| Author | Message | ||
     Old Toad Citizen Username: Skewer1 Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2005 |
Have a few friends who are thinking of moving to this area in general (NYC commuters who want good schools, communities and commutes). Thought I'd ask the knowledgeable MOL community for help on this. Could you please list the differences in staying in the following towns in all the general factors (diversity in the town, quality of downtown or the lack of it, younger v/s older population, newer v/s older housing, quality of government, etc): Chatham Madison Summit Livingston Short Hills Millburn / Maplewood South Orange Westfield We'll all keep in mind that the aim isn't to flare up people with opinions against their towns (everyone's entitled to their own opinions) but rather enumerate differences (minor they may be) between the communities that would help newbies make a decision on where to move into. Thx | ||
| ken (the other one) Citizen Username: Ken Post Number: 374 Registered: 5-2001  |
oh...this is going to be good... | ||
| crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 438 Registered: 1-2004 |
looks like you need a spreadsheet. Chatham- lily white and expensive Madison- lily white and expensive and further away than chatham Summit- Nice town but housing is expensive Livingston- jewish and newer houses. Not on train line to city. Short Hills- the haves and the have mores and expensive. Just voted for a democrat for mayor. Millburn - see above. Also, They have maplewood envy (they like the village)though happy to be paying lower taxes for smaller houses in a rich town. Maplewood- Best, older houses and nicest people.  Black/white racial mix as well as economic diversity not found in the towns above. South Orange- See Maplewood. Town politics are a disaster, though. Westfield-nice town, lower taxes relatively cause it's Union Co, but not as good of a manhattan commute. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 3681 Registered: 1-2004  |
Hoo boy! Someone opened a can of worms! To be blunt, none of the places you listed, with the exception of South Orange Maplewood, are very diverse. Chatham, Millburn / Short Hills, and Summit are VERY wealthy. You can get twice as much house in South Orange / Maplewood for the same amount of money. If your friends work in NYC, Livingston doesn't have a train station. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14464 Registered: 10-2001  |
Maplewood - best place to live in the whole country, even with high taxes being a problem. Are there other places worth looking at? (No) | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4250 Registered: 5-2001 |
Summit and Westfield have the best downtowns in terms of size, variety and usefulness, with Millburn close behind. Maplewood's right in the middle. Madison's is very attractive, but kind of dull. Downtown South Orange has potential it is unlikely to reach, because of the poor town leadership. Chatham's is too small and limited, plus clogged with traffic. Livingston and Short Hills have none to speak of. | ||
| steel Citizen Username: Steel Post Number: 943 Registered: 2-2002 |
Nobody lives in "Millburn/Maplewood". | ||
| Hank Zona Supporter Username: Hankzona Post Number: 5163 Registered: 3-2002 |
its a wannabe term if there ever was one | ||
| snowmom Citizen Username: Snowmom Post Number: 326 Registered: 5-2001 |
crabby- great synopsis! But you omitted the large Asian influx in Livingston and somewhat in M/SH | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 1403 Registered: 3-2004 |
If you play your train times right, South Orange is but a hop, skip, and a jump from Penn Station in Manhattan. | ||
| Zoesky1 Citizen Username: Zoesky1 Post Number: 1347 Registered: 6-2003  |
I have lived in both Maplewood (for 7 years) and Livingston (since August 2005). Livingston and Maplewood are VERY different. If your friend values excellent schools, Livingston schools do perform better in terms of testing, facilities (the high school just approved a $56 million bond referendum to add things that a modest college would be happy to have, and it's already a spectacular campus), and other measures (the HS is ranked #14 in the state). I have also found there are more amenities in terms of an enormous, newly renovated library, two town pools, a huge YMCA, and basic government services (for example, we have bulk trash pickup once a month, and garbage is free...included in taxes). However, if your friend values a train station, there isn't one...I drive to Maplewood (10-15 