| Author | Message | ||
     Neen Citizen Username: Neen Post Number: 150 Registered: 1-2004 |
I have to say that I was really disappointed to see the review of South Orange in Money Magazine's Review of the Best Towns in America. Not only are we no where near the top, but our crime statistics are much much higher than Maplewood and Montclair. Our statistics are absolutely horrible for both personal and property crime. Why are ours so much worse, I always thought most of the "nice" towns in Essex County that border on Newark and Irvington were comparable in crime. See the link below. http://money.cnn.com/best/bplive/snapshots/45012.html | ||
| kevin Supporter Username: Kevin Post Number: 493 Registered: 2-2002 |
Neen /discus/messages/3127/83895.html?1121197268 | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2081 Registered: 4-2002 |
Neen: As I pointed out in the other thread, there must be a mistake. The crime statistics for S. Orange and Maplewood have been similar for years. When I have the full numbers I will post (might not have for a day or two). | ||
| Neen Citizen Username: Neen Post Number: 151 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well, that's a huge relief. My husband was about to put the house on the market and pack our bags. I think a lot of homebuyers look at things like this, so I think it would be worthwhile us to push for Money Magazine to issue some sort of Errata. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1184 Registered: 3-2003 |
As I mentioned in the other thread, I have seen similar numbers for crime statistics in other surveys. I suggested to Mark that someone from the Village contact CNN/Money to see how the numbers were arrived at. I do see that in the UCR for Essex County link supplied by Taclbury in the the other thread, Crime Index Totals for Maplewood decreased from 1999 to 2000, while they increased for South Orange. Unless someone has a definitve answer, it seems that the best way to find out the validity of the numbers is to contact CNN/Money. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2082 Registered: 4-2002 |
I will see if someone can reach out to them. For now, cancel the subscription, | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1185 Registered: 3-2003 |
One possible explanation might be that although Seton Hall is not counted for population purposes, crimes on the campus are reported, thereby skewing the statistics. | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 2060 Registered: 11-2001  |
Good advice. I'd further say that Trustee Mr. Rosner should as a matter of reference refute the content of the article the best he can and in a manner to seek rebuttal to the CNN/Money article/snapshot. User: Don't you think? | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2085 Registered: 4-2002 |
Pizzaz: I think any formal rebuttal should come from the VP or the village administrator. When I have the actual numbers for both towns I will make sure someone sends it to them. Spitz: Good point. | ||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 162 Registered: 2-2005 |
I don't think SHU could skew the statistics enough to be substantial. Here is links to the current UCR reports available: http://www.njsp.org/info/ucr2003/index.html This is the most recent available, look at section 7 and scroll down to the Essex County Towns on page 130 and 131 of the pdf file. in a nutshell S.Orange: Crime rate: 39% p/1000 Violent Crime: 3.9 p/1000 but it also gives the specific numbers for several categories and a description of the police forces manpower. | ||
| Kristen Williamson Citizen Username: Kris219 Post Number: 42 Registered: 4-2005 |
I believe annual crime reports are available off of the SHU website. They are surprisingly low compared to other universities, which brings me back to the gates. I'm sorry that they are there, but it does help the crime issues. I think that the biggest crime on campus is theft/burglary. It usually occurs when someone leaves a laptop alone or leaves a door unlocked, really oblivious things like that. Kristen | ||
| Nicholas Holmes Citizen Username: Downthedoor Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2005 |
Here is that link: http://studentaffairs.shu.edu/security/righttoknowreport.html | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1188 Registered: 3-2003 |
Kristen/Nicholas - I agree with you (and O and G) that the the crimes committed on campus probably don't skew the numbers much. The situation in Millburn where shoplifting and car thefts at the Mall at Short Hills skew the numbers is probably worse. (This is the explanation given when someone brings up the fact that Millburn has more crime than Maplewood.) The bottom line is the crime statistics reported in the CNN/Money statistics (as well as similar reports I've seen) for SO are pretty high, both on a stand-alone basis as well as when compared to other neighboring urban suburbs. It would be helpful to know if there is something that explains the high crime statistics reported in the CNN/Money story. | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 754 Registered: 4-2004 |
