| Author | Message | ||
     MittenReckitt Citizen Username: Mittenreckitt Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2006 |
Hypothesis: South Orange property values and overall perceptions are negatively impacted by the word "Orange" in the name. Let's face it, East Orange and Orange have some baggage and why else would Maplewood property values be higher given the fact that the towns: * Have a shared school district * Are virtually equi-distant from NYC and are on the Mid-Town Direct * Have an "ok" side of town as well as a "better" side of town So, again, the only thing I can think of is that Maplewood does not carry the negative "equity" in it's name that S.Orange does. I'll acknowledge the Maplewood downtown is much quainter than the S.Orange downtown, but if you're not in walking distance, what's the difference - you can drive to either one. Anyone have heart out there for attempting to change the name? How difficult do you think it would be? Just a thought... | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1367 Registered: 7-2005  |
I agree. When I'm down at school people ask me..."South Orange? Is that one of the bad ones?". | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 2043 Registered: 8-2002 |
Oh we've been through this before on MOL -- in fact, every few months or so  As I recall options included -- East Short Hills (and others similar) West Maplewood (and variations) East Livingston Upper Orange etc oddly enough nothing like North Newark, West Irvington, or South Union ever came up. Anything more creative? Pete | ||
| Soparents Supporter Username: Soparents Post Number: 1818 Registered: 5-2005  |
Oak Mountain South Mountain (This is always mentioned) Mountain View Mount Beifus  | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1891 Registered: 12-2003  |
"South Orange property values and overall perceptions are negatively impacted by the word "Orange" in the name." First of all, your premise is absurd. An extremely average, smallish house in South Orange costs half a million dollars today, and that same house cost half as much five or six years ago. "Let's face it, East Orange and Orange have some baggage and why else would Maplewood property values be higher" Again, no evidence to back this up. When we bought our house two years ago, there was absolutely no difference between Maplewood, South Orange, and West Orange prices for comparable property/neighborhood. Taxes were a wildly mixed bag. I'd also imagine that when it comes to which town has the most expensive neighborhood, South Orange wins with Montrose. | ||
| Soparents Supporter Username: Soparents Post Number: 1819 Registered: 5-2005 |
cmontburns is right though, I loved our house, and the parks, and scenery, reservation etc and midtown direct. I was also excited by the supermarkets etc coming soon but that is another discussion. The word "Orange" didn't and wouldn't, sway me one way or another, and friends had told me that SO was good, it was Orange, and East Orange to avoid. | ||
| red_alert Citizen Username: Red_alert Post Number: 298 Registered: 3-2005 |
This was a topic about a year ago. Some other town name suggestions: Upper Vailsburg West Irvington Lower Maplewood Newark Heights I also discount the association with East Orange and Orange name. That's a cop out. All someone has to see when the come to down is vacant storefronts, grafitti at the train station, little to no services compared to the neighboring towns and declining school ratings. 10k, 20k, 30k+ in annual taxes for this??? That's not because of East Orange and Orange. | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 3597 Registered: 5-2001 |
I've always heard that, "on average", South Orange has higher property values than Maplewood. | ||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3642 Registered: 5-2001  |
Yes, Sac and our school taxes are also higher. There was a huge movement several years ago to rename South Orange South Mountain, NJ. Some thought it a good idea, others thought it racist. But whatever,the idea didn't have legs. Change the name, merge with Maplewood, all ideas that don't seem to have a lot of support. South Orange feels different from Maplewood, and I mean that in a good way. And besides, no passport is needed to travel between towns.  | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15251 Registered: 10-2001  |
Why don't you just call it "Coming Soon" | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5570 Registered: 10-1999  |
The "South Orange name change" movement pops up every few years. I think it's silly, and there is no evidence to support the positions in favor of changing the name. BUT - As I have said here before, the only reasonable choice for a new name is - "Upper Maplewood" That sounds classy, doesn't it? | ||
| MittenReckitt Citizen Username: Mittenreckitt Post Number: 65 Registered: 4-2006 |
