| Author | Message | ||
     Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 359 Registered: 1-2004  |
When will we recognize that daytime volunteer or subcontracted ambulance service does not meet our expectations? I was at the pool today and at 3:30 pm a young girl fell backwards off the diving board ladder onto the concrete. She had lost her breath and was bleeding slightly. The response by the pool staff seemed that we do not have trained EMT's at the pool. The police responded within the first five minutes but just stood by waiting for the EMT's. At 4:00pm an ambulance arrived - one half hour to response! I am aware that we have an initiative to have our Fire Department respond to First Aid calls. We have trained I think 6 as EMT's. When will we be able to have them respond to daytime calls? I know it is not a simple issue to solve but when do we get down to basic services before diving into the frills? | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 116 Registered: 5-2004 |
You are dead-on right, Mr. L.!!! As much as I appreciate the efforts and intentions of our EMS volunteers, who give generously of their spare time, I agree that we would be even better served to use the trained professionals in our local fire department! | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 360 Registered: 1-2004 |
Thanks, I also agree with your assessment of our volunteers. | ||
| Joan Supporter Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 6038 Registered: 5-2001 |
The best short term solution to the problem described above would be to provide first responder training to all of the pool staff and EMT training to at least one staff member from each shift. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2105 Registered: 1-2004  |
To me this response time is totally unacceptable! Especially with a possible head injury. BUT you can NOT blame the volunteer members of the SOFAS. Unfortunately, until we have a paid squad, there is nothing we can do. There are not enough volunteers riding the squad to have round the clock coverage. The dedicated people from our community who ride the squad already give a lot of their time; some of them even work for paid ambulance companies. I'm willing to bet, if given the chance, they'd be very happy to work for the town squad. I'm a little surprised the police stood around doing nothing. Whenever we've had to call the squad, the police, are usually the first ones on the scene. They have always been very helpful. The most recent time we've had to call the squad it was the middle of the night when one of my nine year old nephews had a serve asthma attack. In addition to giving him oxygen, as we waited for the squad and medica, it was the officer's calm reassuring that soothed not only my nephew, but also my mom who was freaking out. I think before we spend something like a half million dollars for some dumb statue, we need to re evaluate what's important. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2106 Registered: 1-2004 |
Now that I think of it... I thought there usually was at least one trained EMT at the pool. Do the lifeguards at least know CPR? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 9041 Registered: 1-2003  |
I think this story doesn't paint a whole picture. What state was the victim in while waiting. She was breathing, right? Is it possible that the dispatchers didn't see this as an emergency, and could that explain the slow response time? I think it's best to glean average response time from a large sample of cases, not just one, especially one that might not have been an emergency. | ||
| red_alert Citizen Username: Red_alert Post Number: 156 Registered: 3-2005 |
I wonder if someone can provide response time statistics. | ||
| Katie Citizen Username: Shoregirl Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2005 |
I was also just at the pool and could not believe what went on. Not only did it take 30 minutes for the "paid" ambulance service to respond, but when they arrived they were in no hurry to get to the injured girl. They ambled along like it was a scraped knee, stopping along the way to pick up equipment that fell off the gurney - twice! And then, to add insult to injury they decided to move her along the bumpy grass instead of the cement walkway. I am sure this did not help if there was indeed a back injury. I really think that the powers that be should invest what they pay this so called ambulance service to have a small paid crew on duty during the day. I believe they would have gotten there faster. Also, falling off of a ladder on to your back and head is considered an emergency in most cases. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1159 Registered: 12-2003  |
So it's pretty clear we don't know all the facts here. Howard, since you started this thread, can you please update it with some more facts? | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 361 Registered: 1-2004 |
The fact is that a call for an ambulance took one half hour! I do not know who had the responsibility to triage at the scene to make such a decision for a delayed response time. If that was the case the police could have transported her to the hospital. The fact is the current system is not meeting what I think is reasonable response to an emergency call. | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 362 Registered: 1-2004 |
