| Author | Message | ||
     joso Citizen Username: Joso Post Number: 151 Registered: 5-2001 |
45 students x 10K./student minus 50K for investigator=net gain 400K. I also expect that the reputation of MSO schools exceeds that of Clifton, so One could expect numbers of proven illegals would be higher. | ||
| joso Citizen Username: Joso Post Number: 152 Registered: 5-2001 |
MSO Announces Student Amnesty Program Illegal students in MSO will be permiited to remain provided they maintain an A+ average and remain free from disciplinary troubles for 4 years. At the conclusion of this period, they will be permitted to apply for an"Orange Card" which will permit them to apply for permanent status as MSO students. The district says that this program is necessary because there are not enough MSO natives willing to study in the entry level classes. Those students not adhering to the contract will be deported to Millburn. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1709 Registered: 1-2003  |
joso, if we find 45 illegal students, they would be 45 out of how many suspected illegals? Would 50K be all it would cost? And please, please remember that while we may be spending $10,000 per year per student, that is NOT the marginal cost of a student. It does not necessarily follow that we could save $400,000 by firing five people at, say, $80,000 per year. You are familiar with the concept of marginal cost, aren't you? I'm dismayed that many aren't, though I won't speak for you. Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| joso Citizen Username: Joso Post Number: 153 Registered: 5-2001 |
Well Tom, I may not be an economist but would you consider it correct to assume that if the max permitted class sizes at an elementary school for example are 22, and one illegal student caused that class size to be exceeed, a new teacher would need to be hired, and that this one student could end up costing the district 50K? I would say that is a big hit, and not marginal. This may be an exageration, but looking at only in a marginal way is a bit...prissy don't you think? | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1710 Registered: 1-2003 |
OK, I'll try to be respectful, but you have just displayed that you are not familiar with the concept of marginal cost. It does not mean insignificant. It refers to the extra cost of adding a student. For example, the cost of running a bus line is proportional to the driver's salary, the cost of the bus, the fuel, the maintenance costs, and a few others. Fuel and maintenance costs rise slightly when the number of passengers increases, but most of the costs, i.e. salary and bus purchase, do not. Therefore, it does not cost the bus company $2 more to run a bus with 31 people than it does to run a bus with 30 people, when the fare is $2. Yes, it's true that one student can necessitate adding a class, but the probability of that is low. Therefore, when we say that it costs $10,000 per student per year, it is not accurate to say that removing 40 illegal students saves the district $400,000 per year. Some of the costs are fixed and are not tied to the number of the students. I am not saying it's OK to have illegal students. I'm speaking of the costs and benefits of doing investigations. Maybe we should and maybe we shouldn't do the investigations. No one on either side has come up with enough numbers to convince me. The argument that it's just plain wrong doesn't do the trick for me. Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| joso Citizen Username: Joso Post Number: 154 Registered: 5-2001 |
We should only be educating the kids who are legally entitled to here. It is that simple. It does the trick for me and I dare say it does for a great many others. Could you not agree that if the perception is that MSO schools are open to all comers (provided they know how to beat the system), the district could be if not overwhelmed, at least sorely TAXED with the resultant influx. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1716 Registered: 1-2003 |
joso, I agree with your principles, but the devil is in the details. It is wrong wrong wrong for outsiders to come and use our schools. The very prospect of it makes me fume with anger. OK, we're clear on that, right? Now let's get down to details. I do not favor spending money on investigation if the cost far exceeds the benefit. It is entirely appropriate to estimate the costs and the benefits. It is relevant to ask these questions. It is utterly irresponsible to ignore them and say we must do the investigation because of how wrong wrong wrong it is to allow freeloaders in our system. If an investigation ends up being fruitful, you and I will be in full agreement. But let's talk dollars and numbers of students. This is not merely a moral issue. Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| NinersMan Citizen Username: Ninersman Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2003 |
Read Michael's simple, straightforward post: the BOE doesn't have the WILL to obtain the facts about "illegals" in the school system. The BOE must first actually want to do this - they don't, there's no mandate, it's too much of a political hot potato. Thus, you can site the cost of the investigation, or theorize about the actual cost of these students, be it marginal cost, variable cost, or fixed costs, or worry or speculate about the cases of illegals versus numbers caught.. But it doesn't matter!! Until REAL change occurs, this topic will return over and over again. If the BOE felt this was a big issue, they would do something about it. But they haven't. Maybe the BOE should state what its biggest worries are, cause this ain't one of 'em! Given that MOL has created a Education folder, which focuses almost exclusively on this, you would think that would translate into more action, or at least reaction, on the part of BOE... | ||
| jfburch Citizen Username: Jfburch Post Number: 1218 Registered: 6-2001 |
That's an oft stated opinion. I suppose Union and Clifford apparently have the will but: a) they haven't eliminated illegal students or created a serious deterrent b) it's not clear that in those towns there are as many illegal students as people think/fear c) costs (monetary and other) and benefits are not clear to me from what I know about those cases So it's not so simple and straightforward. (And it's worth remembering that the district does take ongoing action to identify, investigate, and remove illegal students) | ||
| jfburch Citizen Username: Jfburch Post Number: 1219 Registered: 6-2001 |
