| Author | Message | ||
     Richard Citizen Username: Rikky Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2005 |
Hi, my wife and i are new to South Orange and have just started getting around. We've been to South Orange village and Maplewood village. It's almost like a tale of 2 cities. Maplewood village has everything you'd want a town to have. Good and diverse restaurants, a supermarket, movie theater, post office, small book store, arts and crafts, etc. It's a great town. South Orange village? Seems half the stores are boarded up. The other half are beauty supply stores. One store right next to the Gaslight has been empty for quite a while we hear. What's the deal? It doesn't seem to make much sense considering they're sister towns and so close to each other. What's wrong? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2050 Registered: 1-2004  |
South Orange's problem begins with our BOT... | ||
| Sheena Collum SHU Citizen Username: Sheena_collum Post Number: 334 Registered: 4-2005  |
Maplewood has more people employed especially professionals. South Orange appears to "attempt" to keep costs lower by having certain people wear several different hats when it comes to redevelopment. I contend that it's a lack of professionals helping to produce a result with the town and that does inevitably go back to the efficiency and effectiveness of the BOT. On a sidenote - everything in South Orange is a double-edged sword. People want redevelopment but then complain about PILOTS. People want redevelopment but than don't want a SID. People want redevelopment but not if it's going to increase taxes.... There's a lot of competing interests and no one can agree on one thing. So there's my thoughts... | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 891 Registered: 3-2002 |
Maplewood also has the advantage of being better laid out to be a walker's town with boutiques that need foot traffic. Other than our growing collection of restaurant gems (look and you'll find them), downtown South Orange is definitely a work-in-very-slow-process. As far as I can tell, we seem to be plagued with amateur developers, a troubled BOT, and landlords who are keeping their stores vacant waiting for hoped-for higher rents once the new development gets moving (which seems to be finally happening) Use both downtowns for their strengths, and begin the painful task of learning about local politics so that you are ready for the next BOT election. Welcome to town! | ||
| Starr Citizen Username: Starr Post Number: 107 Registered: 9-2002 |
It's no secret that Maplewood has a really charming downtown, much more charming than South Orange's. Part of it is the terrain -- Maplewood Avenue is not a through street, the way South Orange Avenue is. There's always going to be a lot more traffic on a through street. That's one reason Maplewood's downtown is much more condusive to foot traffic. South Orange has some cool businesses you may not have discovered yet. For example, Voro, an ultra sophisticated restaurant right near the library; Sweet Concessions; and Sayan Living, which carries furniture, home accessories and decorative items from Africa, Bali, India, etc. Cait and Abby's is a great bakery too. It's not all beauty supply stores. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 8873 Registered: 1-2003  |
What are PILOTs and SIDs? Don't be too fooled by Maplewood Village. It's charming, but it's not really all that useful. Note that there are little business districts throughout Maplewood which are more useful but less atractive. But the reality is that most people leave South Orange and Maplewood to do much of their shopping. Shops in Maplewood Village close early, such as the pet and book shops. That's OK if you're a stay-at-home parent or work very early hours, but not otherwise. | ||
| aquaman Supporter Username: Aquaman Post Number: 365 Registered: 8-2001 |
Tom, a PILOT is a Payment In Lieu Of Taxes. Instead of paying taxes according to the assessed value like you and me, these developments pay a fixed payment - lower than the taxes would be - and often for up to 30 (!) years. A SID is a Special Improvement District. I disagree with you completely about Maplewood Village not being particularly useful. With a supermarket, Post Office, coffee shops, restaurants, toy stores, book stores, movie theater, salons, dry cleaners, train station.... it's very useful indeed. The little business districts you speak of that are more "useful"? Washington Park Square???? Irvington Ave??? Valley Street??? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 8874 Registered: 1-2003 |
Um, you're right. I spoke much too hastily and without clear thought. Those other districts are not more useful. But you have to leave Maplewood Village to buy paint and other things, which is not to say the other areas are more useful, just that Maplewood Village isn't a one-stop-suits-all place. That's not necessarily an indictment. We don't have a pharmacy or a hardware store in Maplewood Village, though. Thanks for the definitions. What happens in a SID? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 9121 Registered: 5-2001 |