minutes) and park here. It's not entirely true that there is no downtown here, it's just not same type. There are many, many, many places to shop right here in town (more shops than Maplewood), including an excellent Shop Rite, but it's not as walkable as Maplewood. That said, an enormous town center complex called Livingston Town Centre is about to open, which is a sort of old-fashioned downtown, albeit new and contrived. If your friend values diversity, Livingston has it, but not in terms of black/white. It's more Asian/white. My daughter's kindergarten class has 11 Asian kids out of 21 kids, literally about half. Yet there are no black kids in the class. It's also a very Jewish town. If your friend wants to avoid high taxes, the town is great for that --- the main reason I had to move was because as a single mom and homeowner, I was spending too much on property taxes given my income (I was paying about $12,000 a year on a small 3-bedroom house). I now spend $6200 a year on a 4-bedroom house on a bigger lot. However, the neighborhood I live in is not as charming, arguably, as Maplewood, and I have not found the neighbors to be as friendly (then again, to be fair, I work full time and I'm barely ever around, so for all I know, they consider ME unfriendly). I think Maplewood is a far cuter, more attractive town than Livingston, and the housing stock in Maplewood is much nicer. But your friend may not value that as much as the above factors....for me, it was a purely financial decision to move here, and I will say, I miss Maplewood a lot. I can't speak for the other towns firsthand, but what people above have said seems to ring true. | ||
| cody Citizen Username: Cody Post Number: 906 Registered: 5-2001 |
My mom lives in Summit. It's an expensive town. It does have a definite downtown shopping area, but many of the older town residents are complaining that it is mostly real estate offices and restaurants. The 5&10 closed, at least one of the pharmacies has closed, Sealfon's (a nice, small department store) recently closed. There are sections of the town with smaller homes, and it's not completely lily-white, but it is very, very expensive to live there. It is on the main Midtown Direct Line into Manhattan, which is handy. | ||
| Jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 28 Registered: 1-2006 |
I've lived in Montclair, Bloomfield, Summit, West Orange and, now South Orange. Montclair has Montclair State University and South Orange has Seton Hall. The presence of a college campus has a huge effect on the community, one that I think is positive. There is a greater likelyhood of live music, open mikes/poetry readings, and things tend to stay open later, plus there is more food delivery. Bloomfield and West Orange are more working class, probably because they're a more difficult commute. Although, West Orange does have a jitney, which I think takes you to South Orange's train station. Summit is a town that has no college and a lot of settled families. It closes after 6 pm. Try eating out in Montclair then go window shopping on Church Street. Then try the same in Summit - not possible. During the day, the Summit downtown has a lot of boutique stores filled with home decor stuff that I find totally useless. It's expensive and so it self-selects homeowners for whom money isn't an issue. However, there is a big Costa Rican population in Summit, too: mostly house cleaners and landscapers and there are some eateries that cater to this population, which can be interesting. In Summit, THAT'S what's interesting... South Orange is the best. Maplewood is cool only because of it's affiliation with South Orange.  | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 4709 Registered: 9-2001  |
...nice job Crabby. And, everyone has been pretty honest with their comments. FWIW, Sbenois sums it all up best with "Maplewood - best place to live in the whole country... "  | ||
| Barbara Citizen Username: Blh Post Number: 596 Registered: 5-2001  |
Just curious - what's with labeling towns "Jewish" as one of the descriptors? (Two responders did this relative to Livingston.) Does that mean that the other towns are assumed to be "Christian" or "Protestant" or "Catholic?" Does lily white not include people that are Jewish? Does the desciptor Jewish mean that there are certain qualities (+/-) in the town? Again, just curious? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10365 Registered: 5-2001 |
Zoesky, if you look at disaggregated school test scores SOM schools many sub groups here outperform Livingston in most grade levels. | ||
