| Author | Message | ||
     Jelly Citizen Username: Jelly Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2005 |
OK, our puppy is 7 months old and not yet spayed. We are getting conflicting recommendations as to when to have her spayed. Some (including 1 vet) say asap. Some (including another vet) say to wait until she is a year old or until after her first heat cycle. Spaying early seems commonplace these days. Does anyone know of any legitimate reasons to wait? Thanks! | ||
| Just The Aunt Supporter Username: Auntof13 Post Number: 5107 Registered: 1-2004  |
Now... | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2340 Registered: 7-2003 |
Boys 6 months, girls 1 year or after her first heat cycle what ever comes first. The Spay operation is a little more intrusive so the older the dog is the faster she will heal. You may also want to wait on the boy if his testicals haven’t dropped. | ||
| MeAndTheBoys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 3790 Registered: 12-2004  |
Now. Can see no valid reason to wait until after the first heat. Not to mention female dogs in heat are really not a whole heck of a lot of fun to have around. They don't make doggy sanitary napkins for no reason. Seems the majority opinion is 6 months. Always has been for as long as I can remember (and we're talking decades). Shelters are doing very early spay/neuter so as to be sure no animals are left unaltered, and I have heard of no ill-effects of said procedure. | ||
| Calliope Citizen Username: Calliope Post Number: 245 Registered: 3-2006  |
Here's a link from the ASPCA. http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=adopt_spayneuter There are decided health benefits from spaying before her first heat. As mentioned by ME&, shelters and rescues are now offering infant spays, as developed by the vets at UPenn and other teaching hospitals. It offers extra assurance that "accidents" don't happen to adopted rescue dogs, and more unwanted dogs are not brought into the world. Some "old school" vets frown on infant spays, but in my experience they have been very successful. Please don't wait for her first heat (which could happen any minute now)and protect your animal's health as soon as possible. Calli | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6182 Registered: 5-2001  |
My vet says that the cancer rate for females who have experienced even one season is significantly higher than if they get fixed before first heat. | ||
| Oldstone Citizen Username: Rogers4317 Post Number: 707 Registered: 6-2004  |
mem, i agree...my female pup will be spayed just after she is 7 monthes...BEFORE her first heat. the doc told me that females generally go into their first heat around 10-11 monthes and it is best to do it before for many reasons. | ||
| dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 77 Registered: 5-2004 |
Of course the other side of that coin is that there is no good reason to alter an animal if you can practice basic husbandry. dOd | ||
| MeAndTheBoys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 3799 Registered: 12-2004 |
Bulldinky! | ||
| Calliope Citizen Username: Calliope Post Number: 249 Registered: 3-2006 |
Even making allowances for differing opinions,d0d,your remark was not responsive to the original question, was it? There was no issue of whether or not to get her spayed, the question-- from a responsible pet owner---not a breeder, was when is the best time to spay. | ||
| dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 78 Registered: 5-2004 |
Perhaps there needs to be. Just wanted to provide some food for thought. We've now taken castration, once done occassionally in pets, and turned it into a race concerned with how soon we can tear the reproductive organs from a puppy. Remember, the HSUS is lying to you and is working to take away all your pets. Simply put, if you don't want your dog to breed, control it. If your dog is meant to get uterine cancer you should probably know it for the overall health and betterment of the breed and not disguise the fact. I've always consdiered the health angle a specious argument. "By simply removing the uterus and ovaries we've completely prevented uterine cancer in dogs!" I had a dog blow out an ACL in his left rear leg. Should I remove the left rear legs on my next litter and knock the odds of it happening again way way down? There was an old cartoon in the New Yorker that summed it up. A dog is at the gates of dog heaven and looking up at St. Peter asks, "Any chance of getting my testicles back?" However, to answer the original question, if you are going to castrate the animal, there is no good time. It is an operation of covenience so do it when convenient. dOd | ||
| MeAndTheBoys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 3803 Registered: 12-2004 |
That is probably one of the most idiotic things I've heard anyone say in a very, very, very, very long time! | ||
| dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 79 Registered: 5-2004 |
That a dog at the end of his life wouldn't want his testicles back? By knife or poor breeding we're creating emasculated dogs that are sadly puppies in adult bodies. Why deny the animal its genetic potential? At any rate, this is off topic, so I'll go back to asking questions on how to fix my house. dOd | ||
| MeAndTheBoys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 3807 Registered: 12-2004 |
Male human beings are the only species on the planet that has an emotional attachment to their testicles. All other animals on the planet couldn't care less, and don't miss them when they're gone. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider  Post Number: 14402 Registered: 1-2003  |
What do you mean by genetic potential? Are you speaking of some entitlement to procreate? Are you saying procreation would do the world a service? | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6190 Registered: 5-2001 |