Maplewood Village is off the beaten path and has been spared the chain stores that normally change the nature of suburban downtowns. SO has, oddly, the opposite problem. It is on a county highway so there are more chains such as Cold Stone Creamery, Dunkin' Donuts, RiteAid and Starbucks. Another problem, again geographical both to the east and west of Sloan Street there are pretty steap hills that aren't attractive to pedestrians. | ||
| argon_smythe Citizen Username: Argon_smythe Post Number: 622 Registered: 5-2001 |
Richard, You're looking at the surface in both cases. Each is a unique town with its own set of plusses and minuses, and each with its own set of commerical drivers or lack thereof. Ironically enough, SO is by most measures more "affluent" than neighbor Maplewood (higher median income, higher median house value, at least by 2000 figures). But it does not have a little village to show for it. The closest is the Sloan Street area, which is much smaller than Maplewood village. For one thing, your comparison pits only Maplewood's little village commercial area with a much larger commercial strip in SO. For real apples-to-apples comparison, if there is such a thing, you would do better to compare Maplewood's Springfield Ave area to SO's main shopping district. All told, I believe that SO has MUCH more commerical property than Maplewood. SO Ave, Irvington Ave, Valley St, I think (don't know) comprise much more commerical space overall than what can be found in Maplewood. Of course Maplewood also has commercial property on Valley Street too including the A&P so maybe it balances out. This is not to be an apoligist regarding the empty storefront problem in SO. But FWIW, comparing the commercial situation of these two towns is clearly a complicated matter. SO's commercial prospects are probably more closely aligned to a smaller version of Montclair. Maplewood's -- if you take the "village" approach it's more of a small Millburn, if you take the "Springfield" approach or a holistic approach to the town, I'm not sure what other NJ town is similar. But SO and Maplewood, in their commercial makeups, are not similar at all, actually. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 8883 Registered: 1-2003 |
Interesting stuff, argon_smyth. I found these articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maplewood,_New_Jersey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Orange%2C_New_Jersey | ||
| Mrs T Citizen Username: Netjack Post Number: 193 Registered: 12-2004 |
I have to admit that I've lived in SO for a little over 2 years, and have been to the MW'village', maybe 4 times. Frankly, the parking is a real turn off. But, the state of the 'village' in SO is well, embarrassing. We can't even get a Gap in here. I do understand that a retail business is a risky propisition, having had my own retail shop. I've even considered opening another retail business, for about 2 seconds here in SO, but it's just too much of a wasteland. And I don't forsee the SOPAC and 'village market' and associated condos and thousands of sq. feet of NEW retail space helping. We need a professional plan like Summit and Westfield. | ||
| Richard Citizen Username: Rikky Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2005 |
I appreciate everyone's responses to my question. While I understand the more detailed aspects of comparing the 2 villages, if you want to draw local residents (and maybe even outside folks) to come to South Orange, you need to give them a reason. It's in the towns best interest to at least make their 'core' area be useful and be a representation of the town overall. The restaurants and shops in Maplewood are head and shoulders above South Orange. I'm not sure who can honestly question that. While there are some nice restaurants (Gaslight, Toro Loco and Voro), it seems to stop there. Reasoning like it's a main road just doesn't satisfy me. Look at Millburn. I'd have to agree with Mrs. T the most. The town seems to need a real developer to come in and redo the place. It would be WELL worth the money. I can tell you by experience most people I know are drawn by the village in the town they want to buy. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 895 Registered: 3-2002 |
But yet you bought here anyway...hoping you don't regret it. We've been here 10 years and are still very happy with the decision, and our property appreciation, in spite of the limitations of the downtown. | ||
| Richard Citizen Username: Rikky Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2005 |
Property appreciation is a nice thing, however I believe we're in a nationwide housing bubble so I wouldn't count my chickens yet as it's all unrealized gains. Prices next year could be 25% less, you never know. It would be nice to see them bring some business into town. If you look at the village square there are always people frequenting that area, be it going to Starbucks or getting some ice cream. It's nice, and it's clearly worked. If they can spread this out to the rest of the village, including east of Valley St. I think it would be a great thing. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1145 Registered: 12-2003  |
