| Author | Message | ||
     Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 611 Registered: 1-2004  |
Not if they have been promised that there will be significant change in the downtown residence density that commute to NYC via NJT (Sayad Plaza, Beifus Condo's, Vose Condo's, Sloan Street Condo's, Valley Street Condo's, Church Street Condo's..........) and supported by tax relief pilots. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 590 Registered: 1-2006 |
Perceptive, oh moustachioed one. jd | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4271 Registered: 5-2001  |
From today's News-Record: Gourmet grocer coming to village By Philip Sean Curran, Staff Writer Wednesday, June 21, 2006 6:59 PM EDT SOUTH ORANGE, NJ - A New York-based chain of gourmet supermarkets will open a new store in South Orange later this year. Garden of Eden Gourmet Markets will go into the old ShopRite site that fronts on South Orange Avenue. Village administrator John O. Gross said Garden of Eden has told village officials it plans to be open for business later this year, sometime around Thanksgiving or Christmas. A spokesman for Garden of Eden could not be reached for comment on Monday. Garden of Eden has its corporate headquarters in Brooklyn, N.Y. On its Web site, the company boasts that its stores have hundreds of imported and domestic cheeses, fresh baked goods, homemade soups and varieties of meat, seafood and natural and organic products. Garden of Eden has stores in New York City, according to its Web site. Gross said it would open a new store in Hoboken, making South Orange its second location in New Jersey. Gross declined to speculate how many jobs the new supermarket will bring to South Orange. The new supermarket is a piece of a larger puzzle village officials have for that section of town. They have a contract to sell approximately 1.5 acres, including the supermarket site, to Livingston-based developer Sterling Properties for $2.7 million, Gross said. “I think we’re going to close on it relatively soon ... within the next 60 or 90 days,” said Edwin R. Matthews, village attorney. “That’s what we anticipate.” Aside from the supermarket, Sterling plans to build 80 luxury condominiums and a parking deck on Vose Avenue. A spokesman for Sterling could not be reached for comment Monday. Sterling and the village have an agreement to allow Sterling to make direct payments to the village rather than pay property taxes. The payment in lieu of taxes will start off at $610,000 and escalate over time, Gross said. The PILOT is a multi-year agreement. I particularly enjoyed:
which sounded very similar to what we heard back in OCTOBER 2005
http://www.southorange.org/minutes/2005/10-24-05RM.pdf | ||
| Pippi Supporter Username: Pippi Post Number: 2436 Registered: 8-2003  |
I wonder if the News Record article is based on fact, or based on the item in the "Gaslight". Y'know, some reporter read it in the Gaslight and decided to write an article.... | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 603 Registered: 1-2006 |
Closings after contracts, as night follows day. So, please let us know if a contract has been signed, and make it public. jd | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 754 Registered: 4-2006 |
For an upper-income town the only good pilot is the one that flys the plane. Nuff-said. | ||
| campbell29 Citizen Username: Campbell29 Post Number: 494 Registered: 4-2002 |
But we're an upper income town that is willing to put up with giant holes in the ground for years, a gourmet super market that has been "Coming Soon" for about 6 years, a board of trustees who feels perfectly comfortable foisting a giant $500k sculpture on the residents, and water that is foul tasting and most likely borderline safe to drink. So, I don't know why people suddenly would become upset that now we are expected to subsidize any sort of development we might be lucky enough to actually get. After all, we continue to elect these clueless wonders, who are obviously incompetent and more concerned about stuff like "new demographics" than actually getting somethine done. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 604 Registered: 1-2006 |
two types of clueless wonders, the incompetent and the newbies. perfect together. jd | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5437 Registered: 1-2004  |
My mom and I had a big disagreement over this last night. I had told my mom and sister Wednesday night we wouldn't be getting a market anytime soon. So, guess what she says when she sees yesterday's Snooze Wreckered? I told her that article means nothing and she shouldn't hold her breath. "You're so negative," she says! "NO!!! You just don't want to see the truth!" Then she told me I spend too much time on MOL and goes into a hussy fit about how bad MOL is! Told my mom not to hold her breath. That they will still be talking about the 'Coming Soon Market,' this time next year!  | ||
| Pippi Supporter Username: Pippi Post Number: 2450 Registered: 8-2003 |
I had an opportunity to purchase produce in the Garden of Eden on 23rd St. last night. Great produce at surprising very good prices (for example, a pound of strawberries for $1.99) Took a stroll around the store and thought "Yeah, I could really go for one of these in SO!" I am crossing my fingers this isn't a pipe dream | ||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2006 |
Let me pose the obvious question to the "Just the Aunt" realists. (While I agree with her mom) If we're giving away huge tax incentives... And we're this "upper-Income" town... Why are businesses so reluctant to set up shop here? and Why do you doubt their desire to come to South Orange? And I don't want to hear incompetent leaders, because they are the ones giving out the PILOTS. We take the hit for that, and I guess we all wouldn't mind the tax burden as much - if it showed results. | ||
| Mary32 Citizen Username: Mary32 Post Number: 33 Registered: 3-2006 |
Cali, What are you trying to say??????? Can you be a little clear??????? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 609 Registered: 1-2006 |
Why not ask them? Guessing at private deals, or the incentives to hold out for more, or the misrepresentations of one side to the other, or both, is speculation. What is not speculative is the egregious mess that is Calabrese, Mathews, Rosen, Taylor, and Gross's legacy. jd | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 610 Registered: 1-2006 |
