost due to the lies of Village Administrator John Gross (who is married to former Trustee Mary Theroux). The promise of Open governent requires it. | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10032 Registered: 4-1997 |
The Tony Smith mailing arrived today along with our quarterly tax notice. This type of timing can't be bought (so to speak). Eric, please stand up for what's right. You don't have to be against the Tony Smith project to demand open and honest debate. I'll still support you however you decide, but this is my opinion. At this time I feel the truth has been compromised. MHD, when can I join you next in town collecting signatures? | |||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1309 Registered: 5-2003 |
We got two of those mailings, because both my husband and I signed the petition. This town is already sufficiently embarrassed by the behavior of our public officials that quashing the tau wouldn't make a difference--even if that were true. | |||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 1697 Registered: 5-2005  |
My Husband and I both got a letter. Mine was addressed correctly. My Husbands was addressed incorrectly - wrong house number, but our mailman delivered it to us. I decided to check the petition... when he signed and left a comment he didn't put the number of our houset, just the street name. The woman who signed above him put her house number and happens to live on the same street as us. It is obvious that these letters were targeted to the people who had signed the petition, there is no other way for his name to be associated with that number in our street. This is shameful. This is reaching new lows, and it should definately be looked into. There should be full and completed debate so that people can hear both sides. I also find is strange per the letter, how one highlighted title says.. "WASTE OF TAXPAYERS MONEY....The town has contracts for nearly $200,000 of the $250,000 designated for the sculpture project...." I find it strange how it's the town on the hook for the contracts and not the TSP - the town is not its personal bank, and secondly, this letter was signed and dated June 29th 2006, the statement that the town has designated $250,000 for the sculpture project goes totally against the statement made on June 26th by our Village Preident who said that the TSP were intending to fund this totally themselves... | |||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 739 Registered: 4-2005 |
Can someone scan the mailer and post it here? | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10034 Registered: 4-1997 |
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| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10035 Registered: 4-1997 |
Not how I would have defended it, but then again I have issues with lying to people. Notice, for example, the $440,000 total project cost is conveniently left out, as are ongoing costs, contractual requirements and liability issues that Ed Matthews in his grand ineptness is leaving citizens open to, the lies of John Gross regarding how it was going to be funded, etc. Just goes to show even arts aficionados enjoy some similarities to the Bush administration. War is peace. Up is down. Spending more is spending less, etc. | |||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3624 Registered: 5-2001  |
It appears to me that Alan Holzman,tookthe list of signers from a publicly posted petition and then send his own letter to the signers explaining his take on Tau. No where does it say that this letter was sent or funded by the Village or the Tau Committee. Call me naive, but I see a resident who has a difference of opinion with another group of residents, and putting his money where his mouth is, decided to send a letter to those individuals who disagree with him. And if anyone is upset that he used their names and addresses from the on-line petition, if you didn't want to be recognized and were embarrased by support of the petition, you should of used a phony name. Otherwise you identity is available for public use. | |||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1310 Registered: 5-2003 |
The tauists must be worried. Otherwise they wouldn't have sent this. | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10036 Registered: 4-1997 |
LL- I don't think that's the issue. It's fine for the sculpture committee to send the mailing and it's equally fine to discuss it here. The more people discuss it, the better, IMHO. The lack of facts and open debate has been the problem from day one, thanks in most part to Gross and Matthews, who are not only inept, but have bad personalities. The former can be forgiven. | |||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5541 Registered: 1-2004  |
SRG One reason nobody on the BOT questions anything regarding Tau is our Village President and Eric are BOTH ON the Tony Smith Sculpture Committee. | |||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3628 Registered: 5-2001 |
But Dave, others do seems perturbed by the letter. Democracy demands the ability of both sides to get their points across.