"While I understand the more detailed aspects of comparing the 2 villages, if you want to draw local residents (and maybe even outside folks) to come to South Orange, you need to give them a reason." Richard: While that's a swell sentiment, the facts don't really support you. People are moving to South Orange in droves, and were even doing so four years ago, before several of the great restaurants we have now were even open. Yes, I'd like to see more going on downtown too, but to say South Orange (or Maplewood, or West Orange) has a problem luring prospective home buyers is a bit like saying this message board has trouble attracting opinions. If you're not satisfied with the town, keep on driving down the road. That string of Manhattanites behind you will be glad to have one less bidder to contend with on that center hall colonial. (On a more serious note: It's a bit ludicrous to pit South Orange and Maplewood in some sort of competition, given their proximity. Does anyone here really live in one town and never go to the other? I spend equal time in both of our little mayberries, and love them both, quirks and all. Plenty of great restaurants, shops and interesting people, and lots of room for more.) | ||
| Vertifly Citizen Username: Vertifly Post Number: 46 Registered: 7-2005  |
"Prices next year could be 25% less..." hmm...25% less...? Unsure about that. There seems to be enough commercial and other development work happening in the area to avoid that much of a drop in value. At best, WHEN the housing retail market tanks (you're right, which it will), SO is likely to have a below average depreciation. Go ahead and quote me if you like - being an investor has helped me understand the flow better. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 1373 Registered: 5-2004  |
monty, I think Richard is talking about drawin residents and non-residents into the downtown, not draing people to move to SO. And I think we all agree with that sentiment to some extent. It's a question of how much control the town government has over it. As has been said before, it's not like developers are clamoring to work in South Orange, and the town is turning them away. On the other hand, the town doesn't seem to do enough to 1)lure developers and 2)make things easier for REAL developers 3) and most importantly, have a master plan or vision for the town. But this is the same old conversation we all have every 6 months. better to simply read the archives... | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1146 Registered: 12-2003 |
I guess what bothers me most about these discussions (and I realize we have them every other Tuesday it seems like) is that they really seem to me to be less about "developing downtown" than about people wanting downtown South Orange (and Maplewood, for that matter) to look a certain way. High-priced towns are always hauled out as the example, someone says why can't we get a Gap, someone else says why can't we get a Williams Sonoma. I don't think this is about empty storefronts -- witness the horror when a nail salon moves to town, and the masses think the sky is falling. People want the downtown to look a certain way, that in my opinion doesn't necessarily have anything to do with its usefulness. It's about keeping up with Short Hills and the rest of the granite countertop set. Bah humbug. Lots of us moved to this area specifically because it DIDN'T feel like the rest of suburban New Jersey. Yes, I want more development downtown, but I'm thinking more along the lines of a hardware store. I don't need a bunch of shops selling overpriced handbags and shoes to make me feel like I made a smart real estate decision. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1147 Registered: 12-2003 |
And people keep bringing up Millburn as this dining hot spot. What am I missing? Is there somewhere besides Tinga and Basilico I should be eating? | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 897 Registered: 3-2002 |
Monty, I'll second both of your posts! | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 1376 Registered: 5-2004 |
monty, haven't you seen all the riff raff that nail salons bring to town? I mean, Mwood village has 3, and you can barely walk down the street there without being accosted. Next thing you know, there'll be homeless people in town, all because of the nail salons. Everyone knows nail salons are just the tip of the iceberg. First it's nail salons, next thing you know, it's massage parlors and crack houses. Oh the humanity... | ||
| Quint Citizen Username: Shark_killer Post Number: 23 Registered: 6-2005 |
WELCOME TO DA HOOD......god forbid you allow a company that people would really go to into town! | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 1381 Registered: 5-2004 |
Quint, to whom are you directing that comment? | ||
| Mrs T Citizen Username: Netjack Post Number: 195 Registered: 12-2004 |
I didn't say that I wanted a Gap, I said we can't GET one, and they're everywhere. Let's face the fact that most people live here for the same reason we do, 30 minutes to Penn Station. The charming housing stock really helps, but that's the draw: the train. That's why we moved here, and we can walk to the train, Bonus!! The downtown looks like a DMZ, and has only gotten worse since we moved here. There isn't a good reason this area can't be developed, and not with just Gaps, and chains, but let's face it they anchor independent retail. | ||
