| Author | Message | |||
     gotcha Citizen Username: Gotcha Post Number: 23 Registered: 5-2005 |
As does the rest of the Bible! | |||
| singlemalt Supporter Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 1060 Registered: 12-2001  |
LL, I am sorry - if the temple was forced via a lawsuit to hang a cross with Jesus over the arc in the sactuary, it would bother you. | |||
| Matt Foley Citizen Username: Mattfoley Post Number: 290 Registered: 6-2004  |
The story in Genesis is actually a tale mostly borrowed from the Enuma Elish (sp?). Which was the Babylonian creation epic. I agree it is a "nice" story & offers more dogmatic insight rather than an actual event. | |||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 972 Registered: 12-2003  |
"Gotcha, most Christians don't believe the Bible word for word, but recognize it as a document written by fallable human beings often long after the events written about." Let me preface this by saying that you and I generally see eye to eye on everything Bob K. -- and I admit I have something of a thing for Mrs. K. based on your frequent descriptions of her -- but here I can't agree with you. While I accept that many modern-day Christians do indeed have that interpretation of the Bible, I'd argue it's an interpretation of convenience, and certainly not something supported by religious scholarship. The notion of the authors of the Bible being fallible -- insofar as their recitation of messages from God -- is certainly a relatively recent interpretation. None of the contemporaries of the apostles viewed them as opinion columnists. Anyways, talk about a thread drift on my part... | |||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 2635 Registered: 5-2001  |
Single, Absolute it would bother me. Didn't I post I don't want any religion to force me to abide by their rules either. | |||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 8879 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bring back the Inquisition!!!!!  | |||
| singlemalt Supporter Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 1061 Registered: 12-2001 |
LL, I miss the connection. First, Seton Hall is not forcing or asking you to become a student or even walk on their campus. Second, why would it be ok for the courts to force Seton Hall to allow a group that is in direct conflict with their religious values but you openly admit having the courts do this to your religion would upset you? | |||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 747 Registered: 3-2002 |
Sheena, Thank you for the details, and best of luck. It is not an easy line to walk. I know people who are both seriously Catholic (or Jewish) and definitely gay, and have seen their struggles to be true to both sides of their selves. I try to be open to all religions, until they start infringing on the rights of others. Then I get mad. Mostly I'm OK with Seton Hall, since those of you who attend there have chosen to do so, and choose to take on the conflicts that that can entail (as I choose to take on the conflicts that being a feminist Conservative Jew can entail). However, the positions that Seton Hall takes toward its own students do make me feel less warm about town-gown relations, as I said above, but are mainly internal affairs. Where I get really angry (along with Library Lady) is when religious groups go out and try to force their beliefs on the rest of us. Radical Islamic contingents have sometimes done this by violence. Radical Protestants and Catholics are trying to do it by law (e.g. Ave Maria Law School and the Thomas Moore Foundation). I do my best to make a distinction between those who quietly practice their own religions, and those who try to make them law, within each religious tradition. | |||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 139 Registered: 2-2005 |
It is a catholic private school people...This isn't Rutgers University. If your views and personal beliefs are not inline with those of the Catholic church then I recommend not attending a Catholic school, or sending your son or daughter to a catholic university. If you want to attend school in an open and accepting enviornment then why not seek out an institution that has a reputation with being open or is required to by law(a public school). At a minimum a college that isn't religious. Your all criticizing a religious college that is trying to protect it's catholic traditions as if it is wronging you all so dearly. The University has an obligation to maintain its catholic mission and heritage to those of us who are catholic. The college is very liberal as actual Catholic standards go...if the Catholic church changed its position on issues I have no doubt the college could and would be more accepting. | |||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3452 Registered: 5-2001  |
Posted by John Pogany on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 10:31 am, addressing LibraryLady: "You've posted far too many insults on those who have faith as Catholics in your past postings. If I go to the archives I can find a myriad of attacks." John: You are (to be kind) thoughtless, irresponsible, and arrogant. The hurtful invective you have showered upon LL today was needless, untrue, and, of course (so typical of you) unsupported. For the past four hours, you have failed to post ANY evidence to back up your malicious posting. Nor have you the shown the decency to apologize to Nancy. Shame on you. Maybe nobody else cares about this, but I, for one, expect you to either post whatever links you referred to, or post a public apology. -s. BTW: I am reminded here again why I am so proud not to have voted for you. I consider you utterly unfit for any public office. (Edited to add: If Dave considers this post to be a personal attack, worthy of suspension, please do suspend me. I will consider it a pleasure...) | |||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 140 Registered: 2-2005 |
