| Author | Message | ||
     Mayhewdrive Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 688 Registered: 5-2001  |
According to the agenda of the Trustees Meeting for Monday night (Jan 12), there will be a "Discussion of Dugout Design". I assume this is about the proposed dugouts for Meadowlands Park and perhaps the design will finally be shared with the public. I encourage everyone to come out and speak about this very controversial subject in a public forum. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 880 Registered: 4-2002 |
MHD: Actually, at the meeting in December, I shared the designs with any person who wanted to look at them. A few did. The plans are available at village hall and if someone wanted to see them they could have. Sometimes a person has to actually make an effort and not just sit back waiting for the plans to magically appear somewhere. By the way, I hardly think this is controversial. There have been a few vocal persons who have stated they do not want dugouts on a baseball field. The majority of people I have spoken with (via email, phone, in person) have all been in favor. The plans do not show any trees coming down, but actually several new ones being planted behind the dugouts. SHU is picking up 100% of the cost of the dugouts and they do contribute to maintaining the field. | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2003 |
Mark, I strongly disagree with your representation that one "sit back waiting for the plans to magically appear somewhere." I made suggestion in the past that the adminstration use the "Offical" WEB site to communicate to the public. It would have been easy to include this project with the other development projects currently displayed and discussed. | ||
| Mayhewdrive Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 689 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mark, Sorry..I was not trying to imply that the plans were "hidden". Of course they are available in Village Hall. However, that is not very convenient for most people. What I meant is that perhaps the designs will be on display DURING THE MEETING (& on TV) since they will be discussed. I agree with Howard that they should also be posted on the website. I don't think "dugouts on a baseball field" is the whole issue here. There are many questions regarding the cost of maintenance, safety and the impact on the surrounding neighbors. Not to mention giving Seton Hall what they want & neglecting to use it as a negotiating point for them to contribute more to the town. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 882 Registered: 4-2002 |
Howard: This is not a major developpment project. This is an improvement to a baseball field. When the village puts in new playground equipment or makes other improvements to a facility in a park, it is usually discussed at budget meetings (in public) and then at committee meetings to get public input. This is a baseball field with backstops, fences, lights and now it will have dugouts (and most of the little league coaches were in favor of the dugouts). These were discussed in committee meetings (Recreation). The village will use the website to post information about major developments, news, events etc. | ||
| Mayhewdrive Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 690 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mark, thread drift... Since the Village chooses to use the website to boast about the "tax impact" of the "Coming Soon" Supermarket, perhaps the Village should also use the website to explain the "tax cost" to all of us over the past 3 years (and counting) by having the Village own the supermarket property and bonding to pay for it. return to thread.... | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 883 Registered: 4-2002 |
MHD: So far the only issues raised is that the dugouts are "ugly" and that there could be a problem at one point many years in the future with the river and the dugouts. SHU agreed to put trim up on the dugouts making them "less ugly" and to put up trees behind them to obstruct the view. The river issue was explained at the meeting but basically there is no impact and at one point the village might have to act to maintain the integrity of the field (again that does not change because of the dugouts). Some people also felt that only SHU wanted the dugouts. That also was not true. They were desired (for a long time) by many of the little league coaches (and players). SHU is paying 100% of the cost and they do contribute to the maintenance of the field with manpower. This is really a non-issue, that has been turned into an issue by a few residents who would prefer that the baseball fields be turned into open space new trees planted to keep it from being used for athletics (the claim is that we have enough other ballfields). The designs were available at the last meeting. There are always safety issues with any park. The safety issue here is that some are afraid a dugout will become a hangout. However, there are already some teens who hang out by the ballfields and the police already make it part of the regular routine to check the parks. I don't see how not letting SHU pay for dugouts that many residents already would help us get more money from them. This was a win-win situation. | ||
| Howard Levison Citizen Username: Levisonh Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2003 |
The WEB site is a vehicle to communicate to the community! Who makes the decision on what is a "major development"? I would assume that it should include whatever would be of interest to the public. Maybe there should be some public group/committee that provides insight to what should be communicated. | ||
| Dan Shelffo Citizen Username: Openspacer Post Number: 83 Registered: 6-2001 |
