| Author | Message | ||
     Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 1663 Registered: 1-2004  |
Steel Love it! LOL | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 1664 Registered: 1-2004 |
Bob- I agree about the house I posted a picture of! I couldn't believe it was built in Madison! | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 68 Registered: 6-2005 |
JTA- Not sure of the name of the street. But I was riding around one day and found this horrific cluster of McMansions off Walker Rd. You go up Walker from Gregory. Go up to the top of the hill. By the stop sign, turn right, and go a few blocks and then turn into one of the streets on the left, before the turn off into the reservation. Just drive around in there, working your way in. They are back there somewhere. You will be horrified by what you see. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 1215 Registered: 5-2004  |
JTA< if you go up through and past the golf course, and make a left, then drive around (staying left toward the golf course) you'll see what jayjay is talking about. It's not a development, per se. it's a few random ugly new houses. | ||
| argon_smythe Citizen Username: Argon_smythe Post Number: 606 Registered: 5-2001 |
JayJay, there are two in particular that are stunning in their awfulness. They abut the reservation. I'm sure you know the ones I'm talking about. We've actually taken visitors from out of town to see them, they're so hideous. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 249 Registered: 10-2004 |
Theres an idea for more town income. Guided Pulte tours. | ||
| Two Sense Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 320 Registered: 7-2004 |
How about a contest to see who can post the most out-of-place, neighborhood-insensitive 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and 21st Century homes in South Orange. Montrose has some beauties, as does otherwise beautiful Wyoming Avenue. | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 159 Registered: 3-2004 |
I think the point is, that the homes built during the 30's ,40's, 50's, 60's, 70's were built under a different situation - downsizing, costs, post depression, subdividing, etc. Not all of these homes were built in bad taste or were built poorly. Some actually were done with great quality of construction and design sense. Some of the more recent homes that have been constructed do not use the best quality of construction nor do they have design sense as might have been achieved with an architect. They are still costly to construct, are large, not downsized and out of place in this village. There are two catagories - 1)houses built with design sense, character and quality of construction 2) and those that are out of scale, poorly designed and use poor construction techniques. Post pictures accordingly. The reality is that since about the past five to seven years there has been a rise in awareness and appreciation for the quality of housing stock that we do have and a desire to preserve it. Past mistakes during a different time should not be used as a defense. | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 160 Registered: 3-2004 |
I think the point is, that the homes built during the 30's ,40's, 50's, 60's, 70's were built under a different situation - downsizing, costs, post depression, subdividing, etc. Not all of these homes were built in bad taste or were built poorly. Some actually were done with great quality of construction and design sense. Some of the more recent homes that have been constructed do not use the best quality of construction nor do they have design sense as might have been achieved with an architect. They are still costly to construct, are large, not downsized and out of place in this village. There are two catagories - 1)houses built with design sense, character and quality of construction 2) and those that are out of scale, poorly designed and use poor construction techniques. Post pictures accordingly. The reality is that since about the past five to seven years there has been a rise in awareness and appreciation for the quality of housing stock that we do have and a desire to preserve it. Past mistakes during a different time should not be used as a defense. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1050 Registered: 12-2003  |
I think posting schematics to a home someone is building and highlighting the words "aluminum" and "faux" show more of a bias than a true interest in "protecting our housing stock." The assumption that old houses are of higher quality than new houses is absurd. Some old houses are of higher quality than some new houses, and vice versa. They skimped 80 years ago, and they skimp today. It all depends on who you get to build your house, and how much you're willing to pay. The first picture posted in this thread doesn't strike me as horrific, and certainly not what I think of when I think "McMansions" (the connotation of which is rows and rows of giant homes, each indistinguishable from the next). Still wondering if anyone can answer my question: Have any historic homes in Maplewood/South Orange been knocked down to build larger, ugly homes? Anyone? Note that a big gravil pit does not count as a historic home. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 6834 Registered: 4-1997  |
Monty, My reason for posting that and highlighting those terms was because I was accused of lying about it. eg. In post prior to my posting the actual plans, James M said: "Theres no faux brick. Its the real thing. The bay windows aren't topped with aluminum." | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 71 Registered: 6-2005 |
I think we need to come to a common understanding of McMansion. It does not have to be rows and rows of similar homes. One single big box (square foot driven) house, usually constructed by a builder with no professional architectural sensitivity to surrounding homes or land, typically of vinyl, aluminum or faux something would qualify. This home definitely fits the bill. | ||