what is offensive about this whole thread is they way it started: "SETON HALL ANTI-GAY BIAS OK'd by Court" | |||
| Pizzaz Citizen Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 1989 Registered: 11-2001  |
It's his style. He is a consummate troll. | |||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3453 Registered: 5-2001 |
O&G: Provocative Editorial Headlines For Sale, Cheap.  -s. BTW: Links, Pizzaz??? | |||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 2636 Registered: 5-2001 |
I guess the AP Newswire is the "consummate troll" as well NEWARK: SETON HALL REFUSAL OF GAY GROUP IS UPHELD Seton Hall University did not violate state law by refusing to recognize a gay and lesbian group that wanted to organize on its campus, according to a ruling by a three-judge panel of the Appellate Division of the New Jersey Superior Court. A state antidiscrimination law bars bias based on sexual orientation, but the panel found that an exemption for religious institutions applied to Seton Hall, a Roman Catholic university in South Orange. (AP)" Says right there, anti-gay bias only for them it ain't illegal! | |||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 142 Registered: 2-2005 |
Soda...I find you entertaining on most accounts, but not so on this, but take that with no malice. I am completely accepting of alternative lifestyles and believe in government to maintain equal opportunities and rights for all citizens within the public realm. However as a catholic I expect my church and catholic institutions to withhold it's traditions within its scope and views. I don't expect my church's conservative views to be in line with government or most citizens, however they are not required too. On the actual subject of this thread: The lawsuit was somewhat of a waste because SHU is rooted in NJ law and is rarely attackable in the courts of this state. Maybe if the litigant went Federal he may have had a shot, but still I think it would have been dissmissed there as well with no merit. This is both a political and religious issue and you can never win an argument on either...just draw your line in the sand and tell your side. | |||
| singlemalt Supporter Username: Singlemalt Post Number: 1062 Registered: 12-2001 |
No, it's a freedom of religion issue. | |||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 143 Registered: 2-2005 |
How is that biased? One could make the argument that it is anti-catholic to ask for recognition of a gay group at a catholic institution. I hope your not on the clock Library lady. I assume your at work. You seem to spend an awful lot of taxpayer time discussing your personal feelings and correcting people on this website. Guess the village allows its employees free internet time at work. I wish my job offered that. | |||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3455 Registered: 5-2001 |
O&G: I was prompted to start the thread by the little S-L article I quoted up top. SHU:S.O. relations have been a big local topic lately, and given the "culturally diverse" nature of the MOL populace, I thought it would be a natural as a sort of cross-over topic. Interesting results, eh? Yours in decrepitude, -s. | |||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 691 Registered: 4-2004 |
So the operative premise you espouse, Library Lady, is that we examine all religious groups and their many doctrines, practices, tenets, traditions and points of faith, etc., we identify those which we find inconsistent with modern caselaw or constitutional guarantees and we...what? Shut them down? Ship them Out? Prohibit them from practicing? Or do we take matters a step further and take action against the practicioners themselves? Sounds dangerously close to Facism, and it sounds very much like what our fathers fought against on European soil just a few decades ago. This country was established to protect these rights, and as a haven for religious tolerance. When you say that the courts should overturn a Catholic Institution's right to adhere to the doctrines of their faith, you are espousing a view every bit as extreme and intolerant as those of the religious right that you so vehemently denounce. Nobody is telling you to do anything; Seton Hall is telling this particular group that they cannot recognize them officially as it is against their faith to do so. They do not do this capriciously or easily or even necessarily in line with their own personal feelings. It is a doctrine of their faith, and there is no greater time to stand by one's faith than when one is pressured to abandon it. There are other educational institutions available; if you attend this one it comes with certain religious standards that will not bend to accomodate. The greatness in this society is that each of us can pretty much find the way that suits us. We may not, however, bend another's will to satisfy our own needs and wants. | |||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 974 Registered: 12-2003 |
So no problem with country clubs that won't accept blacks, or private high schools that ban homosexuals? Just as long as they aren't public institutions? | |||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 5077 Registered: 5-2001  |
