| Author | Message | ||
     CageyD Citizen Username: Cageyd Post Number: 328 Registered: 6-2003 |
mark, What guarantees - and by that I mean - what finanical or legal consequences will be faced by the developer if he rips down his buildings and then fails to develop the property in a resaonsable period of time e.g Beifus, Rug STore, SOPAC. ANother abandoned site in town is unacceptable. I think the BOT would be protecting the citizens of SO to add riders to all approvals -if not too late already - statin g that baring Acts of God, the project must be completed by a certain date. OTherwise significant fines and penalties will take place equivelent to property taxes in duration and amount. | ||
| Two Sense Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 246 Registered: 7-2004 |
Sheena Collum SHU: You may be correct about right about closed BoT sessions. However, under the Open Public Meetings Act of New Jersey, there are intentionally very limited circumstances when matters may be dealt with in "executive session." And, voicing opposition to a retailer being allowed impede the largest redevelopment project in town, or advocating for an expeditious start of a delayed project hardly would qualify as requiring a closed session under N.J. statutes. http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=103333933&Depth=2&dep th=2&expandheadings=on&headingswithhits=on&hitsperheading=on&infobase=statutes.n fo&record={343F}&softpage=Doc_Frame_PG42 | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2028 Registered: 4-2002 |
CageyD: Good question and it has been asked. However, I would prefer to get the offical answer from the village attorney or administrator rather than possibly make a misstatement on this. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1167 Registered: 3-2003 |
Firstly, I'm guessing that South Orange is the only municipality in the United States that has a public message board where a public official gives instant feedback to the residents. Dave furnishes the message board and Mark Rosner supplies the feedback. If there are any other towns/cities that have this, they must be less than a handful, if any. Cagey D - I raised a similar question a little while ago. I suggested that there should have been a reversion clause in the agreement with the developer, which is pretty much standard. A nightmare scenario is what happened in Asbury Park. There, in the 80's when things were booming along the Jersey shore, a developer from Connecticut was given the redevelopment rights to all of Asbury's beachfront. He begin construction, building a steel skeleton. Then the real estate market headed south and the redeveloper declared bankruptcy. Nothing could be done for over ten years while the developer was in Bankruptcy Court. The steel skeleton stood there for over 10 years and Asbury Park's hands were tied until the matter was finally straightened out. Now you finally have a redevelopment which was the subject of a story recently in the Star Ledger. I hope our lawyer(s) can protect us in this event. | ||
| Jim Murphy Citizen Username: Jimmurphy Post Number: 183 Registered: 5-2001 |
TwoSense: Don't underestimate the cost of an onsite construction supervisor and the support of an ongoing construction site - ie fencing, dumpsters, port-a-johns, phones, security, financing costs. What good does it do the developer to have a building ready, into which he has sunk millions of dollars, without a rent-paying tenant to occupy it? No supermarket operator is going to open until that deck is built. Just because we're impatient, that doesn't mean that the developer and supermarket operator are. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2548 Registered: 5-2001  |
Jim, How did Shop Rite operate for all those years without a deck? The issue here is that the Village seems to now have a new "scapegoat" to take the blame for the perpetual delays. First it was Shop Rite, then it was the developer, then it was the environmental contamination, then it was title of the property, then it was the developer's agreement, now it is the parking deck. If/when construction begins on the deck I can forsee a million other "issues" that will cause additional delays (just look at the SOPAC fiasco). The supermarket project is nothing more than an interior renovation and is completely independent. Perhaps we should wait for the train station construction to complete before the market opens also??? Has title for the Market property transferred? Is SOMEONE paying property taxes again on the property? If so, why wouldn't the developer/operator want the project to start ASAP? | ||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 132 Registered: 2-2005 |
Is Shop Rite liquors going to close for good? Or will they be redeveloped? | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 184 Registered: 4-2005  |
