| Author | Message | ||
     jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 741 Registered: 6-2005 |
Today's NYTimes had an interesting article on how UConn is working with the town to build a new downtown. Shows what people of vision can accomplish. Well worth reading. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/09/realestate/09storrs.html?_r=1&oref=slogin | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1942 Registered: 12-2003  |
Looks like all of those developments include new rental units, something people in this town tend to fight with vigor. Everyone wants empty stores replaced with a Williams Sonoma or fancy cheese merchant. But that's not what developers want to build. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5860 Registered: 1-2004  |
Problem is taxes would not have to be paid on anything SH built. That's all we need, more buildings and people but no extra money to pay for the police and fire people we'd need. Also, the SH students will complain it's too far to walk from the camus to the Village. | ||
| John Citizen Username: Jdm Post Number: 101 Registered: 3-2006 |
Do youthink it's fair to compare UConn (public; 28,000 students; 20,000 undergrad) to Seton Hall (private; 10,000; 5,200)? | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 742 Registered: 6-2005 |
The only point i was trying to make is that Seton Hall and the Village could be working collaboratively to create a vision for at least part of the downtown. It is in the vested interest of both to do so. Right now we have a single person vision (if you can call it that) of our Village President. We've got a hodge podge of developers working (or not) on their own personal agendas, and we have a mess. Its Sterling. Its Saiyd. Its Beifus. its Millenium. I agree that UConn and Seton Hall are not equals, but there are parallels in that universities today need downtowns which are vital to compete for students. Its not just about the immediate campus anymore unless you are a top tier school and the school itself creates the demand. Seton Hall should recognize that and South Orange too has a vested interest in a vital downtown. Its just another way of thinking about things. | ||
| thegoodsgt Citizen Username: Thegoodsgt Post Number: 1043 Registered: 2-2002  |
Jayjay is right. If I were a trustee, I'd be spending a great deal of time around the state talking to leaders in communities like Red Bank to find out how they've been able to be successful in revitalizing their downtowns. I fear that our leaders are working in a vacuum, without any sense of learning from others communities' successes. | ||
| Bailey Citizen Username: Baileymac Post Number: 403 Registered: 3-2005 |
I remember reading about Seton Hall offering to guarantee occupancy to the hotel that was originally discussed for the Biefus site. SHU visitors have to travel pretty far to find a nice hotel, might have been nice to have one there in town. Surely would have been better than the hole in the ground we have now... but I digress. I agree that a great downtown would certainly attract students, and it's in the best interests of everyone to work together. I wonder how much, if any, input SHU has had in planning the downtown. Was SHU involved at all with Main Street South Orange? | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1945 Registered: 12-2003 |
I'm not sure why Seton Hall would want to spend any money developing the town, since the general vibe seems to be that most folks would rather have Seton Hall pack up and move somewhere else. Can't remember the last time I read anything on MOL that was positive about Seton Hall that wasn't written by someone from Seton Hall. | ||
| Sheena Collum Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 775 Registered: 4-2005  |
JTA - As I've posted before, SHU pays PILOTS "Payments in Lieu of Taxes" on all off-campus properties. Even though they 'would not have to' - they do. jayjay - you're correct - a collaborative effort would be great - which means that the Village would need to be receptive to having SHU be apart of the planning. But you will find that many committees do have an official rep from the University (Bailey- SHU was involved with MSSO and had an official rep. and also made financial contributions to its existence). I would very much favor investigating 'shared services' with SHU (not just M/SO). Trustee DeVaris has been attempting to reignite the "University Relations Committee" but the VP looked dumbfounded basically saying one already exists.... too bad it hasn't met in like a decade. SOPAC will bring many students to the downtown. That's not a guess - it's based on a survey we conducted a couple years ago and the #1 request was a movie theater. And of course, I'm sure we will have many travel to see TAU as the VP predicted (note: I tend to be a little more sarcastic at 9:20AM but what the heck). | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1736 Registered: 7-2005  |
Payments in lieu of taxes...so pocket change instead of substantial income.....riiiiight  | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1737 Registered: 7-2005 |
