| Author | Message | ||
     ReallyTrying Citizen Username: Reallytrying Post Number: 292 Registered: 1-2003  |
Xavier, if you wouldn't mind saying, what high school was that, and when? Thanks you. | ||
| xavier67 Citizen Username: Xavier67 Post Number: 367 Registered: 6-2002 |
Stuyvesant HS in NYC, during early to mid 80s when Chinatown, and certain areas of Queens and Brooklyn were plagued by Asian street gang violence, an era forever immortalized by hysteric masterpieces as "The Year of the Dragon." | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1357 Registered: 6-2001 |
Rebecca Raines, Even after two or three years, there are some MOL stories that never get straightened out. The sentences being strung together aren't true, and misinformation keeps getting recycled, with some people just ignoring facts that have been clearly demonstrated. Your story about the murder illustrates that Essex County officials may have their own programmatic agendas when dealing with Maplewood issues. As for metal detectors, they were proposed by Marie before and met with strong objections on MOL from some posters who are CHS parents. Outside security cameras seems a discussion worth having with the school administration. One thing I think it is important to consider is the way kids react to how adults treat them. I think if you treat students as suspects, you can actually provoke bad behavior and rebellion from them. If you start out with a bad reputation, what's to lose? Kids live up to the expectations given them. And I'm concerned Maplewood students kids not be looked at as perps, since in these stories, they appear to be the victims. I think we want to create an atmosphere in and around the schools where students know they can turn to adults for help if they feel they need it. | ||
| xavier67 Citizen Username: Xavier67 Post Number: 369 Registered: 6-2002 |
In Marie's defense, she (and others) are doing great service to the community through their involvement in NAG and other pro-active efforts to bring awareness to street gang problems. | ||
| Redheadgirl Citizen Username: Redheadgirl Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2004 |
I can't believe some of your people are actually attacking people like Marie who are TRYING TO DO SOMETHING to make our town safer for us and our children. Xavier: I don't understand the point of your story about your high school. so what? Of course you didn't feel unsafe! You were a teenage boy thinking nothing will ever harm you! Besides, since when how teenagers feel about their safety count? They are not their parents! | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 2838 Registered: 5-2001  |
I think Marie's vigilance is a great service as well. She really cares about the community and the schools and I think she is remaining calm and professional about this as well. And Lumpy's right, there are lots of stuff going on that is not reported, Marie is on the right track as far as being proactive. | ||
| lumpynose Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 787 Registered: 3-2002  |
Are gangs the same now as they were in the mid 80's??? | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 4928 Registered: 5-2001 |
Xavier brings up a good point, although I am still working my way through Stuyvesant as a gang infected school.  There are gangs and there are gangs. I think most people here are talking about Crips and Bloods and similar criminal gangs. There are "hangout" gangs, usually based on ethnicity, at Columbia. They are capable of doing a little West Side Story rumbling amongst themselves. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1359 Registered: 6-2001 |
N.A.G. is a group that formed on its own that Marie only found out about later. Anybody can go to it and I and others are encouraging people to do so rather than rely on Marie for information about gangs. Kudos to Marie for her willingness to be involved in community issues and politics but there has to be some accountability. Some of the things she's done and said have created false alarms and needless confusion. You may notice that when people contradict her, she and her friends come out swinging with insults at everyone in sight. I always object when people yell in capital letters we have TO DO SOMETHING. No, we have to do the appropriate thing. First we have to determine what the problem is. We don't just circulate rumors we got over the telephone from unnamed people. Marie's information and ideas are half-baked. Of course she's entitled to think out loud about her ideas on MOL and invite discussion, but I don't think she's entitled to circulate rumors, make videotapes of students and or smear everyone who responsibly disagrees with her as a dangerous obstacle to the betterment of Maplewood. It's so over the top of course she's going to be criticized by any number of people who care just as much as she does about working together to protect students. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 2840 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have to disagree about her info being half-baked rumors. I have been told a lot of the same stuff she's heard (and worse) by officers who I've been childhood friends with. I think she's doing a lot more about it than this horrorshack guy. | ||
| michael Citizen Username: Michael Post Number: 503 Registered: 1-2002 |
You are precious. Insults, twisting the facts, and personal attacks are your only response. Weak, really weak. Tell us again ? Who the hell are you ? | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1360 Registered: 6-2001 |