2 Cents - Link doesn't seem to work but I believe anything with contracts and monetary issues are in closed session which would further solidify why people always throw around that we need more transparency. I TOTALLY AGREE - but I know a lot of the stuff we all complain about can't be debated in public because that's a huge liability for the town. I also believe (Trustee Rosner correct me if I'm wrong) that S.O. is one of the only municipalities in all of New Jersey to release closed meeting minutes to the public after whatever was being discussed has been finalized. re: "And, voicing opposition to a retailer being allowed impede the largest redevelopment project in town, or advocating for an expeditious start of a delayed project hardly would qualify as requiring a closed session under N.J. statutes." Yeah - I understand but I believe it would all be "relevant" to contracts and such. | ||
| Jim Murphy Citizen Username: Jimmurphy Post Number: 184 Registered: 5-2001 |
Um - Shop Rite had a lot. That lot will go away as soon as the deck goes under construction. No operator is going to want to open a supermarket without a dedicated parking lot - I know I wouldn't. I've seen the renderings for the supermarket and don't believe that it's just an interior renovation as you describe. Also, I don't mean to be an apologist for anyone. It has taken a longer time than it should have to get this project done, but we are where we are now. Expecting the developer to behave against his own interests just because our patience has run out is not reasonable. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2549 Registered: 5-2001 |
Kings in Maplewood operates without a dedicated Parking lot. According to Mark above "The shell of the market will remain the same." So, my questions remain if title has transferred & if SOMEONE is paying property taxes for the site now? | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 186 Registered: 4-2005 |
I don't think you can accurately compare Maplewood's parking situation to ours. | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 300 Registered: 1-2004  |
Two Sense: The following link contains minutes from a Legal Committee meeting where I challenged the use of closed sessions and the lack of those session minutes. http://howard-levison.com/Debate1-Question2-legal-committee-minutes.pdf Sheena - they still have not released minutes since 2002 even in a redacted form. | ||
| Jim Murphy Citizen Username: Jimmurphy Post Number: 185 Registered: 5-2001 |
Come on - don't argue just for the sake of arguing. Your focus on the word "dedicated" is just that, in my opinion. The lot for Kings is right across the street, and albeit not "dedicated" solely to Kings, it certainly provides adequate parking. Where would you park your car to shop at the new market if the current lot was a construction site? | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2029 Registered: 4-2002 |
Shop-Rite Liquors plans to re-open as soon as they find suitable space. Sheena: I know that we are better about releasing closed session minutes better than most municipalities. Jim: Glad you pointed out to MHD that they had a parking lot. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2550 Registered: 5-2001 |
Come on - The NJ Transit lot and the lot behind Washington Mutual are significantly larger than the lot across from Kings in Maplewood. There is also the lot by library. Remember, the new Market is NOT like Shop Rite in Livingston where people will come out with wagons full of food. It is more analogous to Kings in Maplewood where people will typically have 1 or 2 bags of groceries. A parking lot/deck is not a "showstopper". | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2551 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mark, Since you are reading the thread: Has title transferred & is SOMEONE paying property taxes for the site now? | ||
| Jim Murphy Citizen Username: Jimmurphy Post Number: 186 Registered: 5-2001 |
MHD - the NJ Transit lot that is packed with commuter's vehicles? The Washington Mutual lot that is across South Orange Avenue (a major county road) and behind other buildings? That's real appealing to a supermarket operator.  | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2030 Registered: 4-2002 |
MHD: Kings has stated they would never open a market again without dedicated parking but clearly the lot across the street from Kings is used mostly for Kings and the movie theater. It is impossible to park there in the evening and I usually avoid going to that market because of the lack of parking there. You were the one who originally used the term "shell". I was just going along with that terminolgy because the outside is going to remain the same. There will be extensive renovations inside. Bottom line is they have projected that it will take 6 - 8 months time to renovate. Jim: MHD loves to argue. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2552 Registered: 5-2001 |
What was that you were saying: "don't argue just for the sake of arguing?"  | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2553 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mark, Why are you not answering the question: Has title transferred & is SOMEONE paying property taxes for the site now? | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2031 Registered: 4-2002 |
