| Author | Message | ||
     GlassJoe Citizen Username: Glass_joe Post Number: 28 Registered: 6-2005  |
Last night I went to Voro Must admit I had a blast, But when they brought the bill I was left aghast. A simple little dinner for my lady friend and I, Was mired with deception More specifically a lie. I read the tab my heart went still, They thought I would'nt notice 20% gratuity added to the bill. *It seems after 10pm one is expected to automatically cough up an extra 20% to dine at Voro. I am a generous tipper. Have to say it is an insult to customers to do such a thing. What's up with this. | ||
| Stevef Citizen Username: Stevef Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2005  |
Ouchie. Hope the service was great. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 819 Registered: 3-2002 |
That does seem odd...have to admit that we don't dine late very often these days | ||
| buzzsaw Citizen Username: Buzzsaw Post Number: 2297 Registered: 5-2001  |
Yes. This has happened to me too. I say, "oh you only want 20% ok - I usually tip 23%". What really sucks is when they sneak that on w/o telling you and you tip on top of the 20%. That is a crime. | ||
| composerjohn Citizen Username: Composerjohn Post Number: 364 Registered: 8-2004  |
very slimy - I might understand for a party of six or more, but two people? Strange. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 413 Registered: 7-2004  |
Glass Joe, Do you know if this 20% is also added to the bill if I were just sitting at the bar? Or is this only for those sitting down to dinner? It is strange that they would do this only after 10pm. I wonder what the reason is that this is only added later in the evening. Do people who go out after 10 tip that much less than those who dine before 10? | ||
| Matt Foley Citizen Username: Mattfoley Post Number: 338 Registered: 6-2004  |
I thought the service there was great. I too tip well. Maybe the staff has been getting "stiffed". That seems like a really strange policy. Especially for two people. What kind of upscale operation are they running? | ||
| marinab Citizen Username: Marinab Post Number: 216 Registered: 8-2002 |
That is plain weird. I've never heard of such a policy except when there's parties of 8 or more. That was the deal when I was a waitress, certainly. | ||
| GlassJoe Citizen Username: Glass_joe Post Number: 29 Registered: 6-2005 |
Oh, I failed to mention that the server who was great, complained about the lousy tippers who frequent the place. This was after my inquiry about the bill. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 1783 Registered: 1-2004  |
I would call and ask the manager if this is their policy. Maybe they're unaware this is happening... | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 1298 Registered: 5-2004  |
If it's not on the menu or posted somewhere obvious, it's illegal too. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 5174 Registered: 5-2001  |
Glassjoe, Love the poem. It's like a Dr. Zuess story for grownups. Did the wait staff have stars on their bellies? | ||
| mary brenner Citizen Username: Marybrenner Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2005 |
I tip on the level of service and for a restaurant to add a 20% tip is unbelievable! They have a nerve. I have eaten there and the service is OK not 20% ok! What if you choose not to tip? What happens then? If they are getting stiffed then the owners should approach the people as they leave and ask if they were satisfied with the service. If they were not then they should fix it and if they were and left 10% then that is the way it goes. | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 2117 Registered: 11-2001  |
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| Taurus5208 Citizen Username: Taurus5208 Post Number: 90 Registered: 10-2004 |
I agree with Mary. A tip is supposed to be a "thank you" for good service, and not something that is expected or part of the bill. I find this absurd that Voro is including a 20% tip in the bill after 10pm, no matter how many people are dining. I have heard of some restaurants adding a 15% tip in for large parties, but that is totally different than Voro seemingly trying to "get one by" the customer...especially if this policy isn't posted on the menu. | ||
| David Citizen Username: Dbk Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2004 |