| Stevef Citizen Username: Stevef Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2005 |
Monty, If you think McMansions built of sawdust and glue are the same quality as craftsman bungalows, Dutch colonials, victorians, mediterraneans, etc. built here 80 years ago you've got a screw loose. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 8969 Registered: 5-2001 |
While I love the charm and look anyone who thinks the average 1920s house construction is better than now a days has been smoking those funny cigaretes again. I have lived in old houses all my life and owned two of them. All of them had significant settling, damaged joists because of plumbers drilling whereever they wanted. Some had what is now called undersized beams and rafters. I took a run by the future McMansion this morning out of curriosity. The house will be facing the softball/little league field, so front setbacks shouldn't be that much of an issue to the neighbors. However, I since this is a typical lot here there has to be an issue with rear setbacks. The current house seems to be built withing a few feet of the lot line and moving it any closer would make the house next to it claustiphobic at best and a dark hole at worst. My daddy use to say, "there is no accounting for taste", so I am not going to comment on the style other than to say it deosn't fit into the neighborhood, eclectic as it is. | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 161 Registered: 3-2004 |
First of all I never indicated that quality of construction is distinguishable by age. Please read my previous post again. enough said. Second of all where did the word McMansion come from? I don't care about a "label". I thought the issue is scale, streetscape and design criteria. Can you compare - - wood shingle, clapboard, etc, with aluminum or plastic siding, fake brick or stucco. - do you have a preference for hard wood flooring or carpet covering subflooring (usually containing glues etc that give off gases). - brass, copper, or plastic - a separate garage/carriage house or a garage within the structure that could also be a safety hazard - forced air or steam/hot water These and other issues have nothing to do with age but quality, but they usually do show up in the newer construction. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 6835 Registered: 4-1997 |
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| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1052 Registered: 12-2003 |
And what evidence is there to suggest that the McMansion that prompted this thread is being cheaply built? | ||
| Camnol Citizen Username: Camnol Post Number: 54 Registered: 3-2005 |
The knock-down on Wyoming, just past Mountain as you go towards Millburn, is that Maplewood or Millburn? I'm not sure where the town line is. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 8970 Registered: 5-2001 |
Camnol, the house you mention is in Millburn. Talk, eighty years ago the naturally occuring materials were better. Construction techniques often weren't what they are today. Anybody who loves a steam one pipe system has "issues".  Personally I would preffer copper piping, but would take plastic over brass or galvanized. I hate built in garages with the doors on the street side of the house. We have some friends who owned one of the first houses with an internal garage. They actually had an automatic fire door between the garage and the house. There are a lot of older stucco and brick veneer houses around here. On the brick houses count the courses. If every seventh course isn't on end, the wall is veneer. | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 162 Registered: 3-2004 |
I would prefer a one pipe steam system to forced air. I feel there are many more problems associated with forced air that I would like to avoid. (Besides is there some comform in the banging of the steam coming up?). The stucco of yesteryear will outlive the stucco of today. McMansions usually receive "the better side" toward the street with vinyl siding on the sides and rear. Many towns have ordinances against having garage doors facing the street. This one ordinance would be of great benefit to South Orange. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 1217 Registered: 5-2004 |
I'd prefer an ordinance that required houses on a major street (with a double yellow line) to have room for a turnaround. And another law that made it illegal to back out of a driveway on said roads. And while I agree that garage doors facing the road are ugly, so are a lot of people here, but we don't make laws against ugly people living here. Of all the problems we have in South Orange, this isn't one of them. But I'm sure the family that lives in the house Dave started this thread about appreciates us all weighing in on their new home. What wonderful neighbors we are. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 6837 Registered: 4-1997 |
Yeah, I should have shut up when other neighbors came to me to help. That would have made me a real prince. | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 164 Registered: 3-2004 |
You may be discussing that home in particular. I think the overall discussion initiated by that home is preservation of the South Orange we all moved here for. My involvement has always been towards preservation of the existing density and streetscape. I moved to a developed, historic, suburban village. I selected South Orange, I thought the streetscape and neighborhoods were protected by the very fact that this is an older area with little room for development and impact on the quality of the village. I moved to this area because I thought I could read this book by its cover. It was done, complete - no surprises. The items discussed are not unique to the proposed structure. Also the proposed structure seeks variances - exceptions to the rules. It therefore requires attention from the residents. | ||