| C Bataille Citizen Username: Nakaille Post Number: 2175 Registered: 5-2001 |
Let's face the fact that most people live here for the same reason we do, 30 minutes to Penn Station. Mrs. T, everyone has a lot of different reasons for living in our two towns. The proximity to Penn Station has absolutely nothing to do with why my family and many of our friends are here. Sure I want to see more decent ratables to bring taxes down in both towns (in addition to personal gain that would ease a bit of the pressure on the school budget which I am concerned about.) BTW, in Maplewood you need to look for the several small parking lots that run off the side streets off Maplewood Ave. Or park three blocks away and enjoy the walk. Or do some relaxation breathing. I do think your idea of a professional planner for S.O. downtown is a good one, given the development history in the past decade that I've observed. | ||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 177 Registered: 2-2005 |
TAXES WILL NEVER GO DOWN...IT WOULD BE NICE IF THEY JUST MAINTAINED FOR A YEAR OR TWO..BUT FORGET TAXES EVER GOING DOWN. | ||
| mary brenner Citizen Username: Marybrenner Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2005 |
Mrs T. I took my son to the sporting goods store saturday and got him new sneakers and a tennis raquet, then I went to the candle shop to get a house warming gift which was two votivo candles in a nice presentation bag, my friend loved it! I then got a great pair of jeans at urban femme then off to sayan living and got a great chair, had lunch at cafe arugula what a treat and finished with picking up my newly framed picture at the south orange frame shop oh and a nice toy at joggin your noggin. Do you live in the same south orange I do? | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2143 Registered: 4-2002 |
Richard: Cafe Arugula, Antonellas, Papillion, Nieceys, Resevoir and Lot 15 are all nice restaurants with good food in addition to the ones you mention. Plus a new japanese place just opened. I am sure I have forgotten some places but clearly there are a lot more options than you mention for dining out. Plus I just saw Mbrenner's post pointing out several local businesses. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 77 Registered: 5-2004 |
Don't forget Caribbean Cuisine on First Street - so yum, great prices and really nice owners!!! | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 1354 Registered: 8-2002 |
I believe the SO "downtown" -- including the SO Ave area AND Valley St *could* be a decent shopping draw -- if the variety of stores AND parking were reasonably coordinated. *IF* I could park in the new 3rd street garage, and on a Saturday walk within a block or two to a variety of stores -- that would be great! (not too much different that going to the mall). But the big *IF* is both parking and more store options. Give me a small hardware store, a book store (with a good kids section), a couple of stores to buy jeans/sneakers, etc., a stationary store, etc. and that would be awesome. Right now its neither particularly convenient to park, and although some of those choices exist -- they are too limited. I don't have the time to start shopping in SO -- and *then* head to the mall because I can't find the right size or style of sneakers, jeans, etc. But I'd take the restaurants in SO *anyday* over even the best option at the mall! Pete | ||
| argon_smythe Citizen Username: Argon_smythe Post Number: 625 Registered: 5-2001 |
Everyone complains about parking but you know what, I never had any problem parking either in Maplewood Village or SO Village. Seriously, never. And I don't mean for commuting, I mean for shopping or dining. I find parking at a shopping mall more annoying than parking in either of these towns. And it is true there are a LOT of good quality stores and restaurants in SO. At least as many as in Maplewood, and some significantly better even. To say that the SO business district is dead is to play to the perception rather than the reality. There is some problem however in SO that drives this perception: since the commercial area is larger (as I mentioned before), the good places are more spread out. There are more empty storefronts between them. It leads to an overall perception that does not sit in the mind as neatly packaged. This stuff matters. You can have great stores here but the layout of it can either be well designed or completely counterproductive. Things like having the Town Hall Deli up onto Valley and having a bank branch move into a location next to a park, just doesnt' make sense. People like to have an ATM handy but they do not generally want to park in a lot, get out of the car, walk to the bank, do their business, and walk back. And they are unlikely to want to linger around the park a bit after conducting their bank business. A restaurant, however, naturally coincides with a park. I had always wished, for example, that the restaurant would somehow get permission to put a small number of tables out in the park, or in big open windows next to the park. Well I'm rambling again and a bank branch is certainly better than another empty storefront, but there's little synergy in the SO business district outside of Sloan Street, and by this I mean essentially one side of Sloan Street. | ||
