| Author | Message | ||
     Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2115 Registered: 1-2004  |
I don't know where you're talking about Qunit, but I've been here most of my life and it was NEVER the 'norm' to wait 20-30 minutes for a squad. And believe me, growing up with 5 brothers and sisters we called the squad many a time. I'm off to the pool. I'm going to ask Paul what happened. I'll post his response later. Montrose In response to your Friday, August 12, 2005 - 12:04 pm post, that's EXACTLY the reason I no longer wear my badge! Up until last year it wasn't that difficult to pin them to your suit. As much as I hate to admit this, the only time the kids at the pool with me wears theirs is when they're on the boards. And that's because I insist they do. Tom Thanks for the link. I'm going to read the info when I get home. | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 365 Registered: 1-2004  |
Brett, you are correct that this is not an easy problem to solve. The point I was making is that there are individual expectations for basic services to be performed. I feel one half hour response time is unacceptable. I do not think this is a one off incident. If others agree then there needs to be some balance of priorities in solving the issue. The Fire Department has proposed taking on these responsibilities and in fact trained some of the personnel as EMT's. It was impression that we have subcontracted to EMTAC for these services currently. We should understand what is an acceptable response time, have some sense of what has been the performance and make rational decisions on solving problems if they exist. At this time I have only personal observations. | ||
| Katie Citizen Username: Shoregirl Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 |
FYI - Paul was not at the pool when this happened. The young girl fell off the ladder - hit her head and back - was gasping, because she had the wind knocked out of her and laid on the grass (she was moved off the concrete)for thirty minutes plus the time it took the 2 men to amble up to her. Howard and all that question why there is not a better solution to the day time coverage are not wrong - they seem to me to be concerned citizens who care about what happens at the pool. Just think - how would you feel if it was your child lying there for 3o minutes. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 9057 Registered: 1-2003  |
Howard, as statisticians say, a single point does not define a line. Do you have any numbers on average response time? If not, you're not really depicting how good or bad the squad is. You still haven't indicated the severity of the injuries. It's possible they put their resources into more pressing matters, which could explain the slow response. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1164 Registered: 12-2003  |
Howard: You are saying that 30 minutes is not an acceptable response time to... WHAT? To a life-threatening emergency? To a paper cut? To a bruised lip? To a sprained ankle? To a headache? Give us the parameters. "At this time I have only personal observations." I'm still not sure exactly what you saw. You're saying you saw someone with a medical emergency who didn't get emergency care? What exactly was the emergency? | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 366 Registered: 1-2004 |
A call for emergency service. Whom do you think should triage the situation? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 9158 Registered: 5-2001 |
Volunteer ambulance corps can't charge for their services and without charging would not be able to pay EMTs or drivers, although I am not sure of the legality of such payments in the first place. I know in some states volunteer fire companies have some paid employees, usually the chief and possibly a driver or two. Anybody want to be tiller man on a hook and ladder?  | ||
| hismom Citizen Username: Hismom Post Number: 268 Registered: 5-2001 |
The SOFAS does not provide coverage M-F daytime anymore. They simply do not have the volunteers. MONDOC (Monmouth Ocean County) is the contracted (ie paid) ambulance service covering most of the area now that St Barnabas is out of the ambulance biz. The SOFAS volunteers have acted on the complaint of long response times by now requiring the volunteers to be at the building for the duration of their shifts (6:30p-6:30a everyday and the weekend they also cover 6:30a-6:30p). I have had several friends with equally horrid stories of their experience with the paid ambulance but you can't blame the SOFAS for that. | ||
| mary brenner Citizen Username: Marybrenner Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2005 |
Howard I will say it again...you seem to always find the glass half empty. Why are you always finding problems with everything in the town as it relates to services and govt? Are you an expert on response time of emergency vehicles also? Or are you again just trying to stir the pot with the town gov't? Did you even call to find out why they responded the way they did? Did you call the police or rescue squad to ask why it took so long? Or are you just stirring the pot? Howard what is your next attack going to be? The Fire dept response time? The Police? The pizza delivery guy? | ||
| mary brenner Citizen Username: Marybrenner Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2005 |
My point is this. Instead of starting such a thread why dont you see if there is something you could do to help the situation. | ||
| Dust Buster Citizen Username: Coyote Post Number: 36 Registered: 4-2005 |
This problem should definately be brought up at the next Trustee meeting! | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 2232 Registered: 11-2001  |
What's wrong with stirring the pot, it needs it - the spaghetti is all clumped together!  | ||
| wbwallflower Citizen Username: Wbwallflower Post Number: 77 Registered: 7-2005 |
What's wrong with bringing it up on here? Everybody's entitled to share.. | ||
| Michael S. Koenemund Citizen Username: Kb1ckf_981 Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2003 |