My puppy has to get fixed at 6 months. He has a testicle that isn't going to drop which can cause cancer and other major problems when he grows up. Snip snip.  | ||
| dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 81 Registered: 5-2004 |
MATB, I'm curious, what couldn't you apply that to? Because you can do such a thing is not reason enough to do such a thing. Tom, would you be the same person you are today physically had you been castrated as a child? Would you have the same personality? Would a dog lacking the ability to produce test grow up the same? Have the same temperament? We have dumbed down dogs enough. Early and unecessary castration adds to that. I've yet to hear the arguments for. mem, you can always have the testicle lowered. dOd | ||
| Oldstone Citizen Username: Rogers4317 Post Number: 708 Registered: 6-2004 |
why do some people enter into threads that ask a simple question and instead of responding with on-topic comments they feel the need to challenge the whole premise of the thread? what purpose does it serve? | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6192 Registered: 5-2001 |
They can't even find the other testicle, it's tangled up way up in his body and is most likely atrophied. He is going to need major surgery to first find it and then it has to go. | ||
| LilLB Citizen Username: Lillb Post Number: 1684 Registered: 10-2002  |
While I think we all personify a bit when it comes to our pets (it's hard not to), I truly doubt dogs/cats have an emotional attachment to their genitalia. Although, this thread is making me picture all the neutered/spayed pets sitting in a bar somewhere drowning their sorrows in beer wondering what could have been....  | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14404 Registered: 1-2003 |
Would I be the same? No. Better or worse? Who knows? Are you saying neutering makes them dumber or worse in other ways? We do have pets for our convenience. It is our prerogative to make them conform to our convenience. We don't consider neutering to be cruel. We consider it humane, because it's important to control the population, which is already somewhat out of control. Animals won't meet their potentials if they don't have proper homes, and they won't if there are too many animals. Would you care to take a crack at my questions? I don't consider your questions to me to be answers to my questions. | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 1881 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mem - tangled testicles? Eeewww! P.S. A Crafty Hint: Embalm the balls and make a nifty set of bookends for that oh-so-difficult-to shop-for-manly-man on your Christmas list. We adopted our pup from the the JAC with a big set o' swinging balls - he peed everywhere, humped all the time and pretty much scared off all living creatures. Post-surgery he still has his enthusiasm for life, doesn't seem to miss his balls, but the randowm humping (sometimes he bled on a piece of furniture) is just a memory. The world is full of homeless animals, a responsible pet owner spays and nueters ASAP. | ||
| dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 83 Registered: 5-2004 |
Tom, when you say "we" do you mean your family, the collective board or the world at large? You have to undestand that I value working dogs and hold fast to the belief that a dog must be able to do the job for which it was intended. That is the true meaning of temperament, too often confused with "personality." A hunting dog that can't hunt should not be encouraged. I believe that altering a male dog and cutting off the testosterone supply at a young age affects the physical potential of a dog as well as its temperament. I find it a little disheartening to say that we have the perogative to make animals conform to our convenience. I would counter by saying that you have a responsibility to ensure the animal becomes what it should be and not some watered down bastardized example of a once great and useful breed. It's really not that hard; find a decent breeder and a good trainer. While we're on the topic of responsibilty, that to me is where the nueter argument falls apart. Are people in the habit of letting their dogs run loose throughout Maplewood? Are they incapable of confining them? That was my original point about basic care. If you don't want your animal to breed, don't let it. To castrate it seems to me a bizarre shirking of that responsibility. Now, I'll readily admit that there seems to be a chunk of the population that can't handle carring for their animals. Since we can't prevent them from owning animals, they should nueter. Or should be nuetered. I can't decide which. Hope that answered your question, Tom. To those who felt I've hijacked or challenged the thread, we're all adults and I'm sure that Jelly can handle a contrary point of view without breaking down. dOd | ||
| Calliope Citizen Username: Calliope Post Number: 254 Registered: 3-2006 |
You have to undestand that I value working dogs and hold fast to the belief that a dog must be able to do the job for which it was intended. That is the true meaning of temperament, too often confused with "personality." A hunting dog that can't hunt should not be encouraged. dOd, With all due respect, perhaps there are a few things that you have to understand. This thread was started by a pet owner (not a working dog owner) who was simply soliciting advice as to the optimal timing for spaying a puppy. The responses were from other loving pet owners, not commercial trainers, not breeders, not schutzhunders. These responders are people who accept animals into their homes, and treat them as family. That does not necessarily mean that they anthropomorphize them,(and, so what if they do?) it simply means that they accept and welcome the love, devotion, and joy that comes from having a pet. That’s it—a pet, a companion animal. Dogs who work, K-9, guard dogs, service dogs, sled dogs, hunting dogs, and so on, serve a different purpose in peoples’ lives, and you will pardon me for saying so, but they are a breed apart. As recently as 20 years ago, when spaying or neutering was not commonplace, there was a far greater incidence of mammary tumors, pyometra, and complications from pregnancy in bitches, and testicular tumors, anal-rectal tumors and prostate problems in dogs. Safeguarding a companion animal’s health is a vital component to responsible pet guardianship. I am not interested in engaging you in a debate because you are literally comparing apples to oranges. If you wish to continue in this vein, I suggest you start another thread in the Soapbox. Calli | ||
| dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 84 Registered: 5-2004 |
Years ago, I dated a woman from Quebec. She was 40 at the time, yet had dentures. I thought that a little odd until she explained that it was quite common for people of her generation and earlier to have their teeth removed when they were teens as it cut down on the incidence of dental decay. I kid you not. Saying that we've cut down on testicular tumors by removing testicles seems a rather poor use of surgery and does zero for the overall health of the breed. By the way, I would include "companion" in the jobs that dogs do. I simply wouldn't respect them less. So, I'm not comparing apples to oranges, but directly addressing the reasons for spaying and nuetering dogs. I truly have nothing against Bob Barker. dOd | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6197 Registered: 5-2001 |
My dog has this: What does cryptorchidism mean to your dog & you? Dogs that are cryptorchid have a much increased risk of testicular cancer (approximately 10 times). Castration will of course eliminate this risk. Dogs with cryptorchidism can not be shown. How is cryptorchidism diagnosed? Your veterinarian will diagnose this condition when s/he examines your dog at the time of vaccination. Most affected dogs have 1 testicle that is not descended. How is cryptorchidism treated? The only treatment for this condition is removal of both testicles (neutering or castration). Dogs with cryptorchidism should be castrated for 2 reasons: if the testicles are not removed, there is an increased risk of testicular cancer, and if your dog is bred, the trait will be passed on to future generations. Breeding advice Affected dogs should be not be bred. It is best not to breed their parents as well, who carry the gene. FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THIS DISORDER, PLEASE SEE YOUR VETERINARIAN. Copyright © 1998 Canine Inherited Disorders Database. All rights reserved. Revised: December 05, 2001. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14409 Registered: 1-2003 |
Actually, I don't buy the argument of cancer risk, either. Sure, you can show the data, and it might well be valid, but it's not the driving reason we neuter our pets. dOd, I used the term "we" only to avoid the passive voice, i.e. "it is considered..." I meant "those of us who favor neutering feel..." Again, you haven't answered my questions to you. Why is that? | ||
| Wendyn Supporter Username: Wendyn Post Number: 3115 Registered: 9-2002  |
If I, as a human, were going to have sexual urges most of my life but be prevented from satisfying them I'd rather not have the urges at all. Even if it meant surgury. It would make my quality of life a lot better if I wasn't focused on how frustrated I am all the time. And if I were a dog that frustration is much greater (especially for males) as they have less to distract themselves from those urges than I do. | ||
| dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 85 Registered: 5-2004 |
Tom, sorry, it took me a while to get back to you. I was at the doctor's office setting up a preventative appendectomy. Is it really that difficult to understand what I'm saying? If you remove something that affects the physical or temperamental apects of a dog then you've limited its genetic potential. To answer your questions bluntly: no, there isn't an entitlement to procreate; and no, procreation does not do the world a service. Hope that helps. dOd | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14422 Registered: 1-2003 |
As an animal's owner, I decide how much of the animal's potential I want it to reach. I have a greyhound, who has a potential to race. By adopting him, I have decided he won't race again. We earn this prerogative by taking care of animals and giving them good lives. I think best the rationale for vegetarianism lately is that we have broken the contract of giving animals decent lives before we eat them. While we treat them well, I think it is for them to do what we decide, including whether they procreate. And is restraining them physically from mating really different than from giving them surgery? | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 2118 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'm sorry to say but the dogs that haven't been spayed or neutered (thanks oldstone) (mostly males that I notice) at the dog parks are USUALLY the menaces. Very often aggressive. All it takes is ONE dog to stir up a HEAP or problems in a dog park. To me that is the second biggest reason to fix your pet. The first being...DUH...to control the animal population. Accidents happen ALL the time. That is why petfinder.com is FULL, completely FULL, of Labradoodles and other pure-bred pedigree mixes. Just because you spent money on a pure-breed doesn't mean that you are going to breed dogs yourself. Getting the animals spayed doesn't make them any less valuable. But it does prevent any chance of your pet accidentally escaping and mating with the neighbors pooch or for that matter a quick insertion at the dog park. | ||
| Oldstone Citizen Username: Rogers4317 Post Number: 713 Registered: 6-2004 |