The other point is when will our Fire Department assume at least the daytime EMT coverage. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 9150 Registered: 5-2001 |
Did the ambulance crew put her on a backboard and imobilize her head? Did she ever lose consciousness? Both of these would be indications of a serious incident. By "young girl" I assume you mean pre teen. Where were her parents or nanny? I hate to turn this into a us vs. them thread, but in Maplewood the fire department responds to ambulance calls during the day. We had to call an ambulance last summer and they responded in less that five minutes. | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 363 Registered: 1-2004 |
The answer is yes but it was the pool staff that placed her on the backboard - I was told the aupair was present. But the issue is expectation of services! One half hour is not acceptable. | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 1365 Registered: 8-2002 |
Howard -- can we be sure the ambulance was called right away? perhaps there was a lag? (if not, then clearly 30 minutes is completely unacceptable). How is the girl tonight - anyone know? -- Pete | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 364 Registered: 1-2004 |
As I said, the police were there within 5 minutes and the gates were opened so that the ambulance could enter. | ||
| tjr542 Citizen Username: Tjr542 Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2004 |
Nobody knows why it took so long to respond. The ambulance that covers South Orange during the day may have been on another call. If that is the case you will need to wait for another towns ambulance to be dispatched, or the SO ambulance to clear the job that they were on. If the surrounding towns ambulances are busy you need to wait till one clears and is able to respond. If there is nobody available MONOC may have to dispatch an ambulance from Union where their base is. There are many factors that can cause delayed ambulance responces. People call 911 for stupid reasons and will tie up an ambulance for up to a half hour or more on bull s**t. I have been called to houses for things like a baby crying, a paper cut, and other things that do not need a responce from an ambulance. Dispatch centers can not refuse to send an ambulance but will delay calls depending on how serious the condition is. More serious calls get dispatched first. The same issues will be present even if South Orange Fire takes over daytime coverage. You can only do one job at a time and if all the ambulances are tied up you will need to wait till one is clear. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1160 Registered: 12-2003 |
So Howard, you're saying someone called 911, said we have an emergency and need an ambulance, and it took 30 mins from that point for an ambulance to arrive? You provided some medical details, but not many. She "lost her breath and was bleeding slightly." I'm not sure what either of those things mean. She wasn't breathing? Obviously it's not that she wasn't breathing for 30 minutes -- she'd be dead. What do you mean by bleeding slightly? "The response by the pool staff seemed that we do not have trained EMT's at the pool." What do you mean seemed? Are you saying no one at the pool did anything? The girl was just left alone, and no one tried to help her? "The police responded within the first five minutes but just stood by waiting for the EMT's." So again, the police came, but didn't touch her? They just stood there looking at her, waiting on EMTs? I'm just suggesting that maybe, just maybe, there is more to the story. At the very least, every lifeguard and every police officer on the scene could have given her CPR. If they didn't, maybe it's because she didn't need it, and not that they were just being lazy. You're acting like someone was having a heart attack, dialed 911, and it took 30 minutes for an ambulance to arrive. It seems like there are a lot of details missing from the picture. | ||
| boredtodeath Citizen Username: Boredtodeath Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2005 |
there are alot of details missing from the picture. The most important detail is that the girl is fine and was released from the hospital before the pool closed. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2110 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well, I'd like to know if Paul was there or not. If he was, someone should ASK HIM what the deal was. I'm sure he'd be happy to clear up any confusion any of us have over what happened today. And if he wasn't there, I know from an experience of my own, the staff is very good about informing him of any incidents that occur in his absence. I know this much, the staff at the pool knows how to react in an emergency situation. A couple of summers ago my I brought my then nephew 16 and 7 year old nephews to the pool. The 16 year old was doing flips and other show off type dives from the high dive. This made me very uncomfortable, so I asked him to stop. Meanwhile, the 7 year old was jumping off the low dive. He then decided he wanted to go off the high dive. As the older one jumped off, and hit the water, I turned to the younger one to tell him when his cousin got out of the water, he can go on the line for the high dive. (he