| Valley_girl Citizen Username: Valley_girl Post Number: 102 Registered: 12-2004 |
The more they like NYC, the happier they will be in S.O. and Maplewood. The less they like NYC, the farther out in the 'burbs they can move. Maplewood & South Orange go together, and Millburn goes more with Short Hills. We have beautiful old houses, from around $450 to $1M. They have newer houses, starting around $650 and going through McMansion. Westfield would be in the running, but you have to change trains to get there, and it takes a long time. Summit is the last stop that's easy commute. After that, you really are approaching Pennsylvania. | ||
| Valley_girl Citizen Username: Valley_girl Post Number: 103 Registered: 12-2004 |
P.S. Morristown should probably be on that list too. Fun, vibrant town--just kind of a long commute. Montclair too--but likewise, a long commute. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1602 Registered: 5-2001 |
Valley girl - Perfect! re:
Not to quibble - but I would add if you really really like NYC (esp. the upper West Side) Montclair is your first pick. Maplewood and SO are great, but Montclair really feels like a city/town - they have a museum, a college, lots of "cute shops", a huge book store, tons of rentals, etc. | ||
| Wilkanoid Citizen Username: Cseleosida Post Number: 547 Registered: 10-2002 |
Thread drift -- where are the Costa Rican eateries in Summit, Jersey Boy? | ||
| Sherri De Rose Citizen Username: Honeydo Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2005 |
Why do people think that Millburn is only for the Rich. We live 3 blocks in from the Maplewood border and our block is anything but "Rich". We are all working class families living in smallish houses. Millburn is quite affordable if you choose a normal size house. I do agree with the Short Hills comments though. But I have the best of all worlds, I can walk to Maplewood centre and Millburn centre. Both a mile away. I have enjoyed the surrounding towns for 22 years. Why not check out Cranford? They have a wonderful downtown and a train runs through it. Don't know anything about the schools though. | ||
| Ace789nj Citizen Username: Ace789nj Post Number: 214 Registered: 2-2005  |
My vote for understatement of the year: "South Orange- See Maplewood. Town politics are a disaster, though. " Thank you Crabby | ||
| kriss Citizen Username: Kriss Post Number: 242 Registered: 6-2001 |
I rented in Cranford for a couple of years before we bought here. It is a nice town, but the commute is miserable - it is on the Raritan line (Westfield is too). You have to change trains in Newark, plus part of the railway going into Newark is shared with Conrail - so, many a morning we were delayed waiting for an unbearably slow freight train to pass, which of course meant a missed connection and a 15-30 minute longer commute. The commute from M/SO is a thousand times better. | ||
| Jennifer Pickett Citizen Username: Jpickett Post Number: 140 Registered: 4-2005 |
You can't go wrong with any of those communities. We considered them all. Maplewood and SO are most affordable (house prices). Millburn and Summit have express trains. Livingston is not very walkable, but has larger lots. I would suggest cruising open houses in all areas just to get an idea of what house you get for the money, since it varies widely. We are very happy that we chose Maplewood. | ||
| Jersey Boy Citizen Username: Jersey_boy Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2006 |
Wilkaloid, Summit has a section I used to call "Little Costa Rica." There are two places that are Costa Rican owned. They are down by Rolf's Auto Repair. There's a building there with a sign that says Costa Rican Imports or something. I forget the names of the streets, but there are two deli-type places. One is actually a pizzeria, but everyone in there is Costa Rican, and Spanish is the primary language. The convenience store next to the Exxon (Mobil?) also sells empinadas that I assume are made by the Spanish speaking woman who's always behind the counter. I assume she's Costa Rican because most of the Spanish speakers in Summit are. You can even assume people are from Naranjo in C.R. and usually be correct. Okay, maybe the convenience store doesn't qualify as an "eatery", but the other two are easy places to get lunch with a Costa Rican flare. Not out-to-dinner stuff, but if you go to Costa Rica, they can ease your re-entry to the U.S. iPura Vida! | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10368 Registered: 5-2001 |