| Tracey Randinelli Citizen Username: Traceyr Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2005 |
Do any neighborhoods in South Orange have any sort of official state/local historic designation? I was just reading an article in This Old House from a few months ago that talks about this issue, and it seems that while being designated a historic district can make certain types of renovations difficult, it definitely prevents the whole McMansion problem. An excerpt from the article: State and Local Designations In addition to National Register listing are the myriad designations administered by states and municipalities, the most common of which are local historic districts. Unlike their honorary counterparts, these are considered "restrictive" and require current and potential owners of old houses to weigh the pros and cons more carefully. On the upside, inclusion in a local historic district can truly accomplish a preservationist's goal of keeping her house and neighborhood intact for future generations. There are also considerable financial benefits, in the form of tax breaks that parallel those for owners of National Register-listed houses, and significantly higher resale values. In Beaufort, South Carolina, for instance, houses in the town's official historic district sold for 21 percent more, all other factors being equal, than houses not in the district, according to a 2000 report by the South Carolina Department of Archives and History. On the downside — as Rosemary Uzzo feared — inclusion in a historic district gives someone else a say in how you maintain or upgrade your property. George Thomas, an architectural historian in Philadelphia, runs up against this situation all the time. In many historic sections of town, he says, merely adding a new porch light can be prohibited. But that degree of restrictiveness may be the exception more than the rule. In most places, historic-house regulations are not all that oppressive, says Pratt Cassity, director of the University of Georgia's Center for Community Design and Preservation. He surveyed preservation commissions around the country and, based on 700 responses, found that local boards approved requested changes more than 95 percent of the time. (Of course, that may have as much to do with homeowners knowing what alterations will pass muster as it does with rubber-stamp review boards.) Even in places with vigilant historic-review boards, regulations typically end at the front door, with a home's exterior, and often only the facade. Changes that are invisible from the street, such as a rear addition that meets local zoning requirements, are likely to be approved, if they are regulated at all. To homeowners who truly care about preserving their neighborhood's architectural integrity, abiding by historic-district restrictions is worth the hassle, because the same regulations that impinge on your right to redesign your porch also protect you from a neighbor determined to bulldoze the clapboard saltbox next door and put up a vinyl-sided McMansion in its place. And the cost of making improvements starts to look a lot less daunting when you know that the taxman is footing part of the bill. I must say, though, that vinyl siding isn't always a bad thing...  | ||
| kathy Citizen Username: Kathy Post Number: 1147 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tracey, The Montrose Park Historic District is designated on the National and State Registers of Historic Places. That designation provides for another layer of review of public projects within the district. It provides no control whatsoever over private property owners. To have such control requires local ordinances. South Orange has been unwilling to put such ordinances in place. The proposed teardown of Pierson's Mill a few years back galvanized Maplewood to set up a Historic Preservation Commission. Perhaps the prospect of having houses like the the one under discussion proliferate in South Orange might move the Trustees to consider the worth of local regulation. And yes, vinyl siding is almost always a bad thing  Kevin, Thanks for the links. The top picture on the cover page of the National Trust article is of two houses on my street. The green one in front is undoubtedly the smallest house in town by far. It has been empty for over a year and is clearly slated for demolition. In the last week or two, the two big pine trees (which were way too close to the house) have been cut down. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1055 Registered: 12-2003 |
Again: Can someone please explain to me why we need special ordinances protecting our historic homes? Is there ANY effort underfoot to tear down historic homes and replace with with McMansions/PickYourTerm? THe house in this thread apparently has major structural problems, and is being torn down BY ITS OWNERS and replaced with a new home that by my estimation looks no different than a LOT of homes in South Orange, and far better than many homes in South Orange. Our homes are protected by real estate values. New Yorkers and others are streaming to South Orange and Maplewood exactly because of our homes. There are plenty of places in NJ to buy and build McMansions on the train line. There is absolutely no effort underway to buy homes in Maplewood/South Orange, tear them down, and replace them with giant cheaply built monstrosities. The economics of that make no sense whatsoever. | ||
| Dust Buster Citizen Username: Coyote Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2005 |