I agree with JTA. ANything built in town will be considered too far for SHU students. Even though it isn't. | ||
| Sheena Collum Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 776 Registered: 4-2005 |
Glock 17 - If I give you $10 and you call it 'cash' and I call it 'money' it doesn't change the value... So your 'pocket change' v. 'substantial income' comment makes no sense... maybe I misunderstood you. | ||
| mjh Supporter Username: Mjh Post Number: 745 Registered: 5-2001 |
Sheena; I think SHU must have rejected Glock's application. He seems to have a real obsessive mean streak about the university that he just can't shake. Awfully bitter for a kid. | ||
| argon_smythe Citizen Username: Argon_smythe Post Number: 885 Registered: 5-2001 |
...and a lot of people seem to have a real obsessive mean streak about Glock being younger than them. I don't see anything mean or obsessive about his points, which are valid. PILOTs represent a fixed payment obligation vs an ongoing revenue stream. That's a valid point. And the distance issue is also. I think if SHU were to take an active involvement in any commercial area of SO it would be the Irvington Ave area. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1740 Registered: 7-2005 |
mjh, I didn't apply to SHU. I had no desire to go there. End of story. I've taken a considerable dislike to the way this particular institution conducts business within the town in which I live. As argon_smythe so kindly pointed out, (Thank you, argon.) both of my points were valid. While the first was a bit sarcastic, my position remains the same. The idea of "PILOTs" is sham. It's just a pretty way of saying that if SHU doesn't feel like paying out a fair share, they don't have to. | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 743 Registered: 6-2005 |
The idea of this thread was to raise the idea of how smarter attempts at redevelopment can serve many consituents, in this case, residents and the student community. Can we get back to that notion rather than bashing SHU? We ARE in this together! | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1741 Registered: 7-2005 |
Where is the SHU bashing? | ||
| wnb Citizen Username: Wnb Post Number: 478 Registered: 8-2001 |
I think SHU should be engaged regarding the Irvington Avenue business district. If successful and win/win, then perhaps they'd be interested in partnering on other parts of town. I don't think the school should own or operate the land in question. There are many ways a university can act as an incubator to change the dynamic of a neighborhood, without buying land and developing it itself. The Stillman School of Business for example could make it an academic program to revitalize the Irvington Avenue district, with student and faculty participation in conjunction with local government and neighborhood groups. A first step towards all this could be "Monsignor Sheeran, tear down this wall!" LOL. Also, just because the school is within SO borders doesn't mean it couldn't or shouldn't also be active in improving the surrounding neighborhoods in all directions from the campus. | ||
| Politicalmon Citizen Username: Politicalmon Post Number: 232 Registered: 9-2005  |
Shenna; Do you have the history of payments made to the 'PILOT' program by Seton Hall? I was not aware these were payments made every year in lieu of taxes and I thought this was voluntary? Please enlighten me. | ||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 3471 Registered: 9-2003 |
Mark has posted a number of times about SHU's PILOT payments. I believe that they are in the area of $200,000. You are correct that they do this voluntarily and are not obligated in any way to make these payments. | ||
| Psychomom Citizen Username: Psychomom Post Number: 495 Registered: 5-2005  |
I admit a bias as I am a SHU alumna but if you go into SO village you would never know a university exists nearby. If you go out to South Bend, Indiana, so many businesses have a Notre Dame motif, New Brunswick has tons of Rutgers related shops, Morgantown WV, likewise as the town sports "the Mountaineers" of University of West Va. SHU has a shuttle bus now so access from campus shouldn't be an issue. It seems there has been a hostility toward the hall that dates wayyyy back. I tried to pinpoint the origin and in my mind I think it dates back to the late 60's or 70's when students were protesting the war and it spilled out into the town...any one else know why the negativity??? | ||
| wnb Citizen Username: Wnb Post Number: 483 Registered: 8-2001 |
