| Author | Message | ||
     Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3444 Registered: 5-2001  |
Lucy: I don't think that religious freedom is the issue under discussion here. Nobody here disputes one's right to practice any religion, but the issues which exist where religion and the secular society (in which we thankfully live) cross paths are not easily discussed without passions flaring. That has been established, I think, all too well. -s. BTW, mem: I doubt that LL has much respect or tolerance for any institution (or person) imposing on civil or human rights. Shall I take it that you differ from her in this? | ||
| Pizzaz Citizen Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 1985 Registered: 11-2001  |
The passion is to allow others, including institutions, to observe their faiths as they see fit. It's that simple. You don't have to agree with it, nor do you have to send your child to the school. Athough, as you know, they do have a great Judeo-Christian Studies program. Btw: As a favor to TomR, I think you are entitled to a picture deserving of your style.  | ||
| Parkingsux Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 17 Registered: 6-2005 |
HOOT! HOOT! HOOT! | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 971 Registered: 12-2003  |
Again, Seton Hall is not some small mosque tucked away somewhere. It's one of the largest universities in New Jersey, and I would guess a big, big chunk of its students go there because of its location, cost and reputation as an educational institution, and not because of the school's religious beliefs. You do accept that there are gay students at Seton hall, right? Why aren't you agitating for the school to do more to weed them out? It's their right -- and a clear sin in the eyes of the Catholic Church. And I'd hate to think about how many students are condoming their way straight to hell. It strikes me as a bit of a double standard to say it's okay to quietly ignore some of the church's teachings, so long as you don't outwardly support anything in disagreement with the church. | ||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 2633 Registered: 5-2001  |
mem: I doubt that LL has much respect or tolerance for any institution (or person) imposing on civil or human rights Yes Soda, you are right, (as usual)!!! Mem, try separating my opinion of the "Church" and its dogma with my feelings for Catholic people. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 5075 Registered: 5-2001  |
Give up the fight before you waste too much time - there are many many large famous catholic and other religious universities and learning centers with their own beliefs - I went to a catholic university (VERY nice on the resume) yet I am a devil worshiper, but they had no problem with it, they just didn't recognize it - and that was their right. It's a PRIVATE school, with PRIVATE funding. Go make noise in the public arena where you're allowed. Hopefully this silly, vogue notion that it's OK to pick on Catholics will pass before it backfires. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 8872 Registered: 5-2001 |
Personally I think it is hypocritical for Seton Hall to take the tuition of gay and lesbian students, but then try to ignore they are on campus. The weird, and that is the only word I can think of, is that many Catholics ranging from Mrs. K to Andrew Sullivan disagree with many of the teachings of the Church, but still consider themselves members thereof. Many religious sponsored colleges and universities (including some Catholic ones) accept, and often encourage, diversity of thought under the banner of academic freedom and basically take the view that their ideas will win out in the end and be strengthened by debate (sort of Jesuit approach). | ||
| Lucy Citizen Username: Lucy Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2005 |
Mem THE VOICE OF REASON! | ||
| singlemalt Supporter Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 1059 Registered: 12-2001  |
LL, Imagine if the pork producers of America filed suit aganst TSTI and forced them to serve pork products at all Sisterhood and Hadassah social occasions? What is sacred to one religion may not be to another. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 198 Registered: 4-2005  |