I Don't know the circumstances, but did anybody wonder if the ambulance covering town was on another response when this incident came in, maybe they were already responding to a heart attack, stroke, a traffic accident or some other incident, the ambulances dont just wait for one persons call for assistance, they respond to everyone and even assist other towns when possible. My comments are in no way reflective of the SORS or the daytime contracted ambulance service MONOC (formally covered by EMTAC). | ||
| Pizzaz Supporter Username: Pizzaz Post Number: 2236 Registered: 11-2001 |
We all respect the services of EMTs. What a great group of volunteer effort. I think the point to be made is that alternative coverages should be available. The SOFD should be in the call zone during the daytime. They have trained EMTs, it would help. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2118 Registered: 1-2004 |
Okay everyone it seem the original concern of this thread, thus being the response time of the paid first aid squad is being lost here. What it comes down to is someone fell off the lader to one of the diving boards at the pool. She supposedly had the wind knocked out of her, and a 'litle bit of blood.' All the other side things aside -ie was she a guest, was she not a guest; the police just stood around, the guards did nothing. What matters is a call was placed to emergency services and according to Howard it took 30 minutes for the paid squad to get there. What I'm not understanding is why, if the South Orange Fire Dept has trained EMT's and they are willing to take on this responsibility, why aren't we letting them? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2119 Registered: 1-2004 |
Montrose - Just curious. Did you happen to be at the pool when this incident took place? Where did the information about the guest pass come from? Do you happen to know if Paul was there from the beginning? | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2120 Registered: 1-2004 |
Tom- For some reason I thought Maplewwood Fire responded during the day (they get paid don't they)? And MOFAS which is volunteer responded during the night. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2121 Registered: 1-2004 |
Tom- I can give you at least two examples where the paid squad, not South Orange First Aid Squad, took close to 1/2 hour to respond. Both were life-threatening situations. Both occured during the day. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2122 Registered: 1-2004 |
Mary- What is your beef with Howard? Did you happen to be at the pool when this incident occured? You ask Howard why he seems to attack the village government, my question to you is why you always seem to attack Howard. I would like to know why are we paying an outside company to cover our town during the day? If we can pay an outside company, which also sends a bill to those who use them, why can't the firepeople who are trained EMT's take on this responsibility if they are willing to? | ||
| red_alert Citizen Username: Red_alert Post Number: 158 Registered: 3-2005 |
A response time of 30 minutes is unacceptable any time 911 or emergency services are called. The assumption by any emergency service is that it could be life threatening. When they get to the scene they will then assess if it is really life threatening or if its just "a paper cut". 30 minutes could mean the escalation of a controlled medical issue into a life threatening one. Remember that if you called 911 for a loved one. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 9082 Registered: 1-2003 |
Auntie, I'm not saying that 30 minutes is acceptable in general. I'm just saying that this story alone is not an indicator of how good the service is. As others have pointed out, there are too many details missing to make an indictment. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1167 Registered: 12-2003 |
No, 911 emergency services do NOT "assume" every call is life threatening. They try to get as much information as they can. When a police officer or fire fighter is on the scene, they communicate with that person to get even more information, and updates. Calls are triaged all the time. If you call 911 because your cat is up a tree, and I call 911 5 mins later because I'm having chest pains, the truck is going to come to my house first, even though you called first. In this case, a police officer was on the scene within a few minutes. Howard has led us to believe he stood around doing a crossword puzzle, which is part of the reason I think we don't know the whole story. Everyone keeps saying, how would you feel if it were your child laying there for 30 minutes? So I just want to confirm: There was a child laying unattended with a medical emergency at the South Orange pool for 30 minutes while everyone waited for an ambulance to arrive, correct? Was she breathing during that time? Bleeding? | ||
| wbwallflower Citizen Username: Wbwallflower Post Number: 79 Registered: 7-2005 |
Howard has led us to believe he stood around doing a crossword puzzle, which is part of the reason I think we don't know the whole story. That's not what I got out of what Howard said.. sorry! | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1168 Registered: 12-2003 |
What Howard said in the very first post: "The police responded within the first five minutes but just stood by waiting for the EMT's." Perhaps he could elaborate on the "just stood by." | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1169 Registered: 12-2003 |
(Clarification: By "he," I mean the police officer, not Howard himself. How could I possibly know if Howard likes crossword puzzles?) | ||
| wbwallflower Citizen Username: Wbwallflower Post Number: 80 Registered: 7-2005 |
I interpretted it as the cop could not assist the girl. His wording may have been a little off but I didn't take it as the cop was doing anything wrong. I THINK that his point was to direct our attention at the half hour wait. Maybe we don't know all of the details but I don't see why people are attacking Howard. He reported what he saw and shared his opinions whether you agree with them or not. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1171 Registered: 12-2003 |