I was told at a November 2005 BOT meeting I attended that the only reason the market was not under construction was because Verizon had to move some wires. Imagine that, wires. Told by the Village Administrator, seconded by MRosner. Imagine dealing with such spoorage on a daily basis, while trying to develop downtown. | ||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2006 |
jd - legacy implies the past. This is clearly not the case. To that effect, mary32, I'm trying to understand why people, like JTA, unilaterally dismiss any notion of a store opening, or a condo going up. My feeling is that there is no good answer. I also believe the source of this jilted mantra is precedent, which jd esq. can give us a quick lesson on. I have more GLOBAL theories I can expound on, it the board requests. But for now, I'd just want to understand the other side's thinking. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4276 Registered: 5-2001 |
You REALLY don't want someone to compile a list of ALL the times we have been told by Calabrese that it is "Coming Soon", do you? Just last week, he stated construction would start on June 14. Surprise, Suprise....that didn't happen either. | ||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 36 Registered: 4-2006 |
No, I don't. Please don't waste the time doing that awful task. But I will paraphrase my first question for you: Why do you (plural) believe "Coming Soon" does not turn into "Grand Opening"? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4278 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think George Bush said it best: "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/multimedia/foolbush.mov  | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 729 Registered: 4-2005  |
Cali6buff - this is a hopeful yet realistic group. If the market will open on schedule than wonderful, we'd all love to see it. However, history tends to repeat itself and the past results of development in South Orange have been quite consistent that things are 'coming soon'. I firmly believe that if you're not 100% sure you can make a deadline - you don't tell people. You simply say "we're not sure as of yet... there are a lot of variables, etc." Someone has to take accountability for what has been going on... What the residents have experienced is basically a contemporary "the VP who cried market". So yes, many skeptics but rightfully so, don't you think? | ||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2006 |
Last thing first. In my experience, the only time you're 100% sure of hitting a deadline is 5 minutes before the ribbon cutting cerimony. You have to estimate when you think something will get done. If you try that in the business world, you'll get crushed. I feel the skeptic’s pain. But one thing I'm looking for is the opinions of the skeptics as to what the problem is. Why can't we, or the BOT, or anyone seal the deal? | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1810 Registered: 3-2003 |
The BOT has never imposed a financial disincentive if the designated redeveloper doesn't meet certain milestones. This could be done by requiring the developers to post a bond which would be forfeited if certain milestones weren't met. | ||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2006 |
I don't think that's such a good idea. I would consider that a disincentive to even attempt to open a business in South Orange. Try selling, "If something goes wrong, we keep your money." Something always goes wrong. This here world just ain't that predictable or perfect. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1811 Registered: 3-2003 |
But that's the reason developers have been able to just drag things out. Forfeiture of bonds is always contested - the developer argues that the delay was beyond its control. If the developer can convince the court, the developer doesn't forfeit the bond. The reason that things have dragged on so long in South Orange (Shoprite, Beifus, Saiyd) is that the developer has never had to face any kind of financial penalty. I actually think that the Garden of Eden will be a go - not in time for Pippi's cravings (congragulations Pippi and Notehead) - but I am optimistic. Edited to add - I know you asked about the present, and not what happened in the past, but one of the major things wrong with the way things were done in the past is that the named redevelopers weren't judged on their track record (because they had none.) | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4280 Registered: 5-2001 |
Cali - Just curious, what do you do in your professional life? You seem to have a very different view of the buisness world than I have experienced. | ||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2006 |
That sounds logical, and if it's a standard real estate/development practice, then I take back previos post. Is it standard? | ||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2006 |
Really? I'm guessing you are refering to my "deadline" comments. What is your experience like? Mine goes like this: I work in software development. I'm given a set of specs, and I say "It will take me 8 months." It's a guess. But I have to guess for resource, budget, and planning purposes. If I said, "I'm not sure as of yet... there are a lot of variables, etc." (Sheena), I'd get tossed from the building. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 730 Registered: 4-2005 |
I agree with Spitz  And really if it were one issue that continuously had problems, people would be more sympathetic to the cause. However, this is merely one aspect of development/redevelopment that has been a milestone to overcome. I think one of the biggest issues is parking. I think that once SOPAC is up, the market opens and there is a parking deck, there will be a great incentive for businesses to come to S.O. and there will be no need for PILOTS, etc. It's a matter of getting to that point. In the business world, I doubt anyone believes it's a good practice to make promises you can't keep and it's definitely not acceptable from our elected officials. And agree, sometimes there are natural occurences that cause setbacks and some issues are understandable - I think we're reasonable people. But there's a difference between a setback that was totally unavoidable and developers being able to take advantage of this town because the contract was not tight enough to avoid it. You can view these contracts with this developers, if you think they're rock solid in order to protect the village, then I'll be able to better understand where you're coming from. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave  Post Number: 9967 Registered: 4-1997  |