I'd like thank those of you who have patronized my establishment over the last few months. I appreciate your continued support. I have taken all of the constructive feedback that I've seen on MOL, good and bad, to heart and have implemented as many changes as possible. Regarding the service charge policy that I implemented as of this past Friday night, it is, unfortunately, something that is absolutely necessary. First, let me clarify what the policy is. Thursday through Saturday, there is a 20% service charge for food and drink ordered after 10pm. Tipping beyond that is, of course, not necessary. The policy is displayed conspicuously on every menu distributed after 10pm and written notices are dropped on the bar and at every table in the lounge areas at 10pm. If some customers missed the obvious notices, I will add additional signage so there is no confusion in the future. The problem is not that we have "lousy tippers." The problem is that late night on the weekends we have many customers who do not tip at all. I will illustrate the problem by sharing actual examples of what has happened. Example 1: At around midnight, a bill came to $202.60. The customer left $203.00 and told the server to keep the change. When the server politely asked if there was a problem with the service, the customer replied that everything was great - he just doesn't tip - he doesn't feel it is necessary to tip in a wealthy town like South Orange. I then intervened and explained to the customer that servers typically live off of their tips and it is customary to leave something, anything, as gratuity. His reply was that he left 40 cents and that if the waitress wanted to go home with him, he'd be happy to tip her more (profanity omitted). Example 2: Six individuals were in the bar/lounge upstairs having cocktails at around 1am. The tab came to $79.00. They put down exactly $79 on the bar, the bartender counted it in front of them and informed them that there was only $79. One of the customers said that "There was a dollar in there for you, bitch - we gave you $80 - give me the money back and I'll count it." He then ripped the cash out of her hands. The bartender came to me, crying, and asked me to go deal with the problem. When I arrived at the bar, the customers had left - and ran out without paying their bill. I can give several other examples of this type of behavior, some of which are much more appalling than what I've noted above. These are not isolated incidents. They are regular occurrences. My servers and bartenders are not "bitches" and they do not work for free. I cannot address this personally every time because there have been too many incidents. The service charge policy is meant to send a clear message to certain individuals that if they do not intend to tip, they are not welcome in my establishment. Policies have to be applied uniformly, not selectively, so in the process of doing so, I apologize that some of you who know that tipping is customary are being affected by this. The intention is not to offend you. If you believe that service is not satisfactory at any time and a 20% service charge is not appropriate, please bring it to my or management's attention immediately and it will be addressed. As a long time resident of South Orange, I am terribly embarrassed by what has been going on. If I had not experienced this first-hand, I would not believe that people in this area are capable of being so inappropriate. As many of you know, I am not new to the restaurant business, and I have never had to implement such a policy elsewhere. I simply cannot tolerate the type of behavior that I've seen and I am trying to eliminate it. I would prefer not engaging in further discussion about this policy, or the underlying problem, on-line. I welcome the opportunity to discuss this in person with any of you. Please call me or come down to the restaurant to speak with me. Thanks, David | ||
| mary brenner Citizen Username: Marybrenner Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2005 |
Someone should call Voro for their side of the story it is only fair. | ||
| David Citizen Username: Dbk Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2004 |
Mary - please see my post immediately preceding yours. It explains part of the problem. The story goes much deeper than what I am able to address on-line. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2615 Registered: 5-2001  |
Why not simply implement a 15% "service charge" since that is the customary tip for decent service? People can then increase it further, if they want. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1090 Registered: 12-2003  |
David: What you described happens on occasion at EVERY establishment where tipping is part of the equation. I have a hard time believing, however, that this is happening with any frequency at Voro. Your restaurant is always packed, and it's safe to say you have the highest average check of any restaurant in South Orange. I can't imagine your people are getting stiffed on tips that often. I've spent quite a bit of money at your restaurant in the brief time you've been open, and I appreciate you coming on here to talk about the complaint, but this is a policy I can't agree with. I frankly find it offensive -- and this coming from someone who rarely if ever tips less than 20%. If you change the policy, please post here and let us know. Until then, I'm taking my business elsewhere. | ||
| composerjohn Citizen Username: Composerjohn Post Number: 369 Registered: 8-2004 |