In baseball the purpose of dugouts is to protect the players from the fans and not obstruct the fans view of the action. From the size of the dugouts being described I think the players would be protected from unruly fans (although maybe we need cops on horseback for additional crowd control). But the size of these structures and the fact that they will not be dug out from the ground means they will obstruct the view of the game. The idea of planting trees behind the dugouts so that people will not see them will further restrict the fans view of the game. What purpose do they serve other than allowing SHU to compete in woman's softball in the Big East? Is SHU saying that we must accept this gift or they will not partner with SO on SOPAC? What happens when the dugouts become dirty and smelly? Do we want our little leagers to have sit in them then? At that point, they will have no choice. First it was the permenant fence, eliminating the possibility of soccer from that area of the park, then it was the lights, then it was the scoreboard, now it is the dugouts. When is the domed stadium coming? Its little league let the kids have fun. Parents, have you ever gone to the game and watched your kid interact on the bench with other kids or the coach? Put in a dugout and those are memories you will never have. | ||
| CageyD Citizen Username: Cageyd Post Number: 66 Registered: 6-2003 |
Will/can the dug outs be locked at night? As a resident of the area, we already have problems with residents of other towns wandering through our nieghborhood. My garage was broken into by an Orange resident (I know bc they caught him) who lived down the street. In summer we often have loud mouthed teens from Orange wandering the local streets. It seems that these dug outs will be a perfect hang out for these people. When driving by the dug outs, the police will not be able to see if anyone is in there. I doubt that the police will routinely park their cars and wander into the fields to check to see if anyone is in the dugouts. I have found condoms in other SO parks on several occaissions so trust me the police are not - despite their best efforts - able to stop the problems that already occur in our parks. You (the BOT) need to anticipate problems and prevent them, not wait for them to happen and then go back to Seton Hall - hat in hand asking them to fix them. | ||
| Sylad Citizen Username: Sylad Post Number: 142 Registered: 6-2002 |
What if a tax payer wanted to donate dugouts to the town, would there be this much discussion or is everyone upset because this is coming from SHU? I have asked this before and I get on response. As a little league player the only time I played on a field that had dugouts was in the state championship, our regular fields were terrible, full of rocks with broken benches. The fields here are great and I am sure that if you asked the kids they would love to have dugouts. I am sure that there are more important issues that need to be discussed at the BOT meetings. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 886 Registered: 4-2002 |
Sylad: I agree with your last statement. The recreation committee and the baseball teams both discussed the issue. The BOT was following their reccomendation. Dan: There are seats for the fans that are to the side of the dugouts and where most sit now. This will not change the view. The trees to be planted are being put there at the request of some residents who do not want to see the backs of dugouts when there is no game in session. Dugouts also provide protection for the players when there is a thunderstorm. SHU's baseball team was responsible for raising the money and getting it in their budget so yes the donation is contingent on the dugouts. As pointed out before ( and ignored by you I guess), many little league coaches stated they were in favor of the dugouts. In fact, many other towns already have dugouts on the fields used by their little league teams. This was pointed out at the meeting last month. This field was picked as the one to be used with the fence and lights because it does NOT have an impact on the soccer program. Baseball is played eight months a year by the little league program. SHU uses the field less three months. No matter how you slice it, out kids will be using the field more than SHU. I think there will still be interaction between the players, the coaches and the parents/fans. Just go to a field where there are dugouts and you will see that still happens. I think it is great that our little league players get to play on a field with a fence and a scoreboard. I only wish that when I could have had the full experience when I was a kid. Depsite the sarcastic remark about a domed stadium, several towns in NJ and NY now have indoor baseball. If we ever had a proper location to put such a facility I would be in favor of it. However, this is an outdoor field and it will stay that way. CageyD: The dugouts will not be locked at night. As you state, there is already a problem with people hanging out (not only from other towns) and the police do already routinely check the fields. Now they will have to check the dugouts. | ||
| Washashore Citizen Username: Washashore Post Number: 124 Registered: 4-2003 |
Mr. Rosner: You have stated that "This (the dugouts) is really a non-issue that has been turned into an issue by a few residents". Then you proceed to IGNORE and NOT RESPOND TO many of the important questions raised in this thread. Since it is difficult to keep track of ALL of the issues and concerns that the dugouts have raised, I have, for your convenience, scanned the posts, and listed below questions that were raised for which you have NOT provided a response. I, as well as the original posters, would appreciate your response to these questions raised above, left unanswered, and collected below, for your response: Questions Raised But As Yet Not Answered By Mr. Rosner (Or any other BOT): 1. "I don't think 'dugouts on a baseball field' is the whole issue here. There are many questions such as a.)what is the cost of maintenance, (and who will pay it? Wash.) b.)safety (will require additional police surveillance. Who pays? Wash.) c.)the impact on the surrounding neighbors. d. & e.)Not to mention (the impact on S.O. negotiating ability of) giving Seton Hall what they want & neglecting to use it as a negotiating point for them to contribute more to the town. 2. "What purpose do they (the dugouts) serve other than allowing SHU to compete in woman's softball in the Big East? 3. "Is SHU saying that we must accept this gift or they will not partner with SO on SOPAC? 4. "What happens when the dugouts become dirty and smelly? Do we want our little leagers to have sit in them then?" Mr. Rosner, Your response to these questions would be greatly appreciated, as these questions do, indeed, expose the concerns that the dugouts truly raise, for the town, its little leaguers, and its on-going relationship with SHU. Thank you. | ||