Valley Girl, the commute via NJ Transit from Montclair takes almost exactly the same amount of time as from MW and SO. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10369 Registered: 5-2001 |
Valley Girl, the commute via NJ Transit from Montclair takes almost exactly the same amount of time as from MW and SO. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12000 Registered: 1-2003  |
...Millburn goes more with Short Hills... Short Hills is part of Millburn, though I suppose the residents of Short Hills don't want to admit it. Short Hills is not a town in any legal sense. It is zip code, i.e. a creation of the post office. There may be history of them being separate towns, but it's not true any more. I understand that Madisonians (is that what they're called) look upon it's neighbor, Chatham, as richer and more snooty. Madison is more ethnically diverse than Chatham is. Of course, this is yet another generalization. My doctor works in Maplewood and lives in Westfield and wishes he lived in Maplewood. He says Westfield is too snooty, though I know many non-snooty Westfielders. | ||
| jeffl Supporter Username: Jeffl Post Number: 1535 Registered: 8-2001 |
I take out food from the Costa Rican deli in Summit about 2 - 3 times a week. PL me if you need directions. It's the best. | ||
| taam Citizen Username: Taam Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2006 |
I know that the Short Hills / Millburn HS is extremely overcrowded (as is Columbia HS.) -For a town that is known to be one of the most expensive towns in NJ (& the snootiest), it's worth noting. - Not to mention, surprising. But many residents there are up in arms about it. That's one huge problem people have w/ paying all these taxes...overcrowded schools shouldn't be such a problem, & that goes for both M/SO & M/SH. They're all towns that pay a ton in taxes. | ||
| crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 439 Registered: 1-2004 |
Barbara- I think the "jewish" labels just means more predominant than "average". In the case of Livingston I think it conotes the derogatory term of "jappy". To me, "lily white" means Protestant/Catholic (ye olde "waspy"). SOmeone used "snooty", could be the new "waspy" "jappy". Sheri- see my comment above for Millburn. You, personally, may not term yourself as "rich", but indeed youare a "have" (versus "have more"). In terms of the school population, M/SH has no free/reduced lunch recipients, where as M/SO has something like 18%. This reflects the economic diversity of which I spoke. taam- Columbia is not really overcrowded considering that in the 70s there were 2500 students in that building grades 10-12. There are now 2000 in grades 9-12. | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 3045 Registered: 5-2001 |
Catholic can't be "waspy" since the p in WASP stands for Protestant. (White Anglo Saxon Protestant) | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 195 Registered: 10-2005 |
As a recent buyer/explorer of both towns, this might be helpful: Maplewood/SO: 3 BR 1.5 Bath starter homes from $350-$500k (Depending on part of town/plot). Many homes walking distance to train. Millburn/SH: Same home ranges from $500-$800, depending on location, but taxes $4-6K lower. Some homes walking distance to train. Livingston: No homes like the 3 BR 1.5 bath colonial, most are more modern 50's style vs the 30's Center hall colonial. Much lower taxes. No walking to the train at all. Montclair has reasonable priced starter homes, most gorgeous architecture, but higher taxes and only some in walking distance to the train. | ||
| crabby Citizen Username: Crabbyappleton Post Number: 441 Registered: 1-2004 |
sac- yes, but you get the picture, no? | ||
| Wilkanoid Citizen Username: Cseleosida Post Number: 548 Registered: 10-2002 |
Thanks, Jersey Boy. jeffl, I just PL'd you for directions. I think I've seen the Costa Rican import sign on Broad Street on the way into Summit, but I'm not sure if that's it. I may send my Mr. W to pick up empanadas just to check them out! | ||
| Eponymous Citizen Username: Eponymous Post Number: 21 Registered: 6-2004 |