This is going to be one hell of a long post but for those interested in knowing the facts, please read on. Several years ago, SPECTRUM was proposed by students as a "gay-straight" alliance type group. It was turned down and the University created a task force to address how to better educate the students about homosexuality, etc. http://domapp01.shu.edu/depts/affairs/Setonian.nsf/(WebDisplayView)/652691DCE958 ED7185256C4200827DCF Then, about two years ago, one of friends Anthony Romeo (the one who filed suit on behalf of the group), was subject of a bias incident that took place in Aquinas Hall. The University responded immediately by holding a residence hall meeting that was mandated for all to attend. At this meeting, things such a "mutual respect" was discussed and Anthony gave a very heartwarming speech to his colleagues and friends about being a homosexual and wanting to live in a society in which he was not discriminated against or tormented for who he was. Following that incident, many of our GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender) students began talking about the need for a GLBT group. The purpose of the proposed group was not to have "gay foam parties" or whatever people thought. The purpose of the group known as T.R.U.T.H. (Trust, Respect, Unity at The Hall) was to educate fellow students on injustices and put on positive programming to encourage other students to get to know one another and learn about the whole person and not just their sexual orientation. This group went through the SOAC (Student Organization Advisory Committee ) process and were approved for recognition from the student committee. However, at the end of the day the University has discretion over all proposed groups and organizations. Many are turned down for liability reasons or because they are not mission compliant etc. In the place of offering provisional status and/or recognition, the Division of Student Affairs offered a "Memorandum of Understanding" to the members of the proposed group. It states the following: __________________________________________________ The University will permit the students to operate at the South Orange campus under the following guidelines and understandings: Name and Relationship • An identifying name will be mutually agreed upon between your representatives and the Vice President for Student Affairs. • The group will stand in “special relationship” to the Office of the Vice President for Student Affairs through which all of its privileges, benefits and responsibilities will be coordinated. Purpose. The purpose of this group will be to: • provide education to the campus community, in a manner consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church, about the injustice of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation; • oppose discrimination against students, faculty, and staff on the basis of sexual orientation; • provide a forum for discourse, discussion and the exchange of views; • support the lesbian and gay students of Seton Hall University through programs to educate the campus community about the injustice of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation; • work with the University to foster a safe environment for all students; • work with the University to promote support groups for parents and family members who ask for pastoral help or spiritual guidance. Privileges. The group will be permitted to: • sponsor educational events, meetings and programs; • sponsor volunteer and community service initiatives; • provide a forum for discourse, discussion and the exchange of views; • support lesbian and gay students of Seton Hall University through programs that educate the campus community about the injustice of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation; • elect officers and or create ad hoc committees; • submit requests for funds for particular activities, and or other resources to the Vice President for Student Affairs. The group shall not be permitted to: • sponsor activities that are contrary to, or involve advocacy contrary to, Church teachings on human sexuality; • use the University’s name in a fashion that would imply that the University approves of homosexual behavior, or any lifestyle that is contrary to the Church’s teachings on human sexuality; • sponsor religious services or activities; • sponsor social activities. Responsibilities: • The Vice President for Student Affairs shall have the responsibility to serve as the direct liaison to the group and to approve the advisor(s) to the group. • The group shall have the responsibility to furnish the Vice President for Student Affairs with a report of activities, programs and achievements at the end of each semester. • The group shall have the responsibility to ensure that any outline of proposed activities will include clear communication of the Church’s teachings on human sexuality. These guidelines are subject to change at the discretion of the University at any time. The group acknowledges that, in accepting these guidelines, it will neither seek nor expect formal recognition by the University or elsewhere. The University reserves the right to terminate this arrangement in the event of a violation of the guidelines. __________________________________________________ The students in the group still felt as though this was not equal. So they declined to operate under the Memorandum and that's when the lawsuit was