Forget Seton Hall, these two towns are too similar in size, proximity and demographics to be that disparate in terms of crime. Statistics are made to be manipulated and such is surely the case. Somebody is seriously underreporting their figures. | ||
| Two Sense Citizen Username: Twosense Post Number: 332 Registered: 7-2004 |
What about all those golf courses in Illinois: http://money.cnn.com/best/bplive/topten/golf.html | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 934 Registered: 9-2004 |
Well, that's a huge relief. My husband was about to put the house on the market and pack our bags. I think a lot of homebuyers look at things like this, so I think it would be worthwhile us to push for Money Magazine to issue some sort of Errata. Hmmm… I wonder if those crime numbers were puposely skewed to lower the prices of SO housing market. Also,the inventory of housing here is tight. Kinda makes you wonder if there is some kind of motive for these statistics to be so off. | ||
| Neen Citizen Username: Neen Post Number: 153 Registered: 1-2004 |
If I were moving to this area and looking at the usual towns with the best commutes, this mis-information would definitely make me rule out South Orange. I think it is really unfortunate that this information was issued incorrectly. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1189 Registered: 3-2003 |
Neen - As I have said, I have seen similar numbers in other surveys. I originally ran across the info from threads on MOL usually started by someone who was interested in moving to Maplewood (it's usually Maplewood that people ask about, it seems). In response, MOLers have suggested to the propspective newcomers various surveys, which look much like the CNN/Money survey. I have always wondered about the crime numbers - both the very low numbers for Maplewood and the high numbers for South Orange. Incidentally, the numbers for SO are high not just in relation to Maplewood, but also to towns like West Orange and Montclair. I think a lot of us would like to know if it's because we report a lot more crimes on our own volition than the others do, if the other towns underreport, or any other explanation. | ||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 163 Registered: 2-2005 |
I don't think they are completely wrong...but its just another method of statiscal analysis to look at. If you look at the UCR our numbers a bit high as well...But look at Nutley who has a small population, their crime rate is very very high, but with very very little actual crimes or those of a violent nature. What surprised me is the number of car thefts(well it really didn't) about a car every day and half and the number of Domestic Violence incidents within the town. What was surprising is the low number of sex assualts. I figured with a college in town there would be many more. But then again I am sure its all self reported. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1190 Registered: 3-2003 |
I'll mention something else here, and I have to emphasize it's not to get a rise out of anyone. South Orange now has two municiapl judges to handle the caseload. Maplewood, West Orange and Montclair, all who are larger, have one municipal judge. I realize that a lot of the municpal court cases are not criminal cases, but things like parking tickets, code violations, etc. Nevertheless, maybe we in fact have a lot of crime. I really don't know. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2090 Registered: 4-2002 |
It is not the number of judges that matters, but the number of sessions. I don't know about Maplewood, but I am pretty sure that W. Orange and Montclair have two sessions. We added a second session and chose to use a second judge. Some towns use one judge for multiple sessions. The facts will show our crime statistics are virtualy the same as Maplewood. I will have the official ones in a day or two from both towns and will post. We will also send them to the magazine although that will not mean much since the wrong information is out there already. | ||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 164 Registered: 2-2005 |
Mr Rosner, I thought the UCR's are the "actual" crime statistics. It's posted by the New Jersey State Police who I guess run the UCR's on a local level in NJ. Its all there for the entire county of Essex. I assume you mean you will have the 2004 data to compare with the 2003 numbers. FYI to all: crime did reduce over the 02-03 time period. But Crime isn't static and can change greatly due to other influences. Usually economic issues and environmental issues. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2091 Registered: 4-2002 |