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| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 1706 Registered: 5-2005 |
N-LL I agree with you, both sides should have been able to, and should continue to be able to get their points of view across. That is why I would have liked to have seen a broadcast debate or discussion with both sides in attendance letting all our residents know the entire facts. Maybe if this had been done, a lot of what has transpired could have been avoided/averted. I personally took the letter to be on behalf of, or at least with the approval of the TSP, as the envelope was an official one (or I took it to be such) as the return address is TONY SMITH SCULPTURE PROJECT A Lennie Pierro Memorial Arts Foundation Project 71 South Orange Avenue Box 335 South Orange, NJ 07079 "Holzman" was hand written above the Tony Smith Sculpture Project, the rest of the return address was obviously done by a printer with artwork. The information enclosed, with the exception of the letter is material that I have seen before, and that, with the other information that I have seen, read, discussed and otherwise absorbed, has led me to the opinion that I have. This is my opinion, not anyone elses, and it is up to all residents to learn as much as they can. I have said before both on this board and standing at the podium at a BOT meeting, that the world needs art in all forms, but that there is a time and a place and certainly if something is for the good of our village, I would have expected the village as a whole to have been involved, and I know that that has not been the case. | |||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3630 Registered: 5-2001 |
Having not seen the return address before, it now seems it might have been from the committee itself. But the information available in the online petition is open to all with internet access and the use of said info is not shameful or a new low or needing to be looked into. Whether of not Alan acted for the Committtee or on his own, what was sent out had every right to be disseminated. And as for the village as a whole to be involved, somehow getting 17,000 or so citizens to agree on anything might be a little dificult. And at what level should the whole town have to be polled? Obviously, you think for the Tau installation. What about the money spent on the flower installation at the pool this weekend? Library art displays? I'm not disagreeing . I'm trying to ascertain where and at what limit we need to get the entire Village's approval rather than the approval of the majority of our representative elected officals? | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10037 Registered: 4-1997 |
You left out the part where those elected to keep the public trust lied to the public. Let's fix that bit first, then we can worry about the logistics of having open public meetings. | |||
| Soparents Citizen Username: Soparents Post Number: 1707 Registered: 5-2005 |
There is no way you are ever going to get every resident to vote for/agree on anything... we know that! That being said, the first I had heard of Tau was probably about 3-4 months ago. I then asked friends of mine who are all across S.O. and one had heard of it, and that was because a friend of hers is a friend of Cheryl Arnedt and mentioned that Cheryl was very involved with a sculpture. N-LL the flowers at the pool, library art displays? They are not the issue, and again I say art in all forms is a necessary part of our lives, but you ask me right now, at this time in our village, with the needs of our village, if I would as a resident would like to see tax dollars spent on a work of art, or AT THIS TIME get our village into a good state, and then down the line perhaps look to this? I think you know my answer. If this had been put to the residents in a way that we could honour a Son of South Orange and erect a licensed work of art, and the cost would be "X" and there would be fund raisers etc, and donations would be most welcome, believe me, my cheque book would have been opened immediately. | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4342 Registered: 5-2001 |
SOParents - You are absolutely right that there should have been a real debate on this issue. In fact, Trustee Rosen had actually scheduled one to be taped this past Tuesday - a televised debate between myself and other people who are opposed to the spending of tax dollars on this sculpture versus people who want to spend our tax dollars on this sculpture. It was even announced at the last Neighborhood Meeting: http://www.southorange.org/minutes/2006/06-21-06sm.pdf Monday night (the night before the taping) I was informed by Trustee Rosen that NOBODY from the Sculpture Committee wanted to participate in the debate. Why? To everyone else who signed the online petition - I would like to personally apologize that you were contacted via US Mail today after you made your information public. I have submitted a request to the Petition moderators to supress the display of addresses so this will not happen again. I will also try to contact as many of the signers directly to let them know what happened and to rebut the additional misleading information that was presented in the mailing. | |||
| Lizziecat Citizen Username: Lizziecat Post Number: 1311 Registered: 5-2003 |
MHD, No need to apologize. It was only a letter, after all, and rather a hoot, I thought. At least, it's the beginning of a debate (maybe), and I really do think that the tauists must be a bit worried to have sent it at all. | |||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 702 Registered: 6-2005 |
According to what I remember, the BOT's had to vote to proceed with the fabrication contract (which was about $85,000 if memory serves me, and which they voted for unanimously). I don't recall any vote to proceed with contracts for the balance of the $200,000 the letter mentions. Wouldn't a similar vote be required? And if not, why not? | |||
| noracoombs Citizen Username: Noracoombs Post Number: 157 Registered: 8-2002 |
SOParents: Very well put! | |||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4343 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanks, Lizzie. Though I do feel bad that people were "spammed" (is that the proper word for unwanted US mail, too?) jayjay, My GUESS is that the letter was referring to the following: July 11, 2005 BOT Meeting: Contract for Consulting Services for Site Improvements for the Tony Smith Sculpture – Village Administrator, John Gross advised that there will be a resolution at the July 25th Regular Meeting awarding the contract for professional services for the Tony Smith sculpture layout on the square. http://www.southorange.org/minutes/2005/07-11-05CA.pdf July 25, 2005 BOT Meeting: #215-05- Resolution to Engage the Professional Services of SESI Consulting Engineers to Perform Engineering and Landscape Architecture Services for the Design of Site Improvements for the Tony Smith Sculpture. http://www.southorange.org/minutes/2005/07-25-05RM.pdf However, last July EVERYONE was under the impression the money was coming from a Grant. The thing that baffles me about the letter is this - if they were going to spend money for a mailing, wouldn't they be better served with a FUNDRAISING LETTER instead of trying to defend their project to a small subset of people who have actually signed the petition? |
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