| Author | Message | ||
     virgilian Citizen Username: Virgilian Post Number: 156 Registered: 7-2001 |
So many Maplewood homes are losing their fine windows to cheap vinyl and aluminum replacement windows. Most houses in town are well detailed and deserve a bit more investment than your average new vinyl tract house or ghetto replacement window project. The glaring white plastic now filling in the gouged "eyes" of a beautiful dark tudor or rose-bowered gambrel cottage does not do any style of house in our town justice. Windows for your house should cost more than a box of vinyl garbage bags. Replacing/disposing rather than fixing is the American way perhaps, but the town has been spared this destruction until recently and is the worse for it. Just look around. How could someone with a slate roof put plastic or aluminum trailer-home/spec house/ghetto sash into a house worth over half a million dollars? It's not very smart. | ||
| Richard O'Connor Citizen Username: Roconn Post Number: 70 Registered: 6-2001  |
Virgilian, I can see where there may be an aesthetic problem here for you, but in all the work I've done on my own house and others, there is just not much of a way to make our older double hung architecturally pleasing windows more energy efficient. I think what's happening is that replacement windows aren't cheap (even the cheapest run more than $100 a throw (in my research)) and the decision that ends up being made is what can I afford and how long does it take to pay back... I considered this when I had the first four of my windows done ... the new ones are MUCH MUCH MUCH more energy efficient, but I only did 4 as I have 'pretty plain' windows and so I don't have fears about custom looking windows... With some of the highly detailed architectural windows, sadly, particularly this time of year, energy efficiency and cost are winning over aesthetics. The only thing I would say to anyone is the replacements are going to save you long term so buy the most window you can at any moment .... I am ultimately going to do my house in 'phases' so that I can get the better more architecturally correct windows as I do the job. This is just not always an option ... and a lot of contractors/replacement companies don't want to do a few windows at a time. Most will, but invaribaly you end up paying a lot more for 4 windows than you would for 38. (on an each basis) And where the windows coming out may be architecturally fine ... when the houses were bought people weren't spending $400 a month to heat them. . . sadly drafts were considered good things in 1925 ... and today ... they aren't. So energy efficiency is having to give way to architecture. And if one really favors architecturally correct over efficient and no compromise is ok then well... You need to REMOVE YOUR storm windows ... they weren't there when your house was built and are very architecturally incorrect. Richard (ROC) --Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.-- --AIM: ROConn | ||
| virgilian Citizen Username: Virgilian Post Number: 157 Registered: 7-2001 |
Richard, I assume you're talking about aluminum storm windows. the wooden storm windows I have are like the originals that our houses all had. $100 is absurdly cheap for a window. Wood windows are fantastic insulators, better than aluminum obviously. New wood windows/maintained original wood windows are very energy efficient. | ||
| Richard O'Connor Citizen Username: Roconn Post Number: 73 Registered: 6-2001 |
Well, without going to history books, my guess is that if your house is more than 60 or so years old it did not originally have storm windows.... There is some evidence that the draft and leaks around our windows was for a long time considered a good thing. ... And yes, I meant if you had aluminum triple track storms.... And although exactly right, when my father (not me) did replacement windows in his 1956 house (last year) for energy efficiency the difference between white vinyl clad double glazing and custom wood double glazing (his original windows were 6 over 6 custom wood single glazing double hung solid cherry or oak) was a difference of nearly 2K per window, and his replacemnt windows were in the $600 each neighborhood. (if he'd gone with wood it would have jumped to about $45K) In my house (we have similar windows) that makes my window replacement job nearly $90K (if I use the 'correct' wood window). And that's betting I can get the prices he got ... which isn't likely. Richard (ROC) --Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.-- --AIM: ROConn | ||
| virgilian Citizen Username: Virgilian Post Number: 158 Registered: 7-2001 |
If it always does come down to just dollars then I'll retort: The financial aspect of windows being cheap, Home-Depot plastic "improvement" level right now, vs. the resale value of your house being lower because you stripped it of much that was good, is worth considering. And if it does come down to dollars, why are so many EXPENSIVE houses being abused with these inferior windows? If money rules all these decisions, why buy such expensive un-spoilt houses, and THEN start being a skin-flint? | ||
| virgilian Citizen Username: Virgilian Post Number: 159 Registered: 7-2001 |
Richard, Most houses in the 20's and 30's had wooden storm windows exchangeable with wooden screens. That's why the exterior jambs are usually rabetted the way they are, with a notch to hold them. Lucky neighbors still have the originals, wavy glass and all. | ||
| Richard O'Connor Citizen Username: Roconn Post Number: 77 Registered: 6-2001 |