MHD: Washington Mutual lot is usually full plus it is metered parking. Most people do not want to pay to park to go shopping at a grocery store. If it was my millions going into a project, I would say, ok we wait three more months to make sure we have adequate parking rather than take a chance. Clearly it makes sense to the developer and operator to wait and I think it is the right decision although I don't like having another delay. As for the property transfer, I will wait for the village president to give his next update as to where that stands. I do not think it is complete as of yet. | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 1234 Registered: 8-2002 |
I have lived here 4.5 years -- never gone into Kings in Maplewood and can't imagine even shopping there for anything more than milk, perhaps if I was at the movie theatre -- b/c the parking is so difficult and it would be so inconvenient to get groceries to the car. Its no better in SO Village, I'd say actually worse if the parking garage isn't done. I can't imagine walking several blocks to the new market and several blocks back -- really for anything (since I have a choice). IMO -- without convenient parking, the supermarket would be a goner in a few months. STILL -- what is the delay in moving forward? Pete | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2555 Registered: 5-2001 |
Pete, I actually love the Kings in Maplewood...it's quick to get in & out (*usually*) and they have great produce. I completely agree that parking is necessary as a LONG TERM solution for the South Orange Market, but in the SHORT TERM, getting ridding of that hideous eyesore (vacant board-up old Shop Rite) ASAP should be the biggest priority. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 189 Registered: 4-2005 |
MHD - how do you suggest you do that? It's hard enough to bring businesses to S.O. for reasons brought up before. If a developer says he's a go once there is adequate parking facilities, there's only so much anyone can do. Unless waiting for a developer who says they don't need adequate parking comes along and decides to play Russian roulette with his money. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 1139 Registered: 5-2004  |
MHD, that may be your concern, but as a busienss owner, the proprietor is concerned about income. It does no one any good if the market opens, has little buiness because of the lack of parking, and ends up shutting down for lack of business. Running a store that size is not cheap. I doubt it could survive (even for a few months) on the commuter bread-and-milk trade. I apprecaite and agree with your desire to have a market in that space. To have ANYTHING in that space. But now that it seems something is happening, let's not blow it by trying to force it to open before the owners are ready. As for Shoprite Liquors, I can apprecaite teir not wanting to vascate too quickly. Basically, they're going to be shutting down. That businessis somsone's livelihood. Closing costs people real money. <thread_drift_alert> BTW, intresting, slightly tangential, Supreme Court decision today about the power of governments to sieze private property for private development. Essentially, if a town designates your block as a redevelopment zone, they can force you to sell your house and move so that they can give (or sell) the land to a private developer. How nice... Odd to see it was backed by the "liberal" wing of the court. Scalia, Rehnquist and Thomas disented with O'Connor. http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20050623/ap_on_go_su_co/ scotus_seizing_property | ||
| Two Sense Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 249 Registered: 7-2004 |
mrosner, Jim Murphy, peteglider, and other proponents for delaying the market renovations: If the critical path for the market renovation is now the parking deck (awaiting the departure of the liquor store and demolition of the Vose Street buildings), how will shoppers access the parking deck prior to completion of the condo complex that will engulf the deck? Let's face it, from the first day of demolition, the parcel behind the Shop Rite will become a hazardous construction site for at least 18 months. Does the BoT actually believe that shoppers will be pushing their wagons filled with portabello mushrooms, brie, baguettes, and kids into a parking deck surrounded by a construction site for a five-story building? Safety requirements will trump any attempt to access the deck, assuming it even can be completed prior to the building of which it's an integral element. Does the village and parking authority have a written, vetted plan for this major retailer's parking -- prior to completion of the New Market development? | ||
| Two Sense Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 250 Registered: 7-2004 |