Brett said it perfectly. Church and State should be kept separate, right? Be careful to keep it both ways... Doesn't the constitution say the State can't govern religion, as religion can't govern the State? | |||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 692 Registered: 4-2004 |
Religions are not country clubs, and most of them predate this nation by a millenium or two, or more. They are also not compulsory; even those born into one are not obliged to stay. And as stated, I personally disagree with the Catholic Church on this one. But Freedom of Religion was among the first protections that this new nation offered, and it still stands. The Buddhist, the Jew, the Native American and the Atheist all get a place at the table. It is not for us to tell them their faith or how to practice it. Hitler tried that, as did Queen Elizabeth I, The Spanish Incquisition and a litany of other despots. Not here and not now. | |||
| Soda Supporter Username: Soda Post Number: 3456 Registered: 5-2001 |
Do unto others... Do your own thing... live & let live... don't rain on my parade... play nice... I'm OK, You're OK... Different strokes... Take it easy, Brett. So far as I can see, nobody's telling Catholics to cease & desist from anything, within their own church. That said, I see no reason why a person can't point to this or that custom, dictum, or interpretation of scripture (of any religion!)and say, "This is bogus. This is unfair. This is unjust." And I see no reason why they can't do it here on MOL (supposedly) without fear of being labelled "Anti-Catholic". Only the small-minded or mean-spirited cannot brook honest intellectual inquiry and analysis. Faith is enough. Yours. Mine. His. Hers... I don't tell somebody else how to think. I just ask that they treat me with the same respect. I'm out. -s. | |||
| hariseldon Citizen Username: Hariseldon Post Number: 370 Registered: 5-2001  |
Pizza: you never surprise anyone by showing independent thinking or by deviating from the most predictable dogma. Most Catholics do not automatically go along with the Church's most objectionable official positions, even though few are willing so far to recognize that they - not the centralized heirarchy - should own the Church. The quarrel here is not with specific religions but with the fundamentalist - and therefore inherently intolerant - branches of Islam, Judaism, or Christianity. So cut out the rhetoric about comments being anti-Catholic. Is censure of the Ayatolahs anti-Islam? I don't think so. The U.S. is an Enlightenment creation - the Age of Reason rather than an age of faith. It follows mainly Protestant principles that separate Church from State and make Churches accountable to their members. Universities are supposed to embrace new discoveries and new thinking. When SHU saya it has a "mission" to dispense dogma, as in its bogus recognition of TRUTH, it becomes just an enforcer for the World's oldest existing totalitarian organization, not a real university. | |||
| Pizzaz Citizen Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 1990 Registered: 11-2001 |
You Sir, I would like to meet in person. You are a troll, as well. I never said that I, personally, accept the exclusion, although I understand it in context. To deduce that I kowtow to every teaching of the church, I do not. I do respect the church as a community of faith. For you to insinuate otherwise leads me to believe that you are a buffoon. BTW: Your picture so aptly confirms it. Edited | |||
| crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 156 Registered: 1-2004 |
cow tail? Do you mean kowtow? | |||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 748 Registered: 3-2002 |
Brett, religions are not country clubs, but religious universities are not religions. They are large institutes of higher education, supported in part by federally guaranteed student loans and research grants. Freedom to practice religion is not the same as a guarantee of federal and state grant support to institutions which discriminate. The courts will decide where the line is drawn, but no one can say that Seton Hall is purely private as it collects millions of tax dollars each year. Please note, I am not saying that Seton Hall should be forced to give up federal grants or accept homosexuality wholeheartedly. I do say that it cannot be seen as a purely private church when issues of discrimination come up. This is not a pure issue of separation of church and state, but something more complex. | |||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 693 Registered: 4-2004 |
Well stated Susan- food for thought. | |||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 2276 Registered: 6-2003 |
Agree. And I do think Pizzaz should offer proof of his accusations as far as LL or apologize. | |||
| Pizzaz Citizen Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 1991 Registered: 11-2001 |
Mayor Guiliani reference is enough. Her connotation is quite clear to me. It was a disgusting display of "art" in New York as it was in the thread that generated her post. http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=3133&post=299950#POST2999 50 Here we now agree, Soda. I'm out of this thread. | |||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 2637 Registered: 5-2001 |
O&G..You know what they say about assuming... | |||
| LibraryLady(ncjanow) Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 2638 Registered: 5-2001 |
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| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 750 Registered: 3-2002 |
Mentioning Rudi Guliani makes her anti-catholic???? Even after reading the old thread your logic escapes me entirely. | |||