Its not cost though ... I know in my case its about CASH FLOW ... at least 3 companies I talked to basically said NO to doing it a few windows at a time . . . If presented with 45K for perfect or 90k for exactly right (350k home) I am not going to get that 90K back out ... my home is not now or probably in the next few years going to be worth 440. For most buyers, (and in fact apraisals) replacement windows are replacement windows...they don't get extra points for having been better windows or more architecturally correct .... (there is in fact in my neighborhood a house with very expensive architecturally WRONG andersen windows...but it helped on resale as they were new efficient windows ...) So unless you're talking very long term investment and enjoyment ... most people aren't going to be able to justify the pricier windows.... I have found only one company who will do the windows a few at at time ... and even then its going to take me a couple of years to be able to do all 38 ... Sadly ... beyond a point ... the windows neither add nor take away from the value of a home ... So ... if you're an architectural purist ... its not an easy call ... as with everything all of us do .. we make choices ... some good, some bad ... and not everyone will like those choices (I have taken considerable crap from friends for the Armstrong sheet floor in my kitchen) ... however, what it comes down to is what I like and can afford ... Hopefully we aren't making BAD choices ... just less than perfect ones. There are SOOOO many things we wouldn't do if it were all about architectural purity. (the most popular is the 8000 watts of photo/motion sensitive exterior lighting on so many houses) Like it or not ... people make their own choices this way ... and the way for you to look at this would be that your house will always be worth more (maybe) because you have those great architecturally correct windows. Richard (ROC) --Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.-- --AIM: ROConn | ||
| virgilian Citizen Username: Virgilian Post Number: 160 Registered: 7-2001 |
Richard I disagree with most of what you write. But you do have opinions that many in town must increasingly share, judging from the creeping crud of pvc. Why shouldn't Maplewood houses have the cheapest available windows? Why is a Maplewood house worth keeping distinct from low-income renovation, a trailer home, or new vinyl K. Hovnanian sprawl-piles? | ||
| ASH Citizen Username: Ash Post Number: 86 Registered: 8-2003 |
What about those beautiful old wooden storm windows? Is there any way to replicate them, or find old ones? I agree with virgilian about the beauty of the old windows and am hoping to salvage ours but many aren't in such good shape (rot here and there basically). Is there any one out there who does repair work on these old windows? | ||
| tourne Citizen Username: Tourne Post Number: 287 Registered: 1-2003 |
As I understand it, new windows do not make that big a difference in energy savings. However, any manor of good sealing storm windows does make a big difference. So if your nice looking wood windows are or can be made to work in good order, than buy storm windows instead. You will save some money, as well as energy. The money you save on the windows could be used toward insulation(especially attic) and other house sealing measures that really do make a difference. It may be foolish to spend any money on new windows when the other not so obvious air(heat) leaks in your house, totalled, equal the size of a window with no glass at all! All those little leaks really add up. | ||
| NRL Citizen Username: Nrl Post Number: 430 Registered: 8-2003 |
I have storm windows also. I cant stop the drafts from passing right through these old windows (1938).. I have caulked, weather stripped and foamed and I am still getting drafts. It almost feels like a fan is blowing the air in. Any other recommendations on what to do? | ||
| luv2cruise Citizen Username: Luv2cruise Post Number: 147 Registered: 12-2002 |
My opinion is that virgilian is retarded. There's nothing like being on the ocean! | ||
| Barb Citizen Username: Flannery Post Number: 67 Registered: 8-2002 |
Not that I really want to enter the frey here, but what about interior storm windows: http://www.windotherm.com. I've often thought about them because I hate our aluminum storm windows and want to preserve our original double-hung. It would mean, of course, having the old-time screens full-time, of which I would not be opposed. Just wondered if anyone knew the pros/cons of interior storm windows? They definitely look aesthetically pleasing. | ||
| Richard O'Connor Citizen Username: Roconn Post Number: 78 Registered: 6-2001 |
Sorry... this is not what I meant to happen ... My observation is many people do what they have to do, not necessarily what they'd like to do. Good replacement windows look good ... bad replacement windows don't ... and even the best replacement windows can look really bad if they're not right ... many people may have different ideas about what is 'right' for their home. Yes, keeping our houses architecturally correct is a good thing, but like others, I have done all I could do with my windows and they still leak (except those that now cannot even be opened for having been sealed closed) It's not that I don't like old houses or the architecture (I wouldn't have bought what I bought) but like it or not, we can't all have impeccable taste nor do all of us have the money to support it. . . . Tourne ... the right replacement windows can make a HUGE difference ... I know in my dad's case the savings on a monthly basis are VERY VISABLE in his gas and electric bills .... he also notes that the house is much quieter. (The windows by his utility usage will have paid for themselves around July of '04) (he's literally hundreds of dollars a month lower in Gas and Electric) (and you can't put a price on the new found quiet.) Cheap windows cheaply installed don't make a difference and perhaps this is what all the fuss is about ... a