already had a 'dot' but me being the over protective person I am wouldn't let him go unless his older cousin was by the edge of the pool) All of a sudden the guards started to blow their whistles, as the guard nearest us jumped into the diving tank, the younger nephew says 'Oh no! It's (said his name). I turn around and sure enough it was! Knowing how the 16 year old had been flirting with the lifeguard a few minutes earlier, and having seen him hit the water I told the younger one not to worry, it was just a drill. (I thought they had just asked him to play 'victim') When I saw the blood as they pulled him out of the pool, I knew it wasn't a drill. My nephew is a pretty big kid, at the time he was close to 6 feet tall built like a brickwall; yet these guards got him out of the pool. He was somewhat dazed and covered with blood. The guards led him to the bench by the little building near the diving tank and sat him down. Once they did that, nobody except me touched him. Realizing it was just his nose bleeding and not a cracked skull, I told him to put his head down by his knees. Some older guy starts to yell at me telling me I was doing it all wrong as he's trying to reach for my nephew telling him to put his head back. Okay, so many I forgot basic first aid or fell asleep when they were teaching nose bleeds, I thought to myself -NOT. 'Are you an EMT,' I ask the older guy. 'No, but I know what I'm talking about,' he insists. Ah, look, no you don't. Please get away from him. He is my nephew and I don't want you to touch him. The dummy is still insisting he knew what he was doing. Meanwhile one of the guards went for some ice, and gloves. The poor guard standing nearest us looked so helpless. She says to me 'I'm so sorry I can't do anything without gloves. She also said the other guard went to get gloves. I told her it wasn't a problem because I would have stopped her from touching my nephew until she had gloves. My nephew assured us he did not feel dizzy, nor did he hit his head on the pool. He tried to do a jacknife and whacked himself in the nose. He wanted no part of the first aid squad or going to the emergency room, as he had already been there three times in the last 10 days. (Did I mention he's a klutz)? My younger nephew just stood there with eyes as big as saucers shaking his head. The older one is now laughing. Great he thinks it's funny. I made it clear to my nephew he will be going to the hospital if grandma or my other sister felt he should. I didn't think he needed to have the squad bring him, especially since he didn't want them to. He ended up being the talk of the pool. All these little kids came up to him asking him questions as we were going to get our stuff to leave. Within 15 minutes of getting home my mom and sister notice his nose was a little off to the side, so they took him to the er. Good thing he was going home the next day because the break was so bad he needed surgery to fix it. The point is, the pool staff did everything right. Maybe the caregiver of the child hurt today didn't want the first aid squad called. When I first read this thread I was under the impression the child fell backwards off the high dive, landing on her back and head. Now I'm not so sure. But, if in fact the response time between the time the call was placed, and the time it took the squad to get there, that's a different story. But don't place blame on the pool staff, or the police. When my nephew got hurt, more then once they suggested, very strongly at one point, he go to the hospital. If it had been my younger nephew, there is no question he would have been taking a ride with the first aid squad to the er, like it or not. And something I don't understand. If we are paying a for daytime ambulance service, why aren't we paying the members of our own squad to to answer calls during the day? | ||
| Dust Buster Citizen Username: Coyote Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2005 |
Why did the Ambulance say Ocean County on it? | ||
| NORA Citizen Username: Norav Post Number: 75 Registered: 6-2004 |
maybe thats why it took 30 min to get to the pool | ||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 180 Registered: 2-2005 |
Why not train the police as EMT's like many towns in Voluteer communities. The officer who came to my house on an ambulance call when my wife's blood sugar got too low, basically said, I can give you oxygen, give you CPR, and stop you from bleeding, anything beyond that is for EMT's? And the two of us waited for about 10 minutes for the ambulance to arrive. Which was reasonable since it was the volunteer squad that arrived. I have to say it was more uncomfortable for him as he continually apologized for the inability to do more then just sit with us waiting. He was constantly talking into his radio asking about the ambulance. If the police are going to get there in seconds or 10-20 minutes before the ambulance, why not equip them with the ability to get the victim ready for the Ambulance which takes much longer to arrive?...or have the Fire Department's EMTs do "First Response" to medical calls like many towns with Paid fire departments do? I cannot imagine our Fire Department is that busy, at least not like the police. Wouldn't it make sense to have the immediate EMS treatment completed quickly and as soon as possible so when the ambulance does get there they don't spend another 10 minutes starting treatment or preparation, you can basically just put them on the streatcher and in to the back and get moving to the hospital? Its not like your taking The FD out of the town, if there is a fire, they are already on their truck and still within the VIllage? Its beyond me how so many of the issues we have in South Orange, can be addressed by looking at other communities, and we seem to struggle along and trip over our own feet. I know there is a huge factor on cost for this training, equipment, and contracts, but there has to be a way we can make this work more efficient. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 9046 Registered: 1-2003 |