I will only have the 2003 numbers. I don'think the official 2004 numbers will be available till August (although obviously I can get S. Orange's numbers ). Once we have the actual numbers we will send a letter to the magazine. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 261 Registered: 4-2005  |
Trustee Rosner, Hypothetically speaking if the magazine was "way off" - is there anything South Orange can do in order for them to remedy the situation. OR would the magazine have to print some kind of retraction or apology or SOMETHING. As someone posted before - those stats make S.O. look bad especially for people interested in moving here (and for possible businesses) so I would think they owe it to the village to make things right (contingent on "IF" they were wrong). | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1191 Registered: 3-2003 |
The numbers don't just appear in the CNN/Money article. In the Soapbox section of MOL, poster deannel says that the same numbers appeared in the New York Times website in the real estate section. These numbers were used in a study commissioned by Maplewood. I've also seen similar numbers elsewhere. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1192 Registered: 3-2003 |
For example: http://www.monstermoving.monster.com/Find_a_Place/Compare2Cities/results.asp?.Zi p1=07079&Zip2=07040 | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 2070 Registered: 11-2001 |
South Orange to Maplewood The first number is South Orange followed by Maplewood and then the State stats. Demographics Details South Orange 07079, Maplewood 07040, New Jersey New Jersey Population View 17,749 23,190 8,707,156 8,707,156 Population Change Since 1990 6.00% 10.00% 13.00% 13.00% Population Density 5,987 6,288 1,120 1,120 Male 8,536 11,048 4,235,568 4,235,568 Female 9,213 12,143 4,471,588 4,471,588 Never Married 5,422 4,733 1,942,432 1,942,432 Married 6,521 9,480 3,545,918 3,545,918 Separated 737 1,019 420,663 420,663 Widowed 879 1,326 529,919 529,919 Divorced 870 1,170 497,432 497,432 Number of households View 5,896 8,267 3,199,381 3,199,381 Average Household Size 2.68 2.79 2.66 2.66 Median Age View 35.12 37.78 36.96 36.96 Income and Jobs Details South Orange 07079 Maplewood 07040 New Jersey New Jersey Median Household Income View $90,144 $85,096 $59,775 $59,775 Average household Income $136,501 $117,917 $78,662 $78,662 Per capita income $46,633 $42,188 $29,118 $29,118 Median Disposable Income $71,049 $67,756 $49,548 $49,548 Average Total Household Expenditure View $84,400 $78,085 $57,755 $57,755 Sales Tax Rate 6.00% 6.00% 6.00% 6.00% White Collar Jobs View 85.10% 80.94% 80.76% 80.76% Blue Collar Jobs View 14.90% 19.06% 19.24% 19.24% Ethnicity Details South Orange 07079 Maplewood 07040 New Jersey New Jersey White 10,637 13,523 6,317,139 6,317,139 African American 5,628 7,666 1,181,555 1,181,555 Hispanic 1,038 1,443 1,312,674 1,312,674 Native American, Eskimo, Aleut 17 31 20,170 20,170 Asian / Pacific Islander 702 660 496,989 496,989 Hawaiian / Pacific Islander 5 7 3,445 3,445 Other 279 376 466,665 466,665 Education Details South Orange 07079 Maplewood 07040 New Jersey New Jersey Less than 9th Grade 268 381 384,977 384,977 Some High School 454 889 661,250 661,250 High School Graduate 1,692 2,839 1,714,682 1,714,682 Some College 1,730 2,698 1,030,917 1,030,917 Associate Degree 529 753 307,791 307,791 Bachelors Degree 3,091 4,470 1,099,044 1,099,044 Graduate Degree 3,144 3,417 641,977 641,977 Crime Details South Orange 07079 Maplewood 07040 New Jersey New Jersey Total Crime Risk 155 4 71 71 Personal Crime Risk View 145 6 73 73 Property Crime Risk View 166 3 72 72 Residential Details South Orange 07079 Maplewood 07040 New Jersey New Jersey Average Home Sale Price $447,467 $393,984 $280,331 $280,331 Homes Owned 4,198 6,440 2,109,983 2,109,983 Homes Rented 1,697 1,827 1,089,398 1,089,398 Vacant Homes 155 160 256,429 256,429 Median Dwelling Age (Years) 63 64 38 38 Median Years in Residence 3.82 3.95 3.69 3.69 Annual Residential Turnover 16.30% 13.67% 14.33% 14.33% Median Travel Time to Work 24.50 30.30 23.50 23.50 Transportation to Work: Public 21.00% 21.00% 10.00% 10.00% Transportation to Work: Drive / Carpool 61.00% 71.00% 84.00% 84.00% Transportation to Work: Walk / Bike / Other 11.00% 2.00% 4.00% 4.00% Transportation to Work: Work at Home 7.00% 6.00% 3.00% 3.00% | ||
| jayjay Citizen Username: Jayjayp Post Number: 76 Registered: 6-2005 |
Am i reading the stats right that So. Orange crime scores a 155 and Maplewood a 4? While I don't kow what these numbers mean or how they were calcuated, that discrepancy begs for some investigation. If they are right, however, then a full court press on crime (more cops, more patrols, etc.) should be the BOT's #1 priority. And everything else comes after. BOT, stop fiddling while SO burns! | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1193 Registered: 3-2003 |
It all started with attached garages facing the street. Down with attached garages - take back our streets! | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 755 Registered: 4-2004  |