growing number of companies sell a much less than quality product with the promise of savings and then none appears .... Should we all be pristinely correct in how we keep our houses ... well, if that's what you want then a planned community where they control even your paint choices is a better place to be living. Most picked our neighborhoods for either the house we found or what the neighborhood offered. If you really don't like that people sometimes have bad taste and post it conspicuously on the exterior of their investment, then living in a community that does not allow for personal statements is the solution. (Just look at columbia, MD .... the houses all look the same .... and I think on a less than sober night it could be VERY hard to find your own home.) Anyway...I'm not opposed to what has been said regarding the cheap windows...I'm just making the point that most of us do the best we can with what we have ... and it doesn't help when people are attacking us for our choices ... without seeming consideration for what went into them. Anyway...thats the end of my thoughts on it Richard (ROC) --Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.-- --AIM: ROConn | ||
| Barb Citizen Username: Flannery Post Number: 68 Registered: 8-2002 |
This debate is endless and will always be an issue as long as human beings are individuals. Shoot, it took an act of Congress for us to agree on an exterior paint color! Can't wait until we redo the kitchen!  Now, back to my (not so) original thought--any views or experience with interior storm windows? | ||
| virgilian Citizen Username: Virgilian Post Number: 161 Registered: 7-2001 |
While i enjoy any opportunity to feel personally insulted by luv2cruise and would also enjoy defending those in other ways being insulted by the perjorative use of the word "retarded", I'd rather just stress how important it is to a house to have good windows. A house nearby recently had its complex, original wood windows replaced with cheap muntin-less vinyl inexpensive replacement windows by someone hot to turn it over with misguided "upgrades" making it unlovely and unsold for a long while. It now has the character of a new spec house in Livingston, kind of like the ones newly blemishing the newly spoilt wildlands along South Orange Avenue. It is unfortunate, and this sort of degradation of the streetscape could affect property values along the street, so closely associated with the good architecture we have here. Is it a coincidence that people love to live in a town with lovely houses unspoilt by bad taste and relentless marketing by charlatan plastic vendors? Perhaps, tell me so. It is not "retarded" to discuss beauty. Beauty is a quantifiable, objective component of what we have in Maplewood. We pay for it to live here. It costs money. Preserve your beauty and your PROPERTY VALUE as well as MINE. This is not a slum. | ||
| virgilian Citizen Username: Virgilian Post Number: 169 Registered: 7-2001 |
NRL-- are your storm windows aluminum? | ||
| kevin Citizen Username: Kevin Post Number: 159 Registered: 2-2002 |
Virgilian does have a point here but it's not just about windows. Many were attracted to this area because of the charming old homes. A good portion of these old homes have not been renovated in decades and have retained many of the period details which make the homes appealing and the town charming. Modern upgrades are cheaper, more durable and energy efficient - but are created from materials and with processes that did not exist when the homes were built. Some of these products are designed to mimic the look of the original, but admittedly, many are cheap and look out of place on a period house. The bottom line is cost. You would have to pay out the nose to replicate or restore the original details. These items aren't mass produced and are cost prohibitive. I'm all for gentrification - it has to be done or we will lose houses due to condemnation. Once that happens, guess what goes up in their place? Vinyl covered boxes. I would rather have the current housing stock with modern day upgrades over brand new vinyl boxes anyday. I could only imagine what some of the interiors of these homes look like. I think that the interiors sometimes take a lot more abuse from their occupants over the years and require a lot more rehab. I suspect that there is a lot less originality on the interiors and a lot more in the way of creature comforts or very cheap rehab products. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 1955 Registered: 5-2001 |
Barb- The internal system looks very cool & I like that you can purchase ones that open. Please let me know if you find anyone who has personal experience! We vowed to replace windows only with wood, one at a time, but this is a much better option! | ||
| sportsnut Citizen Username: Sportsnut Post Number: 835 Registered: 10-2001 |
Wow, I like my vinyl sided, replacement windowed home. I like the fact that I can turn the windows in to clean them, I like the fact that I can power wash my home and have it clean in a couple of hours and at a fraction of the cost of repainting it every few years. I think my house looks nice just the way it is (that's why we bought it). And judging by the fact that its appreciated roughly 60% since we bought it four years ago I'd say that the market is pretty happy with it too. In addition all of our neighbors homes have appreciated as well and none of them had any problem selling their homes (some of which sold days after being listed). So while I agree that old homes with character look nice I dispute your claims that the vinyl siding and replacement windows push property values down. BTW, they were already there when we bought the house. If you'd like to contribute to the home renovation fund I am gladly accepting. |