| dgm Citizen Username: Dgm Post Number: 162 Registered: 5-2001 |
I watched the discussion last night, and I think the BOT is on the defensive about the field. It was hanged by its own petard by not making the whole process much more high profile in November. The people in this town are very attached to their centerpiece park, and don't really want structures that make this scenic open space look look like a 24/7 recreation complex in a Dallas suburb. Also: 1. The dugouts will be great place for vagrant drug addicts to use or a good place for a bunch of kids looking to drink (even if they are closed at night.) 2.Why doesn't Seton Hall screw up its courage and approach Newark about Ivy Hill Park. The team could walk there. 3. The notion (Mr. Taylor's notion?) that women's softball is going to attract big spending fans to SO is debatable if not laughable. If they could find the field, where would they spend the money? Besides, where would they park? | ||
| Daniel M. Jacobs, PP, AICP Citizen Username: Conrail Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2004 |
Trustee Rosner: I live only a few houses from the dugouts and I don't really understand all of the public concern. When I was a kid, I loved sitting in the dugout to play ball (it is where I spent most of my time!). If the University will pay for it, so much the better. I don't want to be a NIMBY when the ballfield has been in the park for as long as I can remember. It seems like an additional amenity to an existing facility. But maybe you can answer a related question: Why is a private religious institution given permission to use a public tax-supported facility? The Village does not plow the university's campus streets or pay to light its campus. So why is a public resource (a recreational field) being granted to the University for private use? Does the University get priority treatment? Or do they have to apply for a permit like any Village childrens league? That is my only source of concern. . . otherwise, maybe someone can explain what the big deal is . . . | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 4279 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have watched the corner of Meadowlands Park go from an unfenced youth baseball/softball field into a fenced, lighted Division 1 softball field, complete with a public address system and soon to be dugouts. If I lived in the neighborhood I would be angry, very angry. It is one thing to live next to a youth baseball field where the games have to be over by nightfall and another thing to live next to a mini-stadium. Dgm is correct about after hours use of the dugouts. They will be used for drinking, smoking and necking by the fair youth of South Orange and other towns. | ||
| Duncan Citizen Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 1418 Registered: 12-2001  |
should read hoist with his own petard from.. "For 'tis the sport to have the engineer / Hoist with his own petard" -- Shakespeare, Hamlet III iv. sorry..its a play oh so close to my heart "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" Wayne Gretzky | ||
| Dave Ross Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 6106 Registered: 4-1998  |
I'd prefer if the BoT was a bit more concerned with my neighborhood's integrity than Seton Hall softball team's league standing. | ||
| mrosner Citizen Username: Mrosner Post Number: 889 Registered: 4-2002 |
Daniel Jacobs: SHU needs to coordinate their schedule and get permits the same as anyone else who wants to use the field. BobK: The park is meant to be used by all the residents and is not just for people who live in the area. There was a time when there were no tennis courts, no paddle courts, no lights at the tennis courts, no playground next to the pool, no equipment shed, and so on. The village makes improvements over time and as the budget allows. There is already a problem in several park areas with people loitering. The police patrol the parks regularly (much more in the summer than in the winter probably) and they will continue to do so. We can't let a few stop us from making improvements. I heard the same complaints about making improvements to the basketball court and opening up the fence. Dave: I have no idea where the softball team finished in the standings. I do know that over 500 children from S. Orange in the little league program play at that field and that they use the field for eight months vs SHU using the field for only three months. The lights were voted on long before I was on the board, and I stated when they went up, that if they caused a problem we should take them down (move to a different location). Several people have stated that there has not been a problem and I have only received one complaint about the lights since they went up. | ||
| gozerbrown Citizen Username: Gozerbrown Post Number: 291 Registered: 3-2002 |
I agree that the BOT seems very defensive about the dugouts. Those who are not in favor of them have become vocal and spoken out at meetings about them. A member of the BOT last night stated, rather heatedly, "Where are the baseball fans here?" This left a bad taste in my mouth. Such views by the board makes residents like me, who walk through the fields frequently en route to the village, feel like we will get them no matter what the residents say. I guess my general question is: do the residents really have any say in what happens? Will these dugouts be scrapped if the residents don't want them or will they go up anyway? |