Auntie, you can't pay volunteer ambulance squads. They lose their volunteer status that way. It might be good if you could, but the law doesn't allow it. | ||
| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 1368 Registered: 8-2002 |
I believe this might be one of the most disturbing threads about SO on MOL in quite some times. We can disucss taxes, politics, development, etc -- but when it comes to the need for a potentially life saving service -- its either there or it isn't. I feel we really need to know more about what happened and why. Should the police investigate? And/or should the recreation dept? Pete | ||
| Montrose13 Citizen Username: Montrose13 Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2004 |
Disturbing indeed. Believe Paul was there and can provide details. Also, the girl who was hurt was a guest. She should not have been on the board in the first place. It is my understanding she removed her guest pass. If she came with a SO adult that person has some responsibility as well. | ||
| mary brenner Citizen Username: Marybrenner Post Number: 43 Registered: 7-2005 |
Mr. Levison do you ever have anything nice to say about any thing that has to do with the government or workings of out town? Don't you think as a responsible resident before making such a post you should have made the necessary calls to get all the facts and answers to all the questions and statements you are posting before you thow it on line to create such a disturbance? This is always a very touchy topic as it relates to the possible saving of lives. You easily could have done some work to first find out why it took 30 minutes to respond. And then if you were not pleased with the reasons make the post to alert all of us. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 1408 Registered: 5-2004  |
Guest are not allowed on the board? Not having a guest pass on in some way contributed to this incident? This thread is not about the injury itself or what caused it. Howard is trying to get across the point that there was a perceived emergency, and the response time was perceived to be poor. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 9156 Registered: 5-2001 |
It doesn't look like this was the kind of incident that normally would call for EMTs and an ambulance. I think most parents would have put the girl in their car and headed off to the pediatrican and because this was not a serious emergency and that might have effected the response time. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1161 Registered: 12-2003 |
Again: I don't think it's clear whether this was an emergency that called for a faster than 30-minute response time or not. We just don't know the details. Howard, if you're saying someone called 911 and said "A girl is bleeding and not breathing, help!" and it took 30 minutes for an ambulance to arrive, I'll eat my hat. | ||
| mary brenner Citizen Username: Marybrenner Post Number: 46 Registered: 7-2005 |
My point exactly HOWARD does not have all the facts! He started a thread that can cause a public scare! This is a very serious situation and before someone makes a post or statement with these kinds of implications they should do all the homework. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 9050 Registered: 1-2003 |
Right. There really could be a serious deficiency, but we haven't seen evidence of it yet. | ||
| mary brenner Citizen Username: Marybrenner Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2005 |
I am telling you that Mr. Levison is wrong here he should never have made such a post without first making sure of all the facts. This is dangerous and very irresponsible of him. | ||
| mary brenner Citizen Username: Marybrenner Post Number: 49 Registered: 7-2005 |
LEVISON SAYS "When will we recognize that daytime volunteer or subcontracted ambulance service does not meet our expectations?" This is a very serious statement. He is saying that it does not even meet our expectations? So is he saying If my Husband has a heart attack he is as good as dead in South Orange? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2113 Registered: 1-2004 |