filed. http://domapp01.shu.edu/depts/affairs/Setonian.nsf/(WebDisplayView)/2834431E1291 324C85256E5B00588306 In April of 2004 the Student Government Association passed a resolution of support. The SGA is comprised of student representation from every aspect of student life. It passed unanimously with 2 abstentions. In September of 2004 - the courts dismissed the case but it was then reversed by the Superior Court allowing the case to be heard. http://domapp01.shu.edu/depts/affairs/Setonian.nsf/(WebDisplayView)/F47B5EE617B6 D56385256F1F0076721B In the meantime, the gay students on campus along with their allies continued to meet and plan educational programs and whatnot without official recognition. They did a very controversial chalking on "national coming out day" http://domapp01.shu.edu/depts/affairs/Setonian.nsf/(WebDisplayView)/0B6D5881D942 435985256F2D001C410C Following the chalking, there was another bias incident on campus: http://domapp01.shu.edu/depts/affairs/Setonian.nsf/(WebDisplayView)/5D7FFD500856 22CE85256F340055BA62 So at this time, I wrote a resolution to condemn any individuals involved with the bias incident and the SGA offered a reward to anyone who told us who it was, etc. As Speaker of the Senate at the time, I authored, I would say, the most controversial resolution SGA has seen which took a 4 hour debate and needed to be tabled. It was no longer a "support" resolution but rather one that detailed a lot of aggressive action plans. http://domapp01.shu.edu/depts/affairs/Setonian.nsf/(WebDisplayView)/2FB75F9D7C1E D92785256F3400559EFE Several senators, along with myself, made a few slight adjustments to the resolution to make it a little more "friendly" and then, it passed unanimously with one abstention. http://domapp01.shu.edu/depts/affairs/Setonian.nsf/(WebDisplayView)/CBCEC5C66692 CDCC85256F3B0054C7AD Here's where it gets even stickier. One of our faculty members wrote a letter to the editor expressing how we should uphold our catholic identity and it caused a lot of controversy. Then, the following week Archbishop Meyers wrote a letter in support of what this faculty member wrote. http://domapp01.shu.edu/depts/affairs/Setonian.nsf/(WebDisplayView)/99F0A921C06B BF8385256F3B0057AC91 To conclude this year, the SGA held an open forum/community meeting on the issue... again... it had some tensions: http://domapp01.shu.edu/depts/affairs/Setonian.nsf/(WebDisplayView)/6F0DD421B3BD 15B485256FC700559A53 After the new SGA came in, the senate again passed another resolution of support and I signed it with no reservations (that makes 3 resolutions passed unanimously through the student governing body within a 2 year time frame) By the end of the year, those students in TRUTH proposed SAFE (Students Advocating For Equality) which was similar to TRUTH but had a more clear cut definition and stated it would be 100% mission compliant. SOAC tabled this request stating that because TRUTH was at the court level, it would be pointless to address this issue at this time. So - that's where we are now. I can tell you first hand that on most part, the University has done EVERYTHING in its power to support the GLBT students on campus. The Division of Student Affairs along with the Department of Community Development has had an open door policy with all students and they have worked very closely with the GLBT students. I'm not making excuses for the Catholic position but the most I can say is that the University DOES HIGHLY RECOGNIZE DIVERSITY and has a HUGE commitment to ALL OF ITS STUDENTS! Call my statements politically correct or whatever you wish, but it's the TRUTH - my statements can be affirmed by any student on this campus. Our VP of Student Affairs recently sent out a memo to her division which she allowed me to distribute to the students - it stated her full commitment to having a safe community and being fully prepared to work with the GLBT community to ensure a diverse campus with mutual respect for everyone. I, personally, believe this is a human rights issue and has nothing to do with whether the church does or does not like something. That's just how I feel. But in the mean time, I'm going to continue to work on the positive aspects of what this group can do without the "official recognition" they are aiming for. It will be an uphill battle but I'm confidant that soon more people will not "tolerate" diversity but rather accept and embrace it. Hope that helps... continue on... and I encourage you all to read the articles I linked. Sheena | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3446 Registered: 5-2001 |