Kathy.....Nice to hear from you. Thank you for explaining about the Montrose Historic District. You would be very discouraged to see what has happened since you left. Despite our providing the "extra layer of protection" to Montrose by making it a historic district, more of our historic fabric has disappeared do the towns actions since you left. Have you seen pictures of "the Montrose circle"!!! I am against an Historic Commission because: 1. When the Montrose Historic District was initially promoted and got Donations we promised the doners that this was to protect the neighborhood from the Town's encroachment and would not affect what they could do to their property. 2. Boards that regulate design are often flawed with people with little knowledge about historic architecture, have their own agenda, etc. If people are interested, they should investigate what is happening in Montclair and their Historic Commission. I have been encourageing the people in the West Montrose area for years to become a historic district. This would help give people historic pride in their neighborhood. They all seem to be too busy...not interested....or something. Someday I promise to visit you.... | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 2607 Registered: 5-2001  |
Dave, I have heard that Rastro was suspended, possibly due to his post of Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 1:03 am. I know this is "your" domain & we are only guests, but was he really suspended for disagreeing with you? I hope not. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 6838 Registered: 4-1997 |
I got in late on Saturday and I basically misread the post. Access restored. Sorry, Rastro. If it means anything, I added 50 to your post count. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 1269 Registered: 5-2004 |
Dave, Thanks. that's kinda what I figured. I didn't mean it in any way as an attack on you (or on anyone). Glad to be back  | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonhw Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2004 |
Dave what do you win for various levels of posting? | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 251 Registered: 4-2005  |
Howard, didn't you hear? Dave buys drinks for everyone at Bunny's for every 100 posts, right Dave?  oh just joshin' Welcome Back Spot! | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 1809 Registered: 7-2003 |
"I got in late on Saturday and I basically misread the post" Google Translate "My bad, drunk banning" | ||
| Josh Holtz Citizen Username: Jholtz Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2004 |
Did someone say Josh? | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 252 Registered: 4-2005 |
I think that was me... but it was "just joshin'" a southern way of "just kidding"... u folks probably don't get it, lol. | ||
| talk-it-up Citizen Username: Talkitup Post Number: 165 Registered: 3-2004 |
Item No. 1: There are two types of commissions - one is Regulatory and the other Advisory. Having a Commission could serve as a resource for residents to discuss their plans and consider advice from the Commission. The Commission should be made up of experienced professionals in the design/architectural/engineering fields. Item No 2: Ordinances can be created that include guidelines that address issues of design criteria (scale and materials) without being as restrictive as some municipalities may be. The simple example would be aluminum siding/vinyl siding. They could address items that have a longer lasting impact and are more expensive to "undo". They do not need to include for example review of paint colors - but- the Commission could be available for consultation, possible suggestions or list of sources for information. Item No 3: WHAT IN THE WORLD IS SOUTH ORANGE AFRAID OF?! Talk, talk, talk! Time has passed and South Orange has created more committees to review but to date no action. Meanwhile, when Piersons Mill is threatened Maplewood rises to the challange. I think the climate, or I thought the climate in South Orange changed when the Montrose area created a grass roots effort for districting in their area because it would not happen any other way. There was great support by the new residents in the village. The Montrose Grass Roots concentrated on the State and National Registers. That is the level that the fundraising was for and that is the listing that was received. As stated there were no restrictions or review required unless public monies were used for improvements/construction - but that does not have anything to do with Municipal Regulations or Historic Commission. Districting and a Commission may also be helpful to the business district and allow tax incentives I feel a thread coming on____________________ | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 258 Registered: 4-2005 |
This may be a stretch - but if you're interested in this topic... you may be interested in this topic too http://events.shu.edu/announcements/news/165.html Everyone Come!!! You can waive to your loved ones on television and most importantly, it's a really good topic. | ||
| Alison Citizen Username: Alikoz Post Number: 111 Registered: 8-2002 |
Don't you think it is a little insensitive to post actual pictures of houses you find aesthetically/structurally inferior? I mean, what if someone walked around with a digital camera taking pics of people in the villages caught in aesthetically/structurally unappealling clothes? Someone on this board could end up living in one of those houses. I understand that there are serious concerns (rightly so) about how these homes may alter the landscape in SO/M, but should we post actual pictures and locations to make that case? Because if THAT is kosher, then I have a great snap shot of a fat guy in head-to-toe polyester that I took on the train platform this a.m.... | ||
| Pippi Supporter Username: Pippi Post Number: 1031 Registered: 8-2003  |
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| wharfrat Citizen Username: Wharfrat Post Number: 1943 Registered: 6-2001 |
Driving by the "McMansion" property, I noticed the existing house is now empty. When is the house scheduled to be demo'ed? |