Howard- How old was the aupair? You said you were told she was there. Were you actually at the pool when this happened, or did you hear about it second hand? Did the kid fall off the high dive ladder or the low dive? Did she land on her butt, or flat on her back? tjr- Daytime coverage stinks; but we can't blame the members of the SOFS for this. It is not the fault of those who already give up a big chunk of their time to ride our squad. With the exception of 2 daytime calls, the SOFAS have been the ones to respond when we've called them. About a year and a half ago we had to call the squas in the middle of the day. Not only did it took close to a half hour for them to show up, before I was out of the hospital, we got a bill for their services. Old I think many of the police officers in town are more then standard first aid trained. In the past year and 1/2 we've had to call the squad at least 4 times. Three of the calls were serious enough the medica were also called. Each time, the police who were first on the sceen happened to also be EMT's. I think one of the times an officer was even a medic himself. Tom- Do you happen to know why we can't pay EMT's to be based out of squad building during the day? Montrose- WOW! If in fact she was a guest and removed her wrist band, the person whose guest pass she came in under should be banned from having guests the rest of the season!!! If the kid was on the boards, the 'adult' must have been aware the band was removed. If the adult wasn't aware of it, what were they doing? Maybe being slapped with some sort of fine would discourage others from trying this in the future!!! I've brought kids with me to the pool many times this summer, usually with one on a guest pass. Despite one of the children being a member of the Maplewood Swim Team, she was told by me in no uncertain terms guests were not allowed on the boards, therefore she could not go on the diving boards. Kids being kids, they tell me they can just remove the wristband and the guards will never know. Yeah, I tell them but ***I*** would know and THEY will know. They were warned by me the options were not discussable. Period. Rastro- No, guest are not supposed to go on the boards. This has been a rule for many years. At least 5 that I know of. Bob K- I agree with your analysis ased on the information we've been given. Mary- If you know anything, please share it. How many of us will actually take the time to ASK Paul what happened? I'm sure he won't reveal names, but I'm willing to bet he WILL clear up any confusion anyone has. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2114 Registered: 1-2004 |
Oh and Rasto- In answer to your question below, IF this kid was a guest, and she followed the rules and she not on the boards where she did NOT belong, this would not have happened!!! So, yes, she not only contributed to the incident she is at fault 100%. Or at least the adult with her should be. If I remember correctly, you don't have to be 18 to bring a guest into the pool. Maybe this rule should be changed. Another thought (and I hope Paul doesn't get mad at me for saying this) many people at the pool, me included, don't wear our badge, even though we're supposed to. Maybe this rule should be enforced in the diving tank, especially since you're supposed to have dots on your badge to use the boards? (Sorry Paul) Rastro said: Guest are not allowed on the board? Not having a guest pass on in some way contributed to this incident? | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 823 Registered: 4-2004  |
Howard- Police can't transport patients because they don't have the training or equipment to treat them if their conditions suddenly worsen. If it were as easy as driving to an emergency room, parents or family could do it. Using firemen or cops to handle EMT duties would cut response times, but it would also require hiring more of them and dedicating a crew for each shift in addition to their regular duty shifts. Otherwise each fire crew would be short handed or each police tour would be undermenned. An ambulance would need to be manned and driven due to transport protocols and advanced treatment equipment and requirements. Maplewood does use firemen but had to hire the additional personnel for coverage. And with local Volunteer squads unable to maintain membership, these squads could suddenly go under and put the burden solely on paid personnel. The cost to each town would then be substantial. | ||
| Montrose13 Citizen Username: Montrose13 Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2004 |
The new badges are horrible and virtually unwearable--those issued some years ago could easily be pinned to bathing suits. So now it is really difficult to distinguish between a resident and a guest who took off her guest pass. Paul's only option is to close the boards to everyone. Doesn't seem fair because someone decided that rules didn't apply to them. Sorry but the guest and her hosts have to take responsibility for subverting the rules. Their actions started this. Maybe the rule should be changed that residents whose guests break the rules aren't allowed to have guests. | ||
| Quint Citizen Username: Shark_killer Post Number: 24 Registered: 6-2005 |
I guess none of you lived in this town when a 20 to 30 min wait for an ambulance was the norm, before the town hired the paid service during the day. It was not that long ago. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 9054 Registered: 1-2003 |
I don't know the answer to your question, Auntie, but the point came up in Maplewood a few months ago when the town threatened to disband the squad entirely. The thread is at http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?26018/69721 I think it was bobk who informed us of the law, and I think it's a state law. |