Of course there's no "hard" evidence, but if this has come up so many times in the past, doesn't that lend some support for the possibility? Where there's smoke there's usually fire. I moved here a couple of years ago and looked at dozens of homes in both towns. I noticed the difference and my realtor was overt about telling me I could get a little more for my money here. We're not talking major gaps here, but there was a difference. Regarding Upper Maplewood, I think it's a slap in the face to Maplewood, as Upper usually connotes a better section of the town. Why did the South Mountain name lose steam? Sounds good to me. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro  Post Number: 3490 Registered: 5-2004  |
More for your money in South Orange? I think you got snowed. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5574 Registered: 10-1999 |
"Regarding Upper Maplewood, I think it's a slap in the face to Maplewood, as Upper usually connotes a better section of the town."To the contrary, as clearly this would be an attempt (a la "Upper Montclair") to take a well-respected name and add a little faux panache. Did I spell those right? | ||
| Elaine Harris Citizen Username: Elaineharris Post Number: 197 Registered: 12-2004 |
NoHero: As in "L'il Abner," it reminds me of "Upper Slobovia" and "Lower Slobovia." | ||
| MittenReckitt Citizen Username: Mittenreckitt Post Number: 66 Registered: 4-2006 |
I can buy that....hey, you don't sell the steak, you sell the sizzle! | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 698 Registered: 10-2005  |
I'm against it. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1644 Registered: 3-2002 |
I think that it would make us a joke if we changed our name rather than working on our actual issues as a town. This is a super town, but the issues that need solving will not be solved by spending money on new signs and stationary. | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 1300 Registered: 1-2006  |
susan1014, You speak the truth. J.B. | ||
| Illuminated Radish Citizen Username: Umoja Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2006 |
Who owns the most land in South Orange? It's not Beifus suprsingly. It's Seton Hall. Has anyone taken into consideration that their is a huge tax exempt entity occupying a huge amount of land in South Orange? Does anyone realize alot of apartments in South Orange are Seton Hall DORMS? Could that explain anything? | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 742 Registered: 4-2005  |
There's two off-campus residence halls - Ora Manor and Turrell. SHU pays PILOTS on both of these as well as ALL off-campus properties. | ||
| Jersey_Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 1302 Registered: 1-2006 |
Sheena, don't you mean, "there are." Is this what they teach at Seton Hall? J.B. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 743 Registered: 4-2005 |
No need for the sarcasm J.B. I would have been just as receptive to a friendly grammar fix  | ||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 3399 Registered: 9-2003 |
hmmm JB corrects Sheena's grammer, but not the Radish's? He only picks on stu.... no, wait. I believe Ms Sheena is a graduate! Congrats! What's on your horizon? (Thread drift acknowledged). Back to topic: South Seton, Seton Hill - ok just kidding Southwood? | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 4779 Registered: 5-2001  |
grammar THere are discussions about shared services with South Orange. If we really want to save $$, we will, as 2 communities, seriously consider the ramifications of becoming one (combined police, rec, fire, gov). If we become one community, then names must be discussed. I propose Mapl and So Orange become South Orange Township (like it used to be) but we keep two zipcodes and Maplewood is still called Maplewood Village and South ORange be called South Orange (or some name that you guys come up with). | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12025 Registered: 5-2001 |
According to posts here in the past Seton Hall pays about $150,000 to South Orange on a voluntary basis. I don't believe this is a PILOT. The amount is a fraction of the taxes that would be collected based on the assessments for the properties. If you compare the size of the SO and MW police and fire departments in relationship to the population (excluding Seton Hall) having Seton Hall in the village is a very expensive proposistion. | ||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3644 Registered: 5-2001 |
Compare SHU to this from the Princeton Newsletter
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| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5577 Registered: 10-1999 |
Kind of hard to compare the two, without knowing how much more land Princeton owns, or how many more off-campus properties are owned by Princeton, when compared to Seton Hall. The article mentions all the faculty housing, which Princeton owns and pays some of the taxes on. The people I know here who are or were on the Seton Hall faculty, own their own residences here and pay their own property taxes. | ||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 3401 Registered: 9-2003 |
To attempt to compare Princeton, with its 500 acre campus and the 4th largest endowment chest in the US to SHU with its 50+ acres and probably not a very large endowment is a little silly. Would I like to see them do a bit more than they do? Sure. But don't forget that they already do much more than they are obliged to do. | ||