Psychomom, I think there is a general sense that the school doesn't contribute to helping "make" the community, that they own a lot of tax-free property, but pretty much keep anything good inside those walls. Those protests are ancient history and I don't think they have anything to do with it. This town has had a huge turnover since those times. I think it has more to do with the points you made in your first paragraph, coupled with a general sense that they "don't pay taxes" and basically a feeling that the school gets a free ride at our expense. Add to that recent problems with off-campus housing issues (noise and similar nuisance complaints) and it adds up to a general sense of negativity for many. And let's face it, anyone getting a property tax break in Essex County is going to be resented by those who don't. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1948 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wnb: I certainly don't feel that way about Seton Hall. They're a big employer for the area, and their students contribute a lot of disposable income to local businesses. Given the number of empty storefronts in South Orange, it's hard to argue that the university is somehow occupying buildings tax-free that the town could be making a lot of money on if the university weren't there. | ||
| wnb Citizen Username: Wnb Post Number: 486 Registered: 8-2001 |
Those are all good points. However I think they are lost on some subset of the SO population. I'm personally on the fence. I think Seton Hall could do some cool and innovative stuff to help spur growth and make a stronger village. They're not under obligation to but they may be in a position to. I also think there's more we could do, individually and through our government and our neighborhood associations, to engage with the school more actively. | ||
| Elizabeth Citizen Username: Momof4peepers Post Number: 151 Registered: 12-2005 |
Man, when I was in school, the town administration completely embrased the school. Pretty much if you were a poly sci major, you got an internship with the town. If you were a sports nut, you could get an internship with the Rec Dept. If you were looking to get into landscape design, the Public Works department had your internship. Engineer-wannabes went to the building department, etc. TONS of free labor for the town, AWESOME experience for the students. Because we didn't just do grunt/scut work. There were real projects that were designed and implemented by the students. Students worked and shopped in the local businesses (paying sales tax along the way) and picked up the lifeguarding jobs at the local pool when the high school students went back. Not to mention all the babysitting that we did. 15 years later, a friend of mine is STILL friends with the family she babysat for. Conversely, the school rented out its buildings/chapels/space to local groups/weddings at reduced prices for town residents. Those that didn't live in town paid full price. I don't know enough about Seton Hall to know if any of this already goes on, but I do know that the town could use all the help it can get attracting businesses that would appeal to residents - students included. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1749 Registered: 3-2002 |
Elizabeth, If it helps as a point of reference, in my first 8 years in town, my only experiences with Seton Hall were the following: 1. Mailed invitations to used piano sales on campus 2. Starbucks employees and local waiters(?) 3. Placemats, banners, etc. at Bunnies 4. Noise and cost complaints Since then, contact has increased, with Seton Hall sponsored family day at the park, student involvement in town politics, etc. But I never got the sense that Seton Hall really gave a d**n about interactions with the town (or vice versa). Far from the kind of town-gown relationships that exist in some college towns. I too would love to see the Hall reach out, particularly to help us think through what to do about the Irvington strip, which seems like a great site for a cluster of student-facing enterprises. I'm not as sure that giving them a major seat on downtown redevelopment makes sense. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1951 Registered: 12-2003 |
Susan: In your eight years, which events/activities has the town been behind to engage Seton Hall students or otherwise reach out to the university? "Far from the kind of town-gown relationships that exist in some college towns." Which towns are those? | ||
| Irvington Pirate Citizen Username: Irvingtonpirate Post Number: 78 Registered: 6-2005 |
Cmontyburns posted... ""Far from the kind of town-gown relationships that exist in some college towns." Which towns are those?" Too many to name Cmonty! Take a look at Chapel Hill, NC (University of North Carolina); Morgantown, WV (West Virginia University), South Bend, IN (University of Notre Dame), etc. etc. These places have tremendous pride and appreciation for the universities that are within their borders. They know and love what their universities bring to the table. Just my opinion but as far as South Orange is concerned, I wish I could say the same thing but sadly I can't. You seem to be one of the few who gets it. Unfortunately, there are more bitter, anti-Seton Hall folks among the residents that prevent things from being done. See posts from such notables as JTA and Glock for examples of what I am talking about. No matter what the university does it will never be good enough for these types. In their minds everything wrong with South Orange is directly related to Seton Hall. That's sad. The university does a lot to help and try to be a part of the Village but the Village, to me anyway, seems to have the attitude that Seton Hall exists just to annoy them. Just look at some of the posts above, people don't want the university involved in the center of town, where all of the action is. No, instead it appears that they would like the university pushed to the end of town (the worst end too I may add) and wants the university to clean up an area long ignored by the Village. Why wouldn't these people want Seton Hall folks involved in any development downtown? The university certainly couldn't do any worse than the eyesores that currently exist with the coming (no time) soon signs and the fenced off craters. I don't know what the answer is to make the Village see how badly they are missing the boat with the university because this has been going on longer than some here have been alive. Like I said, it's sad. | ||
