| Author | Message | ||
     papayagirl Citizen Username: Papayagirl Post Number: 142 Registered: 6-2002  |
It's that time again - joy. We're trying to prevent a repeat of an incident we had last year with the hot water pipe in our bathroom faucet freezing. It's in the wall, so there's no way to really wrap it. Last year when it happened, a plumber told us keeping our heat at 62 during the day was the culprit. If we bump it up to 66 or 68 during the day, do you think this would really make a difference? (If not, i'd rather not make my gas bills higher than they already are.) I've heard that leaving the faucet dripping will prevent it, but i've also heard that's a myth. Has anyone found this to make a definitive difference? My own warped logic tells me that running the tap until the water runs hot every now and again will help... could it? | ||
| Rick Beley Citizen Username: Ruck1977 Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2003 |
i have also heard the tip about letting it drip, from our home inspector. I have no proof it works though! | ||
| bill671 Citizen Username: Bill671 Post Number: 19 Registered: 6-2002 |
The few time we DIDN'T leave the fast drip- actually a little bit more than a drip is when we had the problem. Another idea that I'm using with great success is to hang a drop light (like you would use if you were working on your car) on the pipe where it enters the wall. Don't let the bulb or housing touch anything that could overheat. I do this on the coldest days, and that 75 watt bulb warms that pipe up enough to keep things running. Picked up that idea from a friend who has well-water, that kept freezing up in the unheated crawlspace under his house. He hasn't frozen in years. | ||
| wharfrat Citizen Username: Wharfrat Post Number: 911 Registered: 6-2001 |
$30 gets you a pipe warmer at your nearest plumbing supply store. Wrap it around the pipe you want to keep from freezing and plug it in to the nearest recptacle. Electricity to run it runs about $3 a season. | ||
| joy Citizen Username: Joy Post Number: 132 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tried the pipe warmer thing - didn't work. we use the dripping facuet - no problems. | ||
| thegoodsgt Citizen Username: Thegoodsgt Post Number: 342 Registered: 2-2002 |
LET THE WATER DRIP! It worked for us last year. Only problem, the faucet was one of those single-handle jobbies, so I couldn't quite control the cold vs. hot output, so sometimes one or the other line would freeze. Letting the hot water drip ensured that I'd at least have hot water. | ||
| Master Plvmber Citizen Username: Master_plvmber Post Number: 149 Registered: 3-2003  |
My advice is to open the wall and insulate or re-route the pipe. Why leave yourself so vulnerable to a pipe break? What if you're away from home and it gets very cold? I don't mean to be a black cloud here but I've seen some horrible things happen that were very avoidable. It sounds like you know where the trouble spot is. Address it correctly one time and you'll never worry about it again. Master_Plvmber | ||
| NRL Citizen Username: Nrl Post Number: 427 Registered: 8-2003 |
I agree reroute or wrap the pipe instead of praying that something wont happen. One more thing, keeping your heat as low as 62 during the day doesnt save energy. It actually wastes more energy. Imagine how long and hard your boiler or hot air furnace has to work when you want the house to get the temp back up to 68 when you come home. Especially in this weather. Drop to 66-68 when your not home. No less, in my opinion. | ||
| eratosthenes Citizen Username: Eratosthenes Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2003 |
Sorry for the tangent, but on this topic: keeping your heat as low as 62 during the day doesnt save energy. Is this true, or is this an urban myth promulagated by Exxon? I really want to know. Can anyone cite studies to support it? This is after all on a day when global warming is linked to mass extinction (see today's NYT). | ||
| Master Plvmber Citizen Username: Master_plvmber Post Number: 151 Registered: 3-2003 |
The urban myth is that room setback increases efficiency. I think it's promulgated by Home Depot and the manufacturers of thermostats they carry. Master_Plvmber | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2041 Registered: 12-2001  |
Letting your house get cold when you are absent absoutely does save energy. A warmer house radiates heat at a greater rate than a cold house. The boiler will have to operate more often to keep the house warm. For a steam boiler, in particular, there is a certain inefficiency associated with first starting up. Moreover, a boiler does not have to work harder to heat a cold house. It just runs a bit longer. Anybody that tells you that letting your house get cold while you are out is not right. Now, the behavior of your thermostat is another issue entirely. | ||
| eratosthenes Citizen Username: Eratosthenes Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2003 |
Setback is a Good Thing, according to the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), a DOE national laboratory: http://www.eere.energy.gov/erec/factsheets/thermo.html | ||
| algebra2 Citizen Username: Algebra2 Post Number: 1533 Registered: 5-2001  |
I grew up in a house where turning UP the heat was turning it to 62 degrees! I don't keep the house as cool as my parents did but I would never think to leave it on 68 degrees when I am not home. This is a on-going discussion with my wasteful husband who thinks it's ok to leave it on 68 degrees all day just so it's all toasty the minute he walks in the door at night. | ||
| Master Plvmber Citizen Username: Master_plvmber Post Number: 152 Registered: 3-2003 |