Pizzaz: Yes. The program you refer to is a Masters-level Dept, "Jewish-Christian Studies"; interestingly, however, if one looks on the "Departments and Programs" page of SHU's Undergraduate College of Arts & Sciences (http://artsci.shu.edu/depts.htm) for links to the following "Special Programs" or "Centers and Institutes": Center for African and African-American Studies Center for Applied Catalysis Center for Urban Research and Environmental Studies International Office Asia Center Multicultural Center Judaeo-Christian Institute, there are no links to such websites. I make no further comment regarding SHU's committment to diversity. -s. BTW: Where are those LL Links???? | ||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 2634 Registered: 5-2001 |
Except I am not forcing them to keep kosher and I don't want any religion to force me to abide by their rules either. And make no mistake about it, fundamentalists in this country (of all ilks) are trying to force their beliefs on non believers. | ||
| Pizzaz Citizen Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 1986 Registered: 11-2001 |
Now you wish to equate Catholicism to Fundamentalism. You never surprise me, LL. | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3450 Registered: 5-2001 |
Nor you me, Pizzaz... -s. BTW: "You've posted far too many insults on those who have faith as Catholics in your past postings. If I go to the archives I can find a myriad of attacks." LINKS??? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 8874 Registered: 5-2001 |
Fundamentalism - Believes that the Bible is literally God's word. Evangelical - Feels that it is their duty to spread the word of Christ. To be honest most Christian faiths are Evangelical to one degree or another. Remember the Church of Christ (probably the most liberal and inclusive Christian denominations) "Bouncer" ads last Christmas? The two terms arenot interchangeable. | ||
| Parkingsux Citizen Username: Parkingsux Post Number: 18 Registered: 6-2005 |
SODA WATCH WHAT YOU SAY STALKER | ||
| gotcha Citizen Username: Gotcha Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2005 |
Fundamentalism - Believes that the Bible is literally God's word. Now you wish to equate Catholicism to Fundamentalism. You never surprise me, LL. So Catholics don't believe that the Bible is the word of God??? | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 5076 Registered: 5-2001 |
"I don't want any religion to force me to abide by their rules either." LL - I can guarantee that this is NOT happening at Seton Hall, rather the reverse in this case. The Catholic Church believes that it won't officially recognize gays, and it is being forced otherwise. I do hope the church loses this one, but please note, the church is not FORCING their beliefs on anyone. I went to catholic undergrad, and I got my masters at Seton Hall U. Both schools were surprisingly tolerant. I have been an atheist since I was five years old, and at no point did I ever feel compromised about my lack of belief, or was I taught ANYTHING catholic, many teachers were atheists of course. They had courses available like "Religion As a Crutch", which I took to fill a philosophy requirement. So, to state that there is any "forcing" going on is wrong. Personally, if I were gay and I needed a university recognized group I would choose a different university. | ||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3451 Registered: 5-2001 |
"M-SO Message Board South Orange Specific Seton Hall Anti-Gay Bias OKd By Court Parkingsux - 6/27, 1:31 pm - HOOT! HOOT! HOOT! Parkingsux - 6/27, 2:56 pm - SODA WATCH WHAT YOU SAY S Trustee communication Parkingsux - 6/26, 4:11 pm - The trustees communicate. Parkingsux - 6/26, 4:15 pm - The trustees communicate. Days-Elapsed-Since-Beifus-Shovel-in-the-Dirt Day Parkingsux - 6/27, 1:01 pm - MAYBE MAKE A PARKING LOT! Train Station Platform Parkingsux - 6/20, 2:44 pm - S.O.D.A.= SOUTH ORANGE DU Parkingsux - 6/20, 2:59 pm - LOL.. HOOT HOOT HOOT Parkingsux - 6/20, 3:15 pm - PRETTY QUIET NOW HUH S.O. Parkingsux - 6/20, 5:12 pm - LOOK AT THIS S.O.D.A. SEL Parkingsux - 6/21, 3:23 pm - Its a friend of a friend Business hall of shame Archive through June 13, 2005 Parkingsux - 6/12, 4:07 pm - Im new to this Maplewood Parkingsux - 6/12, 4:28 pm - I agree, Lucy. This town Food, Wine, Dining & Travel Cant remember name of restaurant Parkingsux - 6/25, 5:05 pm - SODA LOVES THE SAUSAGE!! Parkingsux - 6/25, 5:08 pm - HOOT! HOOT! HOOT! Parkingsux - 6/25, 5:09 pm - SODAS JUST FLAT! Parkingsux - 6/25, 5:10 pm - IS YOUR SON CRYIN NOW TO Parkingsux - 6/25, 5:31 pm - STALKER.. LIKE FATHER LIK Parkingsux - 6/25, 5:44 pm - HOOT! HOOT! HOOT!" So sad that he's almost funny... On the other hand...  -s. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 8875 Registered: 5-2001 |
Gotcha, most Christians don't believe the Bible word for word, but recognize it as a document written by fallable human beings often long after the events written about. Going back to the old testament most Christians (and many Jews) don't believe the world was created in six days, but it does make a nice story.  |