but the title of this thread is "What is a reasonable response time for an ambulance?" and I'm saying: It depends. What were the circumstances? But no one seems to care about that. It's more fun to talk about the sky falling, apparently. If anyone wants to tell me that it takes 30 minutes EVERY TIME someone calls 911 in a TRUE MEDICAL EMERGENCY for an ambulance to arrive in South Orange, yes, I'll join you in the panic attack. But if we're basing this all on what some people saw and overheard at the pool one day, it feels a bit absurd. Also, I realize no one cares about this anymore, and I hate to keep being such a pest, but... again... does anyone, ANYONE, know what actually happened to this girl? Stopped breathing? Bleeding? No one gave her CPR? No one tried to help her? Cops "just stood around"? What about lifeguards? No one else working at pool? Any parents around? Anyone offer her a bandaid? Anyone? Will have to remember to bring a sharp knife next time I go to the pool in case I need to remove my own appendix. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 2126 Registered: 1-2004 |
Would people feel differently if they were told the father was there and did not feel it was necessary for the squad to come? Would it make a difference if the child was not a quest? Sometimes things aren't as they seem. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 9087 Registered: 1-2003 |
But Auntie, the squad is not there to cater to the parents' emotions. They are there to provide the necessary care. My daughter fell on her bike on the road, and she was screaming. Her knee was so horrible bashed that there was white stuff showing, not blood, and I thought it might be bone. We called for an ambulance, who would not take her to the hospital because it wasn't the emergency I thought it was. They were right. Parents and others will sometimes suffer anguish like this. That doesn't mean it has to be treated as an emergency, and the anguish doesn't make it one. They will feel as if they are not getting the care they need, but later, if they get back to rational thought, they will realize that they were not cheated. | ||
| mary brenner Citizen Username: Marybrenner Post Number: 52 Registered: 7-2005 |
Just the aunt...it is very simple. Howard created a thread without getting all the facts which he could have if he wanted to! it is quite obvious to me that he is using this board to continue his campaign. He trying to act as the very concerned resident while campaigning. If he was so concerned about the situation at the pool why not personally go ot the police station, rescue squad and get all the facts and then make a thread with exactly what happened. My son goes to the pool all the time and this is not something I need to be thinking about unless it is 100% true! So that is why I have a problem with Howard! And by the way I asked many residents this past weekend at the pool if they have ever had need to call for help in south orange and everyone had a story. And every story was they were more than pleased with the response time and level of help the police, fire or rescue squad supplied! | ||
| Old and Gray Citizen Username: Pastmyprime Post Number: 184 Registered: 2-2005 |
Mary...Do you have some personal vendetta against Howard? Because there is obviously something going there that we don't have all the facts about? | ||
| Brett Weir Citizen Username: Brett_weir Post Number: 826 Registered: 4-2004  |
I think these are important issues to discuss and Howard is certainly entitled to bring them to the forefront. I do think he could have done a little leg work before starting his thread- his first post was about twenty minutes after the cops and ambulance left. | ||
| wbwallflower Citizen Username: Wbwallflower Post Number: 92 Registered: 7-2005 |
My thoughts exactly Old.. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 9170 Registered: 5-2001 |
There seems to be some indication that response was slow because the little girl was not seriously injured. How was this determined since neither the lifeguards nor the South Orange police officers are EMT trained? | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1180 Registered: 12-2003 |
Bob K: It's almost as if we.... don't have all the facts. All I know is what Howard told me. A girl wasn't breathing and was bloody, a police officer stood around doing nothing, and an ambulance finally showed up 30 minutes later. I hope her family sues the town for every penny it has. Case closed. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 2168 Registered: 4-2002 |
Dave: Can you move the resposne shown in the sub-thread to show up on this thread. I am guessing he did not mean to post it there. /discus/messages/3133/87266.html?1124203434 | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 9172 Registered: 5-2001 |
It may be a question of when the ambulance was called. Sometimes with a less than critical injury it takes the patient or their parent/caregiver a while to make up their minds. | ||
| Montrose13 Citizen Username: Montrose13 Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2004 |
cmontyburns--you were there? If so you would know that she was indeed cut but not bloody... She was breathing but scared. Why do you advocate ligitation when there is no basis for it? Make trouble elsewhere. With your parameters the town should sue the girl's family for using the premises falsely and also sue the girl's hosts for not properly supervising a guest. That would send a message. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1181 Registered: 12-2003 |
(Montrose13: I wasn't there... I was being sarcastic.....) Unfortunately, it looks like the facts may get in the way of yet another controversy, if the link Mrosner provided above is true: "My name is Joe Acciavatti and I am the Regional Director for MONOC. I head read this thread and looked in to the situation and found that the information posted here is false. In reviewing the response time I found that the EMS response was below the national average of 8 minutes. We calculate our response time from the first phone ring in the MONOC dispatch center to the time the ambulance signs on location. If the family would like to speak with me I can review this case in greater detail. If there is a community concern I can meet with a group to discuss community EMS concerns. I can be reached at 1-800-287-3515 x1180" Howard, any thoughts? |