| PARROT HEAD Citizen Username: Island_jack Post Number: 100 Registered: 3-2004  |
Soda, I've taken a break from posting for awhile because certain things that I have said about the town were not suitable of me to say as an employee of DPW. This, however, is not a town issue. So here we go! 1. Having been raised by concervative parents in a strict Irish-Catholic household, I agree with the courts decision to not allow gays and lesbians to assemble on the property of a well respected, CATHOLIC university. It would be a contradiction of the practices of the Catholic faith. 2. How can you read a post like Brett Weir's above, probably the most intellegent and well-thought out post I've seen this year, and attack him for it 3. I don't understand how it is possible that you can say things like- ".....how proud I am to not have voted for you."- about Pizzaz, and not get booted off this message board, when personal friends of mine have been suspended for merely expressing thier opinions. Outing someone's identity is against the rules on MOL so I hope referring to you as "jackass" doesn't get me in trouble. Afterall, it's only my opinion. But you know what they say- opinions are like a@#$oles, everyone's got one and they all stink. | |||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 202 Registered: 4-2005  |
Okay - people here still did not read my 4 page post because if SHU is in the mix of this discussion... the debate is way off. SHU GLBT students can gather... they can protest... they have had informal protests sanctioned by the University - they have worn shirts - they have done chalkings - and the University upholds their right to assemble and have peaceful demonstrations. The Admin have been supportive of GLBT students - the University community, as a whole, has embraced this issue wholeheartedly. I really hate the press because they really like to only shed light on half of a story. If you guys want to debate church and state, sure absolutely. But stating the position of the University out of context is highly unacceptable IMHO. The name of this thread in itself disgusts me as an SGA official, as a student, and as an ally and supporter of 3 years to TRUTH! Please go back and read my posts and relevant links for the FULL STORY on SHU and GLBT issues. | |||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 2277 Registered: 6-2003 |
Accusing someone of Catholic bashing and then offering comments about Guiliani as proof is preposterous. I'm sorry but declaring you're "out of this thread", without apologizing for your baseless accusations, is an act of cowardice. | |||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 6736 Registered: 4-1997  |
I think we need a MOL confession booth where people can confess to Father Nohero.
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| Nicholas Holmes Citizen Username: Downthedoor Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2005 |
As a Seton Hall student who was very much involved with TRUTH over this last year, I could not hold off not posting any longer. I grew up in Indiana (among other places), and was attracted to the school because of its diplomacy program. When I visited the school after being accepted, I was somewhat uneasy about attending the university. However, after talking to students (the student who filed the lawsuit among them), I decided to attend Seton Hall. I believe that as a private university, the school has a right to deny TRUTH. However, I believe that right was waived when the university included sexual orientation in their non-discrimination policy. In my eyes, they either allow TRUTH or get rid of the sexual orientation clause in the policy. That is one of the things that trouble me about the ruling of the lawsuit. They way I read the ruling (and I am not claiming to have ANY legal expertise), the schools non-discrimination policy is not a contract with students and the university is free to break it. They are also free to break New Jersey law if it conflicts with the teachings of the church. So what is to stop them from not allow gay people or Muslims or any other group covered in their NDP from residing in dorms? Or even attending the university? Where is the line? Another thing that troubles me is that the university stated that no group can be formed based solely on sexual orientation (the reason for denying the group in the first place), then the university goes on to propose a group solely based on sexual orientation, as long as it is under the powers of the administration. All we want is to be treaty equal. No other group has the kind of supervision the university proposed, and there are many other groups that are not supportive of the catholic teachings. The only logical reason the university is refusing to allow this group is fear. Fear that its donors will no longer give money. Fear that the hardliners in the church will shun the university. Fear that parents will not allow their children to attend the university. In the words of Mr. Roosevelt, “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.” Truer words have never been spoken. | |||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 204 Registered: 4-2005 |
Very nice to see you're back Nick! Great Post  | |||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 146 Registered: 2-2005 |
Well I havn't heard that one since 2nd grade. But seriously...Does your paid municipal job allow for unlimited private internet use? I know most private companies limit private usage at work, but some allow it...But I figured a tax based entity would restrict it as wasteful to taxpayers? Honestly be sarcastic on your own time. |
tallis