| Irvington Pirate Citizen Username: Irvingtonpirate Post Number: 79 Registered: 6-2005 |
jay jay - I'd love to see Seton Hall be able to do something such as what UConn is doing. Unfortunately I don't think the Village would allow it. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1751 Registered: 7-2005 |
"Unfortunately, there are more bitter, anti-Seton Hall folks among the residents that prevent things from being done. See posts from such notables as JTA and Glock for examples of what I am talking about. No matter what the university does it will never be good enough for these types. In their minds everything wrong with South Orange is directly related to Seton Hall. That's sad. " You couldn't possibly be any farther off the mark there. But I'll let you live in your dreamworld, for your sake. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5895 Registered: 1-2004 |
If you go to Montclair, Wayne, Union or even Madison (which has three) you wouldn't know colleges are there either. And most of those have their own police force (not rent a cops) | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5896 Registered: 1-2004 |
Irvington P How many times do I have to tell you I went to Seton Hall? I think I still have my acceptance letter in a box in our attic somewhere; want to see it? Bitter, not at all. But I will fight tooth and nail when students from SH think South Orange should pay for some kind of Jitney for students. I will continue to encourage residents to call the police about under age drinking and loud parties that disrupt the quality of life in South Orange. I will also speak out and not encourage SH buying any more property in town that will result in even a bigger tax loss. I don't think too many South Orange residents realize how much property the college actually owns. I could comment on why Chapel Hill, and South Bend take pride in the Universities located in their communities, but I'm not in the mood to get into an all out battle with you. And I don't know if you realize it or not, but you have totally slammed the people who live on Irvington Ave or any of those streets behind the college. If you really want to do something for the town, why not do something to help bring the area of Ward and Irvington Ave back to life? It's very close to campus. It's not that I don't think it would be nice for the College to have more of a presence in the Village, it's more I don't want SH to OWN anymore property in the Village because it would take that building off the tax rolls. to walk.' There is a big difference in being bitter against SH and looking out for the town I have lived in most of my life. | ||
| SOrising Citizen Username: Sorising Post Number: 636 Registered: 2-2006 |
I appeciate your distinctions, JTA. I don't know what the answer is about cost of services. Maybe the town and SHU could share costs of Jitneys which townies and school people both would use. Most schools I've seen and known do have some kind of security force of their own that still has to work in tandem with local authorities. I do know that large schools can help with urban renewal, if not in taxes, then in locating in undesirable areas and bringing in employees and other kind of economic activity. Two near examples of this are Fordham in the Bronx and, with mixed results, Columbia University, especially its Medical Center, above 125th in Manhattan. Georgetown of course is in a very desirable area of DC and neighborhoods near universities are often thought to be desirable places to live in. The schools generally are thought to be stable, solvent, beneficial influences in many places. I know that Yale had various kinds of low interest mortgage loans for faculty, students and personnel to settle in specific areas of New Haven that had fallen onto hard times. I think many junior faculty and other employees of SHU probably are not able to afford to live in SO. There are many things a university could do to work with towns, given the will, right timing and ingenuity. Does anyone know total enrollment and employee base of SHU and how it compares to the 17,000 or so people in SO? | ||
| Psychomom Citizen Username: Psychomom Post Number: 506 Registered: 5-2005 |