| Shanabana Citizen Username: Shanabana Post Number: 706 Registered: 10-2005 |
This whole issue gives me the creeps. Oh, the pathogenic Other oranges!! They're giving us cooties!!! (And remember, in socio-political terms, historically, "cooties" translates as "less-moolah") Let's just call ourselves Yuppie Orange, or No-Ghetto Orange! Maybe that would get your message across... BTW, isn't West Orange the largest, and they have quite a few 1.000,000+ homes... | ||
| Sheena Collum Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 744 Registered: 4-2005 |
Thanks SoOrLady (you reminded me to change my name,lol - finishing my MPA and then law school). I think the SHU questions have been discussed ad nauseum on these boards - some may consider doing a search on it but it is a PILOT. I also agree there's no basis for comparison other than they're both schools... | ||
| Illuminated Radish Citizen Username: Umoja Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2006 |
Seton Hall is a Catholic school. It makes it tax exempt as far as I know, being that it's a religious institution. I don't know this for a fact, but if you look at most colleges they tend to pull down property values in the surrounding town. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5578 Registered: 10-1999 |
Seton Hall University is tax exempt because the New Jersey Constitution provides that the property of educational institutions is exempt from property taxes (Article VIII, Section I, Paragraph 2). It's the same exemption enjoyed by Princeton University, Drew University, Fairleigh Dickinson, Rider University, and Stevens Institute (all private universities). Being a Catholic institution has nothing to do with it. | ||
| Paddy Citizen Username: Paddy Post Number: 205 Registered: 5-2001 |
Just don't call us Shelbyville. That place sucks. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3497 Registered: 5-2004 |
How about River City? | ||
| Illuminated Radish Citizen Username: Umoja Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2006 |
Nohero, I stand corrected. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 647 Registered: 1-2006 |
Mount Beifus/Calabreseville jd | ||
| Steve Hickson Citizen Username: Shickson Post Number: 46 Registered: 4-2006  |
Here's some thoughts from a semi-professional marketer: 1. Re-Branding involves much more than simply changing a name---it includes every touchpoint---such as what consumers (residents/non-residents) and businesses (SO local/potential commercial ventures and investors) see when they walk down South Orange Avenue, taste when they visit our local restaurants, experience when they shop in one of our retail stores or supermarkets or lackthereof, even how they are treated when they ask a local resident for directions---all of these things and and more affect our hometown brand---a brand is really a collection of experiences---not just a name. 2. There is no doubt that the association with "The Oranges" brings the South Orange brand down a few pegs---it's simply a fact---how many times have we all heard "is that one of the good Oranges or bad Oranges?"---or "remind me which ones are the good Oranges?"---additionally, our proximity to Newark and Irvington does not build the brand---but, we obviously can't up and move an entire town. 3. On the positive side, once exposed to South Orange---I think its safe to say that a lot of folks are pleasantly surprised---I know I was when my late wife and I first moved here from NYC. Nice housing stock, great commute, fun places to go eat/drink, nice parks, cool people, home of Seton Hall, nice surrounding towns---all of these things associated with the South Orange name and inherent in the South Orange "experience" are terrific. 4. The answer is NOT changing the name---the answer is making South Orange a better South Orange---via a real vision and plan for the town, revitalizing the business district, filling our empty lots with vital businesses, better more upmarket retail, appropriate parking, nice housing and continued improvement of our parks---ultimately the experience of our town is what fuels the brand---make the town better and deliver a better experience you have a stronger brand---simply changing the name without fixing what's broken won't work. | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 2050 Registered: 8-2002 |
Steve -- most reasonable answer so far! That said, I'd go with "South Short Hills" just to irk the neighbors... I recall when Matawan Twp became Aberdeen -- I wonder whether housing prices went up/down -- or ultimately if it really mattered! Changing our town's name won't change the neighboring towns, isn't more likely to make our propoerty values go up, and certainly won't cure our town's redevelopment pains. In contrast to "rebranding," I'd say what we need to do is far more work, perhaps more pain, and a bit unsettling... but in my 5 years living here -- other than SOPAC, there has been NO positive change in our downtown. (Sloan St was done more than 5 years ago). SO needs not only a "new vision" but new leadership. Pete | ||
| crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 726 Registered: 1-2004 |
That would be EAST Short Hills  |