or how about raise the prices of the food to include tip. So, for example, a $20 item would cost $24. This isn't a great solution, but it would solve the tipping issue. (just make sure to say the tip is included in the price). | ||
| mary brenner Citizen Username: Marybrenner Post Number: 16 Registered: 7-2005 |
david it is horrible that anyone would treat a waiter/waitress/bartensder in such a rude manner. I usually tip 15-20% and sometimes more. My question is this if someone feels they do not want to leave a 20% tip or a tip at all because they feel the service did not warren it you would make an adjustment? I personally have been to your restaurant several times and have found every aspect to be well above average. I feel you are a wonderful business to have in town. You clearly are trying to create an upscale environment and in my opinion you have. I would have been disgusted if I heard a customer speak in the matter you have explained and I agreee keep them out at any cost. You have done a great job in town and I hope you have continued success! I also hope the time comes when you are comfortable removing the manditory 20% because 15% seems to be more affordable but under the circumstances that you have explained I understand the need and will pay it after 10 pm. thank you for you explanation. Mary B. | ||
| Nonymous Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 8386 Registered: 1-2003  |
Maybe this is the start of a trend, and it will spread beyond Voro. I think if all customers understand the rules of a restaurant up front, they can agree to them easily. I think it can work well. Rather than raising the prices as composerjohn suggests, just state (as David says he already does) that they add the tip to the final bill. This is what they do in France. You get a $20 meal, they add 15%, and the bill comes to $11.50. (I'd use the symbol for Euros, but I don't have one.) Of course, one big difference between French and American waiters and waitresses is that in France, it is a respectable profession. Waiters there are extremely proud to be doing what they are doing, and it shows. So I never hear stories about it being necessary to complain and ask that the tip be removed from the bill in a restaurant in France. This system would take the guesswork out of paying for the bill, which I find to be a burden for me as a customer. I'd like to read the bill and pay it, flat out. Of course, this is wishful thinking. I don't expect the US to adopt this system any time soon. We could argue over whether it should be 15% or 20% but that's a small point. Tom Reingold | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 826 Registered: 3-2002 |
Actually, it isn't a small point. 20% is too high for a mandatory service charge. It leaves little room for discretion. Punishing all of us who are good and tip properly for the sins of the few puts you in the same class as stores that won't let anyone carry a backpack because some people are thieves. It's just a low class way to run a business. Take the offenders and invite them to never darken your door again, but don't treat us all like suspected cheapskates. I'm very sorry to hear that you are being taken advantage of, but don't sympathize when you react to it by taking advantage of others by making a fairly generous tip mandatory. I'll continue to be a sometimes customer, but not after 10 PM, as I avoid anyplace that starts with the assumption that I might be a thief or a scoundrel. | ||
| Stevef Citizen Username: Stevef Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2005 |
Just tip less at all other times to make up for Thurs-Sat after 10. | ||
| Kristen Williamson Citizen Username: Kris219 Post Number: 46 Registered: 4-2005 |
I just spoke to someone who works at Voro and he said that they add the 20% at 11 pm and that at 11 there is a paper attatched to the menus which says it. I am defiantely not saying that GlassJoe didn't see this paper, but apparently the above is what their policy supposedly is. I heard that the reason they did this was because many people came in for late drinks and snacks and would only tip like 5%, so to fix the problem they added the 20% gratuity charge. Apparently they also don't mean to offend people by that, but I would be offended if I had poor service somewhere and they expected 20%. I only tip more than 15% if it is really good service, so if they want to charge 20%, they better be delivering great service. I haven't been there yet, but I've only heard great things so far, so I guess they are doing their part to fill that 20% tip. | ||
| snshirsch Citizen Username: Snshirsch Post Number: 370 Registered: 1-2003 |
