| Author | Message | ||
     Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1749 Registered: 1-2003  |
http://www.pulsetc.com/article.php?sid=840 Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| mfpark Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 167 Registered: 9-2001 |
Tom: This would be more funny if it were not so true (and it is pretty darned funny). But note that Clinton pushed through NAFTA, not Bush--Bush is just working the benefits. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 702 Registered: 8-2003 |
How come Clinton created 20M jobs with NAFTA in place? | ||
| mfpark Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 169 Registered: 9-2001 |
Hmmm, and Bush lost almost that many jobs with NAFTA in place. The point of the piece is not to satirize NAFTA per se, but to lampoon the whole off-shore outsourcing of white collar jobs. NAFTA did not cause this, but it is part of the whole trend. I still do not know why all those running for President don't rail against the loss of white collar jobs--white collar voting rates are higher than most other voting segments (except the elderly). | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1753 Registered: 1-2003 |
Maybe those candidates don't have much hope of fixing the trend. Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| themp Citizen Username: Themp Post Number: 392 Registered: 12-2001 |
I think about this all the time. What is our goal? Incredibly low wages and low consumer prices? I am not opposed to growth of the economy based on new cheaper labor, but when the economy, during a job shortage like our, is still dependent on millions of illegal immigrants, maybe wages are too low? If I had to buy stock in a country, it would be India. | ||
| gozerbrown Citizen Username: Gozerbrown Post Number: 302 Registered: 3-2002 |
I was laid off twice: in 1993 and in 2000. My husband got laid off nearly 2 years ago. Our jobs layoffs were after all the dot-com excitement of the late 1990's. I think it's simpler to generalize who is to blame for this, but the folding of so many internet companies contributed to the loss of many jobs and so did 9/11. In terms of preventing companies from outsourcing overseas, I agree that something really needs to be done about this. As far as candidates go, maybe they aren't focusing on it because many of the people who could be affected by this don't vote. | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 363 Registered: 6-2003 |
There is no longer anything that can be done about outsourcing. The information economy is global. | ||
| magmasystems Citizen Username: Magmasystems Post Number: 176 Registered: 1-2002 |
There is no longer anything that can be done about outsourcing. The information economy is global. But, where does it stop? First, it was the manufacturing sector. Then, the call centers. Now, it is Information Technology (programmers, database administrators, researchers, project managers, middle managers). Some of the large brokerage companies are outsourcing stock analysis functions (a lot of number crunching), and it will not be long before your stock broker is located overseas (if the financial companies can successfully lobby to have overseas people legally licensed). Now, radiological reports are being handled by Indian doctors. And, 60 Minutes showed an accounting firm (SureTax) that handles US tax returns in India. At the rate we are going, either you can grow up and be a CEO or a milkman. Marc www.millburnweb.com | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 292 Registered: 9-2003  |
I don't keep up broadly, by I know that the IT portion of the monstrous big insurance and financial services company that I work for is now looking at "near shore." Meaning, the Dakotas, the mid west or any part of the US that is less expensive than the metro NY area. Way off-shore presents costs they didn't count on for shorter-term (one year or less) IT projects. Typically, these hidden costs lie with managerial overhead related to time zone and cultural differences. I'm happy to see this as I had thought folks ran rashly to offshore for IT, and from a purely dollars/cents pov, I didn't think that all the costs were captured. I don't think offshore is going away, but I do think, slowly, that companies begin to look more carefully about which parts of which jobs can be outsourced (offshore being an extreme of outsource, which has been going on for awhile). | ||
| magmasystems Citizen Username: Magmasystems Post Number: 177 Registered: 1-2002 |
(I copied this from another thread) One of my favorite web sites, and one of the most popular on the Internet, is www.f*ckedcompany.com. This site, which started off detailing the demise of dotcoms, has turned into a "Smoking Gun" of corporate misbehavior. One item caught my eye yesterday: http://www.internalmemos.com/memos/memodetails.php?memo_id=2063 The funny thing is that Chubb Corporation also runs a well-known computer training school, the Chubb Institute. You probably remember their ads in all of the newspapers and TV. They not only taught you computer skills, but reportedly gave you assistance in finding a job after graduation. Along with Baruch College, it was one of the primary places in the NYC area to go to if you wanted to make a career change into Information Technology. It is now ironic that the same company who offers to train you will probably not even hire you! When will this outsourcing phenomenon end?! Marc www.millburnweb.com | ||
| thegoodsgt Citizen Username: Thegoodsgt Post Number: 359 Registered: 2-2002 |
Outsourcing is popular because overseas labor is cheaper. So that begs two questions: 1. Are those of us in the IT industry overpaid? From what I've seen, we make a lot of money, and although we're very good at what we do, should someone who writes C++ really earn $70-100K per year? Should a product manager earn $100-150K? Most McDonalds restaurant managers earn much less yet have greater responsibility. 2. In the quest for corporate/stockholder profits, how much is enough? Most of expect 15 percent returns on our mutual funds. Is it reasonable to expect any company to provide that kind of return year after year? Look at it this way, if I could invest in your career and reviewed your income over the last 20 years, would I see your salary increasing 10-20 percent every year? Probably not, yet that's what we expect from corporations. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1757 Registered: 1-2003 |