Tom Reingold wrote: "I understand that Madisonians (if that what they're called) look upon it's neighbor, Chatham, as richer and more snooty. Madison is more ethnically diverse than Chatham is. Of course, this is yet another generalization. " Actually, Tom, it isn't. It's a factual statement about the ethnic diversity of those two towns. (And I think it's probably accurate: Madison has a long-standing and fairly large Italian population, for example, some of which is very well off, some not.) http://www.census.gov/ is always good for data. Among other things, you'll note that Madison's per capita income is just a smidge above Maplewood's (+4.5%). It would be interesting to see the income distributions for these towns. You'll notice that only Chatham has a per-capita income that's more than 1/2 the household median, for example. Chatham Borough (not township) ---------------------- Total population 8,460 White 8,104 95.8% Black or African American 12 0.1% Hispanic or Latino (of any race) 223 2.6% Median household income in 1999 (dollars) 101,991 Median family income in 1999 (dollars) 119,635 Per capita income in 1999 (dollars) 53,027 Madison (07940) ---------------------- Total population 16,571 White 14,865 89.7% Black or African American 498 3.0 12.3% Hispanic or Latino (of any race) 987 6.0% Median household income in 1999 (dollars) 82,915 Median family income in 1999 (dollars) 101,914 Per capita income in 1999 (dollars) 38,451 07040 Maplewood ---------------------- Total population 23,829 White 13,995 58.7% Black or African American 7,786 32.7% Hispanic or Latino (of any race) 1,247 5.2% Median household income in 1999 (dollars) 79,683 Median family income in 1999 (dollars) 92,679 Per capita income in 1999 (dollars) 36,795 | ||
| shoshannah Citizen Username: Shoshannah Post Number: 1148 Registered: 7-2002 |
Madison is also a college town, with Drew and Farleigh Dickinson. | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 3691 Registered: 1-2004 |
You forgot Saint E's! (which is actually in 'Convent Station). | ||
| Wendyn Supporter Username: Wendyn Post Number: 2646 Registered: 9-2002  |
Ok, I'll modify Crabby's comments with my own: Chatham- lily white and expensive but low taxes. There are two sections of Chatham, Chatham Boro (closer to town, smaller, older homes, more expensive) and Chatham Township (farther from town, bigger, newer homes with larger lots, less expensive for what you get). Chatham Township residents can't get train parking passes. My dad is in the Township and has to park in Murray Hill or Berkeley Heights and take the train from there. School system is highly regarded (in the top 5 in the state) and they just passed a new bond to enhance it. Voted one of the best places to live in the country in 2005 by I think Fortune mag. Madison- Not quite as lily white or expensive as chatham but further away on the train. Lots of older colonials and 50's ranches. Cute town center. Close to Morristown. Long train ride. Lots are bigger than those closer to NYC. Summit- Nice downtown. Housing is expensive in the "northside" but cheaper in other areas. Great commuting town. More diverse than Chatham or Madison. Lowish taxes. Livingston- Not on train line to city. Newer homes. Schools rated very well. Short Hills- Very expensive. Lots of older estates and new mansions, as well as more modest homes that still cost a bundle. Shares a school system with Millburn which is considered one of the top in the state. Has its own train station with parking. Millburn - Shares a school system with Short Hills but less expensive. Primarily smaller homes on small lots that are pricey but lowish taxes (until the reval next year!). Maplewood - Great downtown. Less expensive than above towns but exorbitant taxes. Very diverse and liberal community. GREAT community pool! Shares a school system with South Orange. South Orange - Cute downtown. Lots of large older homes and more reasonable taxes than Maplewood. Shares a school system with Maplewood. Very diverse and liberal community. Home to Seton Hall main campus. Westfield - Mainly expensive older homes. Low taxes. Not great commute. Highly rated school system. Moderately diverse (like Summit, maybe a bit less). More conservative town. Nice downtown. If they are considering as far out as Madison they might want to consider: New Providence: Newer homes on larger lots that are less expensive but very high taxes. Not very diverse. Highly rated school system. Ok downtown. Ok commute. Not much charm but you can get more house for your money. Berkeley Heights: Newer homes on larger lots that are less expensive. Lower taxes. Ok schools. Boring downtown. Not very diverse. Commute about the same as Chatham/Madison. Not much charm but you can get more house for your money. | ||
| Morrisa da Silva Citizen Username: Mod Post Number: 338 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wilkanoid - Further thread drift. Did you know there is a costa rican luncheonette on Springfield avenue near Burnett? Haven't tried it but i heard it's good. |