When you consider all the schools, undergrad and graduate, the Law school in Newark and all the associated staff and faculty, part time and full time students, I would imagine it would outnumber the 17,000 people in SO. BTW JTA Madison only has 2 Universities technically, Drew and Farleigh Dickenson...St. Elizabeth's is actually in Convent Station. While not as prevalent as the aforementioned Notre Dame, Univ W VA, Rutgers etc, In the fall there is always a big banner hung from the train trestle saying Welcome Back Drew, Farleigh and St. E's students...when Drew has re-union there is a banner hung welcoming the alumni/ae back to the area. Also the Shakespeare Theater and other large events will be publicized there as well. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1956 Registered: 12-2003 |
Also, the people in Chapel Hill who live right by the university generally hate the students. That is, the residents who aren't professors. College towns always look more quaint and harmonious when you don't live in them. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5907 Registered: 1-2004 |
SOrising I'm not sure about the cost of services either. I would like to see the town provide transportation to the high school students living more then two miles from Columbia, but just under the two required two miles; or the Middle School students living in the Tuxedo Park or Clinton area, before getting into any kind of partnership with the college. I'm not sure how much some of the colleges, such as Montclair, Kean, William Paterson work with their community departments. Last I knew, and that was a few years back, the State Police filled the role of the Campus Police. The difference is SH does not use real police officers. They are security guards, aka rent a cops. I still remember there being an incident right outside the gate with a young lady screaming for help. The 'guard' in the security booth didn't even venture out of the booth to help her. You are right about Columbia, Georgetown, and Fordham. It would be nice if Seton Hall and South Orange could have a similar relationship. Even Rutgers integrates itself into the communities it's campus' are located. Look at the colleges in Newark -Rutgers, NJIT, even SHU Law School. I remember suggesting last year as a way to get more students into town and to help bring the college and town together might be to move the bookstore into the Village. I also remember the response I got from some of the SH students. I wonder if South Orange could do something like Yale. If professors were offered low interest mortgages, maybe they would move here with their families. My family moved here in the early 60's when my father took a teaching position at SHU. I know several other families who moved here for the same reason. But this was forty years ago. Someone suggested having the college involved with the redevelopment of the Irvington Ave area. As a SH student pointed out, it seems the BOT really doesn't care about that part of town anyway. I think SH would be meet with a lot less resistance turning that area around then the area in the actual village. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5908 Registered: 1-2004 |
wnb EXCELLENT POST!!! | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5909 Registered: 1-2004 |
SOrising In answer to your question "Does anyone know total enrollment and employee base of SHU and how it compares to the 17,000 or so people in SO" I got this directly off the SHU Website: "And if you worry that you will be just one of many students vying for your professors’ time, you can relax. At Seton Hall, you are more than just a number. We offer all the resources of a large institution to less than 5,000 undergraduates and approximately 3,000 graduate students. Most classes average 25 students and fewer than 4 percent of courses taught by teaching assistants. Our low student-to-faculty ratio of 14:1 ensures that you get the personal attention you need." Based on the above I would guess there are 571 faculty. (I added the number of undergraduate and graduate students then divided by 14) | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5910 Registered: 1-2004 |
cmonty- Why should the town have to 'reach out' to Seton Hall? Why can't Seton Hall reach out to the town? Perhaps both the town and the college are to balme for the bad feelings? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5911 Registered: 1-2004 |
Psychomom Ooops, you're right about Saint E's! I keep forgetting even though they are all in the same area. I'm not sure why a banner is hung from the train trestle there and not here. I would think it's NJ Transit Property, right? Maybe Seton Hall hasn't asked? I do know for as long as I can remember there has been a sign at Mountain Station that says "Marylawn of the Oranges." Not sure how that got there or if it's even there still. Drew might pay to advertise it's plays, I don't know. I do know I see their plays listed on different theater group websites, but I don't always see The Theater in the Round on the same sites. Don't the Giants also practice at Drew? Perhaps those colleges give more to the towns, so the towns don't mind hanging a banner? I don't see what the harm would be for South Orange to allow a banner to be hung from the train station. Maybe by something as simple as hanging a banner, could be the first step toward better communication between the town and SH. |