thegoodsgt, I don't follow what you're saying. What do rates of return and rates of increase have to do with the salary levels of IT workers? Also, I think the outsourcing trend extends far beyond IT nowadays. Maybe the best bet is to be a nurse or hair stylist. That work can't be outsourced overseas. Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| court07040 Citizen Username: Court07040 Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2003 |
Very well said, thegoodsgt. Personally, It bothers me how the media portrays outsourcing. Recently I saw an NBC News piece that featured a 20-year call center veteran at AT&T who's job had been "outsourced." He was very bitter towards AT&T and had a strong sense of entitlement regarding his $75K a year job. I felt very little sympathy for him. On the contrary, I thought AT&T had compensated him very well over the years for his service. How long did he expect to get annual pay raises before the company was going to ask for something in return like increased productivity, new skills, etc. Eventually, there is a point of diminishing returns. This is the case for all jobs. | ||
| magmasystems Citizen Username: Magmasystems Post Number: 178 Registered: 1-2002 |
From what I've seen, we make a lot of money, and although we're very good at what we do, should someone who writes C++ really earn $70-100K per year? Should a product manager earn $100-150K? Most McDonalds restaurant managers earn much less yet have greater responsibility. Let's take the example of a brokerage company. Many of the software developers and architects there are fairly well educated, many with advanced degrees that they paid some university to get. Being somewhat of a software person myself, you think of the systems and source code that you write as an artist think of his paintings. Good design and code can be finely crafted, be efficient, be readable, and perform well under stress. All of the operations of a brokerage firm are done through computerized systems. If one line of code fails, then it can bring a system down, which can ruin stock and bond trades, which can cost the firm millions of dollars. Now, is that C++ programmer worth any less than, let's say, the corporate accountant who saves the firm money through knowledge and application of tax laws, or the middle manager whose job it is to push paper around, or the corporate attorney whose job it is to prevent lawsuits (and save the company money) by carefully applying securities law? Now, what happens when the local CPA finds that his long-time practice is dwindling because his clients are going to SureTax to get their taxes done for a fraction of the price? One thing that is common about these professions is the high level of training that a person has had to undergo in order to acquire their skills. Even once these skills have been acquired and applied, the C++ programmer, CPA, and lawyer must continually study to keep abreast of new practices and regulations in their fields. (The C++ programmer might want to learn the latest software methodologies, a new framework, or a new language). | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 576 Registered: 7-2003 |
After being through a few large outsourcing projects the one thing that sticks in my mind is the people that we kept, people with knowledge of multiple systems, and languages, also the people who knew the Business not just how to program. For instance if we were writing software for banks, we would need people with banking skills. The people who stayed were also the people that didn’t just pull the 9-5 everyday ready to run out the door the second that hand reached 5, or the people that tried to take every Friday off in December because they thought they were going to lose a vacation day. I’m not saying that you have to be a slave to the company, but if I look at your review and realize that you didn’t take every single sick day allotted it meant you were worth something. Magma: do people still write in C++? And if you’re describing Code as art, mine is more like modern art, it goes this way and that and is generally confusing to most. | ||
| magmasystems Citizen Username: Magmasystems Post Number: 179 Registered: 1-2002 |
Magma: do people still write in C++? And if you’re describing Code as art, mine is more like modern art, it goes this way and that and is generally confusing to most. There are not that many requirements out there for C++ programmers. The ones that I see involve using some variant of Unix (Solaris, Linux, HP-UX) and are centered mainly in the brokerage firms. Java seemed to have taken hold, especially for the server end of things. Now that IT budgets are starting to come back slowly, I have started to see more and more requests for Microsoft's new .NET framework, using ASP.NEt and C#. I have been consulting for a large company in Northern NJ for the past 5 months doing C#/ASP.NET work. Microsoft's .NET framework is now being looked at as a seriosu contender to J2EE. For my part, people are interested in me not only for my skills in C#/ASP.NET, but because I have 20 years of experience in the industry with a wide variety of applications. I did not know anything about payment systems before I started this project, and now I do. I think that business knowledge can be picked up faster than software development skills. (Sorry everyone for getting technical, but Brett asked) | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 365 Registered: 6-2003 |
In more mature areas of technology, there is a clear difference between planning and execution, e.g. architects versus site laborers, or mechanical engineers versus assembly line workers. This distinction is blurred in information technology, where many "software engineers" are primarily coders with no real business responsibility. In most cases, it is the program managers or system architects that perform the genuine engineering function. As the industry grows to maturity, you can expect the planners to look for execution skills in the lowest cost locations, just as they do in manufacturing. | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 579 Registered: 7-2003 |
Actually I was kind of goofing with you. Our company is a house the SUN built Java, J2EE, Struts all the way, and we’re constantly trying to one up the .NET guys. I just laugh at the thought of a guy competing with C++  Mont: you right Coders are not the same as a guy who has to design the system from the ground up. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 712 Registered: 8-2003 |
Where does it stop. We used to have over 1/3 of this country into farming. Then, the buggy whip manufacturers left, then the telephone operators got fired, then the economy of the entire country collapsed and massive layoffs ensued to the point of six -- yes, ALMOST SIX PERCENT of the country was unemployed.... |