| C Bataille Citizen Username: Nakaille Post Number: 2177 Registered: 5-2001 |
Old and Grey, you're right that they won't go down in real dollars. What I meant was that the percentage increase might drop or at least flatten a bit. BTW, it's not just taxes that don't decrease in actual dollars. Salaries, housing costs, food costs, etc all continue to rise. My father was head of security for a very large manufacturing business years ago. He made a very good salary of 8K at the time, which enabled our family to buy an 8 room house in Madison and two nice cars (which were paid for in cash) in the 1960's, on one salary! My point is that it is very easy to oversimplify the math on taxes or anything if you don't use some perspective. Cathy | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 80 Registered: 5-2004 |
Argon-S. You, of course, are right. The problem is that from a landlord's perspective a bank is a first rate tenant. A restaurant tenant is much more likely to fail and there are probably more negative liability issues with a restaurant tenant vs a bank. (fire risk, smells, pest infestation, operating hours). I heard that the landlord where the Town Deli was also had one of the few coveted liquor licenses in town, which is wasted on a bank tenant. You can't force a landlord to take one tenant over another just beause it makes more sense for the town's residents (at least I don't think so.) | ||
| Duder Citizen Username: El_duderino Post Number: 751 Registered: 2-2004  |
The big difference between the two villages is that Maplewood is far more stroll-able than S. Orange. S. Orange has some stores and restaurants that are destinations unto themselves, but it doesn't work as a cohesive downtown. Feels empty, sometimes deserted. Large banks suck the charm right out and they are usually closed during prime strolling hours. You can amble along Maplewood Avenue, browse or window shop, and it's very pleasant. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 8922 Registered: 1-2003 |
Strollability is a good metric. Counterintuitively, you get more traffic and fewer traffic jams if you close the main street off to motor vehicular traffic permanently. In a way, Maplewood Ave has almost done that, since it's difficult to pass through in a motor vehicle. | ||
| Mrs T Citizen Username: Netjack Post Number: 197 Registered: 12-2004 |
The droves of Manhattanites, byw I'm not one of them, are coming to SO because of the proximity to the city and the housing stock, not the charming downtown. What I'm saying is that it does look and feel like some town in the appalichians where the 1 sustaining company closed down. I walk to the village to do banking and have breakfast at Texas Weiners, love it!, and walk past more and more empty stores. And, frankly we can't afford to shop at the little boutiques, that exist, I've got a huge tax bill to pay. It seems to me that there are several kinds of residents on SO, those with what I'll call lots of expendible money, and those of us just making it, trying to bring back to life, or maintain, our beautiful old houses, raise our kids and maybe one day get the old siding taken down. I understand that a lot of people have lived here a long time, love the place and maybe have just become used to the state of the downtown. Yes, it's a nice place, but frankly needs a lot of work to be the best it could be, and I just don't see that happening. Is it apathy or is it easier to just do your shopping and strolling somewhere else nicer? | ||
| AlleyGater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 810 Registered: 10-2004 |
I don't find Maplewood Ave to be too much a problem to drive through, it's more of an issue that it's out of the beaten path. I never NEED to pass through that area unless I actually need something there. Works great for a town like ours, but it stinks for a place like a Gap or Starbucks. Thank the lord for that. My wife likes Westfield, I don't. 'nuff said. | ||
| joso Citizen Username: Joso Post Number: 313 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think one of the reasons that SO seems so desolate is that it has too much retail space, all spread out, to support the actually much smaller population than Maplewood. I'm not so sure all te new retail palnned for Beifus and the market site will do much to improve this sense of desolation. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 8938 Registered: 1-2003 |
WHAT? I usually hear people in both towns complaining that there isn't enough retail space to bring in enough ratables. So SO's ratio of commercial-to-residential space is higher than Maplewood's, but it still seems pretty low. Maybe SO should be trying to appeal not only just to SOMers (if I may coin a word) but also to people from neighboring towns. And that may mean both Millburn and Newark. Hmm, tough thing to do at once. |