Maybe all attached garages should face Maplewood. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2106 Registered: 4-2002 |
I have the actual crime figures from S. Orange and Maplewood. S. ORange does not count SHU's population for crimes/1,000 so I will just post the actual numbers. Obviously there is some crime associated with SHU (mostly theft from dorm rooms). 2002: Maplewood had a total of 684 crimes (96 violent and 588 non-violent). South Orange had a total of 726 (75 violent and 651 non-violent) 2003: Maplewood had a total of 782 crimes ( 84 violent and 684 non-violent) South Orange had a total of 663 crimes ( 66 violent and 597 non-violent) Clearly there is little difference in the towns from almost any perspective (crime, schools, housing prices, property taxes, services, etc). We will be sending the actual numbers to the magazine. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1204 Registered: 3-2003 |
Mark: Maplewood has a population of 23,000. South Orange has a population of 18,000. As you know, the crime statistics which are generally used for comparison purposes are crimes per 1000 population. Using crimes per 1000, South Orange is higher than Maplewood. This is shown in Old and Gray's links to the UCR reports. As a matter of fact, SO ranks only after Newark, Irvington and Orange. SO has more crime per 1000 than any other Essex County town. You can see this from the UCR report. (East Orange is not reported in the UCR reports.) Nevertheless, the numbers used in the CNN/Money report seem completely out of line. Since CNN/Money seems to be using the same numbers as others (Monster.com for instance), they must be all getting them from the same source. | ||
| Nonymous Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 8382 Registered: 1-2003  |
Zipfind tells me that Maplewood has 24252 and South Orange has 17455. Small difference from your numbers. It's true that South Orange's crime rate is higher, but it's not a night-and-day difference. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1205 Registered: 3-2003 |
Tom - You're right. I was just pointing out that you just can't look at number of crimes for comparison. They're only useful when populations are also used. It's still difficult to understand how these small differences translate into the gigantic differences in the CNN/Money report (and other reports). | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2108 Registered: 4-2002 |
Spitz: I left out the per 1,000 crime rates because I don't think they are fair. The population counts do not include SHU but about 10% of the crimes are from SHU. I think it is fair to say that there is no significant difference in crime between S. Orange and Maplewood. | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1206 Registered: 3-2003 |
If 10% of the crimes are at SHU, that would indeed affect our numbers. That was my guess in an earlier post. It will be interesting to see if there is any explantion. As deannel mentioned in the Soapbox thread, the N.Y. Times is using the same numbers. Edited to add: For clarification, the imapct of SHU might explain the slight differece between SO and Maplewood in the NCR numbers; it doesn't explain the gigantic differece in how the NCR numbers are translated into the numbers that CNN/Money has in their report. | ||
| snshirsch Citizen Username: Snshirsch Post Number: 369 Registered: 1-2003 |
I think it's great that we will be sending the correct numbers to Money magazine, hopefully they will print a beautiful 1/2 column inch retraction. Unfortunately it seems that others here have mentioned seeing these numbers elsewhere. It would probably be in SO's best interest to speak to someone at On Board, http://onboardllc.com/ or call them at 866-279-5170. They seem to be the company responsible for collecting and reporting the data to Money magazine. | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 279 Registered: 4-2005 |
For 2003-2004, SHU had 85 instances documented as "Violates local, state or federal law". The majority of those being underaged drinking.... In regards to "theft in dorm rooms" there was 7 instances of that in 2003-2004. We have 10,000 students... | ||
| Spitz Supporter Username: Doublea Post Number: 1207 Registered: 3-2003 |
Sheena - I suspect there are a fair number of car thefts or attempted thefts on campus. At least it seems that there are a fair number of incidents based on the police blotter. These are included in the crime numbers. I'm sure most if not all of those thefts were not committed by SHU students. The situation is quite similar to the crime numbers that skew Millburn/Short Hills numbers. | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 777 Registered: 4-2004 |
Star-Ledger page 33 today printed the Essex County Uniform Crime Report stats for 2004. Maplewood and South Orange stats are nearly identical when you factor in Seton Hall. Someone at Money Magazine took a payoff. |