Who are these late night weekend customers who don't tip? Does the crowd change to a younger, college aged crowd after 10:00? I didn't have the impression that this was your customer base. My wife and I usually do not sit down to a meal after 10:00 anytime, maybe a drink or two. Would this mean if we came in at 8:30 for dinner that anything ordered after 10:00 (if we were still there would include the 20% surcharge)? I almost agree with the higher prices, but not for everything at all times to replace a tip but rather if you are seated after 10:00 then your menu does not have a note, but lists higher prices. I guess I'm just amazingly shocked that someone could leave without tipping (at this type of establishment) if there was not some sort of problem, at least without notifying the management. | ||
| Nonymous Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 8390 Registered: 1-2003 |
susan1014, I think 20% is a bit presumptuous, and I would probably recommend they lower their "mandatory tipping" to 15%. On the other hand, it really is a small difference. After a $50 bill for dinner, does $2.50 make a difference to me? (A 15% tip is $7.50 and a 20% tip is $10.) No, $2.50 is pocket change to me, and the waitress can use it better than I can. I think what matters a heck of a lot more is whether they're going to take a service charge from us or hope that we offer a tip. That's the big issue. Tom Reingold | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 591 Registered: 10-2004 |
I think the person who left without paying their tip should be arrested. I think the person who left a .40 cent tip should be banned from the restaurant. I don't think that the rest of us should be punished for other people's misdeeds. Personally, I feel that if you want to earn more money just charge more for the food after 10PM. Most restaurants in our area don't stay open late, and if you want good food late at night, I think most people will gladly pay extra for it. So I gues it all comes down to how you advertise yourselves. The way Voro advertised it, the most loyal customers somehow seem put off. I'd say Voro isn't doing something right. | ||
| Two Sense Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 349 Registered: 7-2004 |
If a restaurant implements a mandatory, minimum tip, it should be conspicuous (including the waiter pointing it out) and for no more than 15% -- allowing patrons to decide if the service justifies a higher tip. A mandatory 20% tip is merely an excuse for poor service, since there's no incentive to provide superior service. To the extent that Voro has encountered problems primarily among late-night bar/lounge drinking patrons, maybe these customers perceive that the liquor, wine, and beer prices are high enough to cover service. Perhaps a $5 cover charge in the lounge, with a clear indication that service is included, will equate to 15% of $33 (or 20% of $25), and all of it could be redirected to Voro's waitstaff. P.S. Prior to reading this thread, I'd already heard -- second hand -- of two repeat customers deciding that they would not return to Voro with this new policy. | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 765 Registered: 4-2004  |
Dave- It is good that you look out for your servers, but two points come to mind: 1) Imposing a service/gratuity charge is usually done based on party size, not time of service. While imposing the "tip" on some who might not leave any, you may be insulting the majority who do. Based upon the cost of a meal at Voro, which is certainly in line with the quality of the meal, I would guess that more often than not your patrons will do the right thing regarding the wait staff. 2) Imposing a 20% gratuity on a bar tab at any time is a bit excessive. I worked in the business for some years and bartenders rarely make 15% of their receipts. | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 1304 Registered: 8-2002 |
considering talk of SO becoming a "restaurant town" -- the leading 3 threads for a few days are all bashing restaurants, at least 2 of them (Bunnys and Voro) have a pretty good rep otherwise. must not be an election going on... /p | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 92 Registered: 6-2005 |
I am impressed that the owner of the establishment cares enough about feedback from the public to read MOL...and actually took the time to provide the rationale for the policy. (More business owners should keep in touch with their public.) Frankly, the issue to me seems to be more with the clientel if he is to be believed. It seems like he is responsive to concerns and will be posting more conspicuous signs, though I wonder if the guys who left without paying would care anyway. Sounds like they were theives. I too like to tip based on service, but if know the rules in advance, that's usually ok. I guess I wonder if this problem is unique to Voro. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 415 Registered: 7-2004 |
I don't think that 20% is out of the question. I usually tip more than that. The servers at Voro make their living off of tips. If people are not tipping than I agree with this policy. It would be diferent if waiters were paid a higher wage, but because they recieve tips most of the time they make much less than minimum wage. If you don't want to tip, then pick up food to go, don't waste the time of the servers. | ||