Oh, and even $400,000 is about 0.5% of the budget (I think). It's not going to make much of a dent in anyone's property taxes, let alone relieve the ongoing budget pressure we struggle with. | ||
| joso Citizen Username: Joso Post Number: 155 Registered: 5-2001 |
Oh Tom. I really can't imagine you fuming with anger. You're too nice. A bit peeved perhaps, but not fuming. Michael is probably right though. Most on the board consider it a marginal problem at best, and expect that those willing to jump through the hoops to get in are probably decent parents (because they care enough about their kids to make the effort) of decent kids who deserve a better education than they would get in their home schools, so who are we to deny them. So in the words of that great green lady in the harbor.. bring me your poor huddled masses yearning for a better SAT at my expense. } | ||
| joso Citizen Username: Joso Post Number: 156 Registered: 5-2001 |
Now I have to take issue with you jburch. As I recall in the last budget discussions 400K made the difference between 4th grade band and no 4th grade band, or perhaps Explorations and no Explorations, and certainly it would have allowed the district to keep the technical support to maintain the computers. So much of the budget is mandated, that these relatively small amounts make a BIG difference. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1720 Registered: 1-2003 |
Online personas don't always match the real person. In real life, I'm terribly nasty to all who meet me. Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 4290 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have said it before and I will say it again until the out of district student situation (if it is real or an urban legend)is resolved their will be growing dissatisfaction with the tax increases we are forced to pay. Period. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1722 Registered: 1-2003 |
I believe you, bobk. Why do you think the BOE doesn't take this ball and run with it? Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 282 Registered: 9-2003  |
A small piece of news from the front: On the train home, I ended up talking to a lady from another IT department where I work in Jersey City. She is about my age, the equivalent of an admin assistant, married, African American, has 3 kids, one in Tuscan. Lives down near Boyden off Parker. Has lived in Maplewood 16 years. Not college educated; she and her husband probably fit the working class definition economically. ANYWAY, we got talking about schools. She likes Maplewood, but when each of her daughters in succession started in CHS, after about a month -- at great family sacrifice -- she switched them to an area parochial school. Why? Values, like me. She and I have a remarkably broad agreement on issues related to Hip Hop music, ghetto behavior, kids swearing around teachers, not respecting school. Neither of us into promoting brand name sneakers, etc. etc. I said, "so, why did you switch your girls?" Well, in her view, too many ill-behaved kids from Irvington, etc. in the high school, and no one willing to do much about it. Drawing her daughters into bad stuff, wanting to fight her daughter, etc. I said I was actually rather glad to hear this because when I express similar concerns, I come of like a racist. I asked why she thought African American parents, or churches (she was reading the Bible on the train) don't feel they can take a bit of a stand on this. She said she's tired, tired, tired. No one cares. Everyone is interested in pretending the problems don't exist. She suggested that "the money people" don't want the issues out in the open for fear of hurting the town's reputation. Anyway, yeah, one swallow doesn't make a spring and all that. But on a personal level, it was nice to have a pretty honest chat with a mother with similar values, a long time homeowner, who's given up on making a difference here, at least at the high school level. Not a middle/upper middle class African American or White mother who can easily afford private school. Not a monied "Slopie." Someone a lot like me. I make no difference posting in these threads, though sometimes I get lonely and therefor do. I do believe there's some real issues, and "guest students" are part of it, but we will debate using "cost/benefit" terminology until we're blue in the face. But I sure don't think this or any thread is going to get anyone truly willing to fund the research to find the facts. I did want share my little interchange, though. Feel free to think I made it up, or quiz my as to her name or whether it's real or whatever. Do whatever to process it to reinforce your point of view. I just wish to hell we could survey, or get data or something to stop the idiotic philosophical posturing. Too much like the "definition of is is" low in the Clinton time. | ||
| sac Citizen Username: Sac Post Number: 864 Registered: 5-2001 |
Re "We should only be educating the kids who are legally entitled to here. It is that simple. It does the trick for me and I dare say it does for a great many others." It IS NOT that simple ... IF it costs significantly more per illegal student to identify and remove them than to educate them, then I question whether that is the best use of our limited tax dollars. I am not saying that is the case because I simply don't know. But IF it is the case, as seems possible, I would prefer that my taxes be spent toward providing the actual educational services, even if some of the recipients are not legitimate. | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 357 Registered: 6-2003 |
Part of the problem is that we don't seem to have a clear idea of who is legitimate and who is not. What exactly is the precise legal definition of a "legitimate student" anyway? | ||
| jfburch Citizen Username: Jfburch Post Number: 1221 Registered: 6-2001 |
You can look at the BOE Policy Manual section 5111 on the district website. (joso, fair enough, though my point was that such a sum (were it actually to be recoverable) would offer little tax or budget relief, not that it could make no difference at all.) | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 1809 Registered: 5-2001  |
Some may look legal on paper, but they've legally signed away their kids to "relatives" (affidavits) to get the right address. THis stinks and is hard to prove. The other type of illegal is actually legal as far as having to educate them, and that would be people who reside in illegal housing. I think that the current TC is trying to make a dent here by enforcing housing codes. |