bitches (females) are spayed, dogs (males) are neutered. | ||
| dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 86 Registered: 5-2004 |
Tom, "I decide how much of the animal's potential I want it to reach." I understand what you are saying, though I do find it somewhat demeaning to the animal. You say your dog won't race again. That implies he was a racing dog at some point and is now retired. A noble thing you did. The dog has strived for exactly what he must and I consider that a life well lead. However, preventing him from chasing down the occasional squirrel now, I would consider cruel. So, if you have a sled dog hook him up and let him pull you. He doesn't have to run the Iditirod to taste the wind in his face. There are a million alternatives that approximate and satisfy the breed's inherent drives. It is a misuse of the relationship we have with dogs to confine them and force him to watch their life's work happen before their eyes. I recognize that I probably stand alone here. Have a good one. dOd | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14425 Registered: 1-2003 |
When I applied to adopt a greyhound, I withstood a 40 minute lecture and had to promise never to let him off leash unless he was fenced in. Sighthounds, which greyhounds are among, will chase things they see, and they will forget their training to obey and stay. Letting a greyhound go endangers him. So I comply with the admonishment, for his own good. Natural urges are not always constructive. Human nature is to control and guide man's own nature and to manipulate animals' and plants' natures, in hope of making a better world. If you tend to your lawn or garden, you will be familiar with this concept. You don't want it to run wild. And you don't eat wild food; you eat cultivated food. We have bred dogs not to be predatory. If we hadn't, they would be unsuitable pets. Their original nature was dangerous to us. I see little wrong with continuing to make the dog/man relationship better, mutually. Spaying and neutering is a part of that. Overpopulation is not in anyone's interest. | ||
| dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 87 Registered: 5-2004 |
See, I don't understand that contradiction. You'll comply with the order to not let your greyhound off lead (and I'm sure you do a very good job of it) yet you'll nueter so as to prevent unwanted litters. When is your dog in a position to mount or be mounted? No one is advocating letting your animals (dogs especially) have their head. I strongly urge people to control their dogs with a much firmer hand then the average pet owner seems capable of. However, taking your dog once a week to the reservation and letting him off to hunt a few rabbits would do much for his soul and remind you why you fell in love wth the breed in the first place. Nothng quite as beautiful as a greyhound in flight. I am an avid gardener and understand the concept of controlling nature as I'm sure you understand that as much as we may try it is futile. A paved road left untended will be a jungle within a few short years. It is a fun game, this controlling nature, but a mug's game nonetheless. Dogs are predatory, like it or not. From the large to the small, they'll chase moving objects when given the chance. It is one of the drives that allows us to control them. Now much of the true prey drive has been bred out of them by idiotic pet and show breeders who've somehow managed to convince the country that a breed is nothing but a physical representation of a standard and what goes on within the mind is irrelevant and even dangerous. So we have champion dobermanns that cower in fear, collies that cannot herd and greyhounds that will not hunt. Castration dumbs the relationship down, Tom. dOd | ||
| Oldstone Citizen Username: Rogers4317 Post Number: 718 Registered: 6-2004 |
d0d, trust me...the castration of my male border terrier has NOT hampered his drive to chase squirrels, chipmunks and cats out of my backyard...and he still mounts my female pup about a thousand times a day. he loves it. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 6201 Registered: 5-2001 |
dOd, I do hope your house is filled with rescues then, from JAC, Petfinder, and/or Newark pound. If so - cheers. If not, then your posts are just wind. The kind you get after eating too much mexican food. Yum. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 2122 Registered: 10-2004 |
Oldstone, your dogs mounting is usually a sign of him/her exerting their dominance. In general it's not a good thing. I would suggest you reprimand the dog next time and prevent this behavior. | ||
| dOd Citizen Username: Dod Post Number: 88 Registered: 5-2004 |
I wish I could figure out how to quote people. Oldstone, castration wouldn't affect his prey drive. Shite breeding would. Nice dogs, Borders. mem, why would you say that? Where do I advocate letting dogs run amok and breed indiscriminately? If anything, I would say that amateurs should not breed dogs and prefer the German approach where dogs being bred have to be approved and tested otherwise they won't be registered. If you're castrating to prevent unwanted pregnancy, then I would say confine and control your animal. Really, how hard is that? We all ready have leash laws. Is there anyone here not living up to that responsibility? I've had dogs die of old age, intact and never bred. It simply comes down to personal responsibility. Now if someone is too stupid, greedy or irresponsible to keep their dogs from breeding than I would say, yes, spay and neuter your pets. Personally, I think their animals should be taken away, but that's not the way the world works these days. Unfortunately. dOd | ||
| Wendyn Supporter Username: Wendyn Post Number: 3121 Registered: 9-2002 |
You seriously think a sexually frustrated confined animal is happier than a castrated one? |