| SO Refugee Citizen Username: So_refugee Post Number: 595 Registered: 2-2005  |
How much do you think Voro will lose based on the policy? More than the staff lost in the tips. How often did it happen? 2% or 20% of the time? If it's 2%, you just live with it. As a customer - who tends to tip well - I want the choice on how much to tip without having to get management involved. I do wonder about the ominous "underlying problem" mentioned...is there an elephant in the room? | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 1829 Registered: 7-2003 |
[deleted by Brett's request] | ||
| David Citizen Username: Dbk Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2004 |
In an effort to address the concerns noted in this thread, I would be happy to explore alternatives to the existing policy. First, I understand that some of you are having a difficult time believing that the problem is as prevalent as it is, but I would not have taken such a measure unless it was necessary. I make no money whatsoever from having implemented this policy. In fact, I stand to alienate people, as is obvious by several of the posts, and I would not put my business at risk like this unless I believed the problem was serious enough to warrant immediate action. I only seek to ensure that the customers frequenting my establishment treat my employees, and my business, with respect. I would like to discuss the options that exist and hear back from you so that I can establish a satisfactory policy. The majority of the suggestions fall into one of three categories: (1) eliminate the policy altogether, (2) lower the charge to 15%, and (3) charge a door fee for entering the bar and lounge (although the problem is in the dining room as well). Re: #1, eliminating the policy of adding a service charge is something that I would gladly consider as long as I have something in its place that will adequately address the issue. Furthermore, once the problem is under control, I will be happy to lift the policy altogether. #2 is fine with me. I have no problem lowering the charge to 15% if that makes a difference to you. If service is not satisfactory, I would ask that you alert management (me, Darcy or Dawn) and we will be happy to lower or eliminate the service charge on a case by case basis. Someone from the management team is always at the restaurant to speak with customers. #3 is also fine with me, but I'd like to know what would be a reasonable door fee for customers who come in at night (Thurs, Fri & Sat only). I would appreciate MOL members working with me on this. The policy I'm trying to implement is not intended as an offense against the community, but merely as a means to ensure that the quality of the establishment is maintained. The issue is not about "tipping" - it's about respect and maintaining a clientele that knows how to behave appropriately. Enforcing a dress code over the past few weeks was the first step. This is the second. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks, David | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 828 Registered: 3-2002 |
Sorry to hear that some of the hip don't tip...Not sure I want to meet your late night clientele if problems are that prevalent. However, to answer your question, I think that a roll back to 15% is the minimum - enforce a minimum tip rather than a standard tip. In addition, if you keep this non-standard policy, every server should tell every patron that a basic gratuity is included in the bill, and should explicitly say something if it seems like someone has double tipped (we may love you, but we probably didn't mean to tip 30+%!). Don't expect people to read every word on the menu -- sometimes it doesn't happen. Now, for my information, what dress policy are you enforcing? I'd rather know to change or stay away than be told at the door. (South Orange is actually the only place where we've been turned away from a restaurant for a dress code violation in about 20 years!) Thanks for being brave enough to discuss this here. Looking forward to our next (earlier evening) visit. | ||
| Mayor McCheese Supporter Username: Mayor_mccheese Post Number: 419 Registered: 7-2004 |
I was once turned down at a South Orange establishment for not having a collared shirt. I have been to that establishment once 2 times since then, and not really be choice. (This place no longer enforces this policy.) That was three years ago. And I was dressed in a long sleeve shirt (not a t-shirt) and nice pants. | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 1833 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dave I'd like to delete my post, my opinion should not affect a business in town, I will call the restaurant and express my displeasure of the added gratuity. |