Sheena Collum SHU: If you want to learn about when an "executive session" is permitted by N.J. law, copy and paste all of the components of this link into your browser: 10:4-12. Meetings open to public; exceptions http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=103336094&Depth=2&dep th=2&expandheadings=on&headingswithhits=on&hitsperheading=on&infobase=statutes.n fo&record={3474}&softpage=Doc_Frame_PG42 | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2032 Registered: 4-2002 |
Two sense: Nice twist. Nobody is a proponent of delaying the market. Just because we understand the logic and why there is a delay does not mean we are in favor of it. The developer addressed how your concerns would be handled. He had to satisfy the market operator too that there would be a safe way for the shoppers to go to and from the parking lot to the market. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2557 Registered: 5-2001 |
Two Sense, PLAN???? In South Orange? Surely you jest.....  Your point is dead on. The Market is just one component & the parking deck will be surrounded by residential/retail units, which will supposedly be under construction for some time after the Market is open. | ||
| Two Sense Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 252 Registered: 7-2004 |
Never mind "satisfy[ing] the market operator too that there would be a safe way for the shoppers to go to and from the parking lot to the market." The village (planning, building, fire, and police) and shoppers will have to be satisfied that it's safe. Since the BoT repeatedly has cited a market opening by Thanksgiving, by Christmas, and now you, by Spring, do the VILLAGE and PARKING AUTHORITY have a written, vetted plan for this major retailer's parking -- prior to completion of the New Market development? | ||
| Two Sense Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 253 Registered: 7-2004 |
Sorry, my caps lock prematurely released. Do the VILLAGE and PARKING AUTHORITY have a WRITTEN, VETTED PLAN for this major retailer's parking -- PRIOR to COMPLETION of the New Market development? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 7833 Registered: 1-2003  |
Given that construction always takes longer than you expect, it doesn't sound like the projected opening date of the market is realistic, if it hinges upon the completion of the parking deck. | ||
| Minimalist Citizen Username: Minimalist Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thread drift. Rastro writes: "BTW, intresting, slightly tangential, Supreme Court decision today about the power of governments to sieze private property for private development. Essentially, if a town designates your block as a redevelopment zone, they can force you to sell your house and move so that they can give (or sell) the land to a private developer. How nice... Odd to see it was backed by the "liberal" wing of the court. Scalia, Rehnquist and Thomas disented with O'Connor." Why is that odd? Typically, the conservatives/market liberals (in theory, you wouldn't know it from this current federal admin) believe in strong individual and property rights. The liberal (today's usage) thought is that central planning is always better than individual market decisions, because people need educated government officals to plan the big stuff. Seems to make sense along those lines. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2559 Registered: 5-2001 |
To bring this thread back on topic, Two Sense's question bears repeating: Do the VILLAGE and PARKING AUTHORITY have a WRITTEN, VETTED PLAN for this major retailer's parking -- PRIOR to COMPLETION of the New Market development? | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2565 Registered: 5-2001 |
bump... | ||
| SO Refugee Citizen Username: So_refugee Post Number: 560 Registered: 2-2005  |
Where's DuBowy been since the election? | ||
| Thom-as Hat Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 7879 Registered: 1-2003 |
I think MHD's question is excellent. I hope someone who knows can answer. Without an answer, it doesn't look as if the plan for the market to come soon is realistic. | ||
| Jeff DuBowy Supporter Username: Jeffd Post Number: 112 Registered: 11-2003 |
I am not aware of any written plan for parking on the discussed site. To my knowledge - nothing has been presented to the PARKING AUTHORITY. I have expressed similiar concerns about safety and parking during the staging and constuction process. BTW - I'm still here. Been active and attending my SOPA duties, DMC meetings and a few trustee meetings. I have obviously been absent from the MOL boards. Feel free to em me - as I have not been watching the boards closely. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2569 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jeff, Welcome back to MOL. I think it's terrible that the PARKING AUTHORITY has not been presented any information or plan regarding parking at the "Coming Soon" market. I missed tonight's BOT meeting...any update on Beifus, SOPAC or the Market (and the PLAN for parking)? or did Bill give his usual response that "we will see alot of activity in September"? | ||
| Jeff DuBowy Supporter Username: Jeffd Post Number: 113 Registered: 11-2003 |
MHD - Missed it too. Sorry no info. |