I can’t believe I’m doing this again but here goes. After I read Tjohn’s post I called a P.E. (Professional Engineer, mechanical) friend of mine to ask his opinion on room setback. He replied that he sets his programmable thermostat back 4 degrees but feels like it may be too much. It seems his boiler runs an inordinately long fire-cycle at the start of the high temp time period. It then short-cycles (not a good thing) once the air temperature satisfies the thermostat and the heat slowly penetrates his still-cold walls and furniture. On the other hand, he and wife like it cooler at night so they leave it like that. His reply is consistent with what I learned to expect from room setback during my courses at the Institute of Boilers and Radiation, the agency responsible for verifying the ratings label affixed to every single boiler sold in the United States. So I turned to the most recently released Dan Holohan book, “We Got steam Heat” where, on page one hundred and twenty one a paragraph reads: “Steam systems work best when they have basic on-off thermostats…...Thermostats that automatically turn the temperature down at certain times of the day or night (commonly called night setback thermostats) sometimes cause problems with steam systems because they allow the pipes to get too cold too often”. A problem he explains in greater detail elsewhere in the book. I still wasn’t convinced that my friend, the professional engineer, my teachers at IBR, or Dan Holohan had any idea what they were talking about. So I read on to the post by eratosthenes which gave a link to the EERE website where among various other claims I came across this highly enlightening piece of information. Read on: "Thermostats with Automatic Temperature Adjustment To maximize your energy savings without sacrificing comfort, you can install an automatic setback or programmable thermostat. They adjust the temperature setting for you. While you might forget to turn down the heat before you leave for work in the morning, a programmable thermostat won't! By maintaining the highest or lowest required temperatures for four or five hours a day instead of 24 hours, a programmable thermostat can pay for itself in energy saved within four years." So you see, we were wrong after all! Apparently the savings are so bountiful that in only FOUR YEARS you may save so much fuel with room setback that you won’t even miss that money you spent that day at Home Depot on that beautifully button-adorned box on the living room wall. Assuming, of course, that you installed it yourself. Keep in mind that the percentage of homes still using steam heat in this country is somewhere south of 10. This document is probably written assuming the reader heats a house with forced air. Clicking on “related links” in that document we are offered this information: “Forced-air systems have the quickest response times. This makes them a good choice for use with programmable thermostats. Heating-and-cooling programmable thermostats are an excellent choice for homes with air conditioning because they can increase the set point when the home is unoccupied.” I stand by my statement. If you like it cool at certain times, use room setback. If you want to save money on fuel, buy new windows. Master_Plvmber | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2042 Registered: 12-2001 |
Nice post MP. I think that to be economical with steam heat, you have to accept some temperature fluctuations. If you try to maintain too tight of a tempeature range with steam (e.g. on at 67, off at 69), you will waste a lot of money. It seems to me in my house that, on the warm cycle, the steam comes on at 66 and shuts off at 69-70. For the cold cycle, I have very few data points as the house almost never drops below 60 except on the coldest nights. | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 4252 Registered: 5-2001 |
All very facinating stuff. We usually set back our manual thermostat about four degrees at night as much for comfort as for savings and when we turn it back in the morning we have steam in a few minutes. Also, just as an aside, I saw one of Master Plumbers trucks parked on John Street in Manhattan behind South Street Seaport a couple of weeks ago. LOL | ||
| ronzio Citizen Username: Ronzio Post Number: 55 Registered: 7-2002 |
Okay, so the pipes are frozen...now what? I've had hair dryers blowing on the pipes for over an hour now and the water is still not flowing. Sure, I can get a couple drops to come out of the faucet, if I shake it, but no water flow. All of the exposed pipe is warm to the touch now...I suppose if I keep heating the water in the pipe that is below the frozen portion, eventually it will melt through, but is there a better way? Blowtorch? Flamethrower? Napalm? | ||
| parkah Citizen Username: Parkah Post Number: 37 Registered: 1-2003 |
hey ronzio... please make sure to shut off the water to any particular frozen pipe before you try to thaw it out. otherwise you could have water pouring out all over your floor, etc. if the pipe bursts while being re-heated. happen to us last year about this time. not a fun experience. | ||
| ronzio Citizen Username: Ronzio Post Number: 56 Registered: 7-2002 |
Thanks, Parkah. Good advice. I'm all set now. Finally got to Home Depot, bought myself a nice Benzomatic propane powered flame thrower (or torch, but flame thrower sounds so much cooler) and now I'm enjoying the comforts of running water again. | ||
| Richard O'Connor Citizen Username: Roconn Post Number: 76 Registered: 6-2001  |
Thanx for the T-stat info ... (even a little out of thread) As to the insulating thing...I read (or saw) that insulating pipes in outside walls is tricky as the insulation should only be between the pipe and the outside wall in order that heat from the inside can still get to it . . . (This Old House or maybe Handyman Magazine . . . hmmmmm) .... Anyway, the dripping thing is the way to go if your heat is set so low that there is not enough leaking warmth to keep everything thawed. And hey ... THAW CAREFULLY ... or you're going to be swimming in your basements (or maybe ice skating in this weather)  Richard (ROC) --Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the Titanic.-- --AIM: ROConn |