Cali, I would give a set of parameters with deliverables based on receiving timely feedback and signoffs. I would not pull "8 months" out of the air and walk away. I think you work for Microsoft.  | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1812 Registered: 3-2003 |
Cali - What I'm suggesting is not uncommon. Usually, in a redevelopment, the property is transferred to the redeveloper, and if certain milestones aren't met, the property reverts back to the municipality. The problem with the Shoprite site is that things have dragged on a long time and title hasn't even passed to the developer. Thus, my suggestion of a bond. And since Beifus already owned the property, it seemed that a bond would have been the way to go. The bottom line is that these properties are in the redevopmnet area, and the Village should have done something to make sure that the developers moved along, without just sitting there. And the same reasoning applies to Saiyd. The BOT keeps saying it's his property, and there's nothing the Village can do. But that's not accurate. His property is in the redevelopment area. He could have been asked to be designated as the redeveloper. Then he could have been asked to furnish a bond. Hope this explanation helps. | ||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 41 Registered: 4-2006 |
I spared you the full analysis process. And naturally there are many assumption made in order to arrive at that timeframe. The real test is if you are accurate, based on those assumptions. It you're off by 150% every time, then there is a problem. Come get your Vista! | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 4281 Registered: 5-2001 |
Cali, Thanks...I think I misread your earlier post not realizing you were trying to restate Sheena's words. Although, to use your example:
If you said that in 2001, how would your client feel TODAY if you STILL had not delivered (or even started)? THAT is exactly what we are talking about. In May 2001, the Village announced the Supermarket would open by Thanksgiving 2002. If you performed similarly, would you still be employed? | ||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2006 |
That's fair. I'll take this back to my original question. (and this will be the last loop back) What is the problem? With all we have going for us (and the tax incentives), why aren't these buildings filling up? Fast! | ||
| vermontgolfer Supporter Username: Vermontgolfer Post Number: 472 Registered: 12-2002 |
Cali6buff, I'm afraid none of us on SO/MOL can give you anything but our opinions. Why not attend a BOT meeting and ask them, maybe you'll have better luck than some of us have had. | ||
| Cali6buff Citizen Username: Cali6buff Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2006 |
I will do that. But, I'd love to hear the opinions. I like lots of opinions, it forces you to constantly rethink your own. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 9968 Registered: 4-1997 |
I wish the BoT shared your enthusiasm for other opinions. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14806 Registered: 1-2003  |
JTA, perhaps a wager will make the discussion interesting. Let her bet that it will open on, say, Sept 15, and if it isn't, she has to pay you. If it is, you pay. The suspense will be fun over the next months. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5441 Registered: 1-2004 |
Cali I didn't say 'NEVER' I said "we wouldn't be getting a market anytime soon."  I've been here more then forty years. IMHO This town, sadly is in the worst shape it's ever been in. Do you know how many years we've been told a market will be opening on the Shop-Rite site? We don't need more condos or apartments or 'newly built stores.' How about renting those already here? How about following through on the promises made years ago? How about next election voting these clowns O-U-T!!! Enough is enough! Time for a change!!! Why do we need some fancy smachy upscale market? How about just a decent place our seniors can walk to and the rest of us can find a parking space at? Up until recently I was DEFENDING our elected officals. I finally watched some of the BOT Meetings (even went to one but it's difficult to sit in those uncomfortable chairs with spinal cord problems for very long and even more difficult to breath with the poor air quality when the weather is this humid) and saw for myself what so many people have been complaining about. Why is it Livingston and even Maplewood can get projects off the ground (Livingston has even completed a few) in less time then we can? I'm sorry, it has EVERYTHING to do with those too many of us (me included) continue to re-elect year after year! I for one, do not plan to vote for ANY of those already in office ever again. (well except for Mark). I've even ticked off some people in real life because I've suddenly started to express my frustrations. Cali- Not being rude when I ask this. How long have you lived here? Hopefully you will be one of those who has a vision and maybe a plan for how the vision can become a reality. Hopefully someone like you will be so fed up you'll run for BOT. I can understand one, maybe two deadlines being missed, but there have been way to many. After awhile, you find it hard to believe what you're told. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5442 Registered: 1-2004 |
Tom- Actually that's a great idea and one my smart aleck nephew already put in my mom's mind. If Garden of Eden Gourmet Markets opens this Sept, as stated in the Snooze Wreckered, I can't post on MOL for a year. When they don't, my mom has to allow me to adopt another cat, or allow the twins (if they are still living here) to get a dog. Big sacrifice for either of the 'loosers.'  | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 611 Registered: 1-2006 |
The main opinion is that we have been lied to, and often. So, we guess and vent in frustration. jd | ||
| FlyingSpaghettiMonst Citizen Username: Noodlyappendage Post Number: 186 Registered: 11-2005  |
Garden of Eden has told village officials it plans to be open for business later this year, sometime around Thanksgiving or Christmas JTA, as usual you are confused and can't read. Where does it say in the article that the store will be open by September 15? |