Trying to intimidate me, Micheal? What do you want? My name? My address? Phone number? What I do for a living? Why don't you just ask Marie if you're so curious. She used to post online that she knew all about me, most chiefly that I was a member of CCR. (Ooooo, another gang.) It wasn't true one bit, but she was dead certain she was right and had to be told twice before she stopped repeating it. Anyway, she *thinks* she knows exactly who I am. That's the problem. Marie talks as if she knows who she's talking about and what she's talking about. But she doesn't hesitate to jump to conclusions. In fact, I think Marie comes to her conclusions first, and then looks for "facts" that fit. She's conspiracy-minded (and not just about gangs) and almost eager to put other people in a bad light, especially when they question what she's doing. Marie never once mentions in her letter that while she was demanding the time of the School Superintendent to address her suspicions, he was trying to pull together his presentation of the annual school budget. I know people have many other complaints with Horoshak and I'm not denying the legitimacy of any of those complaints, but everybody knows the Super is put under intense pressure to deliver that info as early as possible. In light of those circumstances, and given the low level of actual gang threat here and the programs already in place, I don't find his behavior unreasonable at all. He did meet with Marie and listern to her concerns, even about a problem that didn't happen on school grounds or during school hours. He quite responsibly said he would talk to the police chief, and he did. I know Marie thinks everybody should drop everything every time she rings the tocsins and is feeling fearful ("time is running out" -- ??) but that's unreasonable. I don't know what happened when the chief and the Super conferred, but the request that Marie put her ideas in writing before colonizing the time of many more people on this issue is not only reasonable, it sounds exactly like what a professional educator suggests to somebody whose ideas are all over the map. I hope Marie will be honest enough to include in her response to the Super that she has formed a gang fo videotapers to film CHS students, and she intends to give her film of the students to the TC and the BOE without permission of the students or parents. Unless of course she's had second thoughts and dropped the idea. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1361 Registered: 6-2001 |
I just wanted to add Michael that you know I've publicly agreed with you and Marie on issues where I thought you were right. But I think Marie's post and this idea of videotaping students are unhelpful and ill-considered. | ||
| ReallyTrying Citizen Username: Reallytrying Post Number: 296 Registered: 1-2003 |
Boy, that's for sure. | ||
| michael Citizen Username: Michael Post Number: 504 Registered: 1-2002 |
Why would you be intimidated by giving us your name ? It certainly is not my intention to intimidate you. | ||
| marie Citizen Username: Marie Post Number: 977 Registered: 6-2001 |
Harpo, You're right. I do have ulterior motives. I'd like to live in as safe a neighborhood AS POSSIBLE and to send my kids off safe schools where they won't worry about whether or not they are going to be "in the wrong place at the wrong time" when gang members from Newark, Irvington, Orange, East Orange, Elizabeth, and or Union decide to show up at CHS, to fight rival gang members and or gang "wannabes." Of which, by the way, according to experts on our Police Force are actually in more danger than "real" gang members. I asked the Superintendent to give MMS permission to present an educational forum on gangs and gagn encroachment for parents and students. His response was: "I'm not interested in taking part in this discussion." You're also right about information I forgot to "mention." Namely, the following facts: Dr. Horoschak denied knowledge about the meeting and or who organized the meeting, when Chris Harrison the principal of MMS ,brought the subject up at an unrelated meeting at Academy Street. This was approximately ten days before our scheduled meeting was to take place. Three weeks AFTER it had been scheduled. Dr. Horoschak had full prior knowledge about the meeting and why it was requested. I asked the Superintendent to grant our MPD and Principal permission to work with the Peace Officers at MMS and to presnet an educational forum for district parents on gangs and gang encroachment. I think that's pretty clear. I followed all of the correct channels, spending four months trying to organize it. I hardly expected the Superintendent to "drop everything" and immediately answer my questions. I'm sure he was in a budget crunch, but that's another story. I have been told, point blank, by gang experts who will remain anonymous, to "keep the pressure on" regarding gangs in SOMA because the present response the the GROWING problem isn't adequate in its scope and nature. Who are your sources? What exactly have they told you? Who can I speak with to confirm the validity of your information and reports? You see Harpo, even if there is only ONE "gang wannabe" at CHS, if five, or ten or fifty gang members from PYT show up at CHS to fight, that's a whole lot of gang members at CHS. As far as videotaping students walking in and out of CHS goes, that was never our intent. We will be vigiliant and keep video cameras "handy" so that when the kind of incident that occured several weeks ago, occurs again, we will have proof to present to our public officials, BOE and Superintendent. Random acts of violence get caught on tape all the time. BTW, I'm confident the Superintendent will meet with us and empower the Peace Officers to go ahead and organize an educational forum for parents at MMS. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1362 Registered: 6-2001 |
Marie, If you don't realize that all of us want as safe a neighborhood AS POSSIBLE for your kids where they don't worry about anything other than their studies and if their hair looks OK you really don't understand this town. When have known gang members from Newark, Irvington, Orange, East Orange, Elizabeth, and or Union decided to show up at CHS? Dates, please. What are the names of these gangs? Not the names of what gangs might be active in Essex or Union. The names of the gangs you know for a fact showed up on what dates and did what at which M/SO schools. All gangs have names. Most people at first get the impression you must be talking about Crips and Bloods, or some other well-established criminal gang. How are these gangs directly tied to any of the assaults you mentioned in your post? It's basic information. The Superintendent's response to you was NOT "I'm not interested in taking part in this discussion." His response to you was to ask you for more specific information. Every time you are asked for specifics, you start yelling nobody cares but you and we'll all be sorry. No, Marie, we'd just see no need to toss around inflammatory accusations. It looks like you find it inconceivable that people might forget your name, that they ever met you or that they had scheduled a meeting with you. I'm not here to defend the Super, and he may be avoiding you for all I know, but you seem to think you've made a prima facie case for official malfeasance, but absent MORE INFORMATION I just see a busy guy with priorities. If you are going to keep your "gang experts" anonymous, then obviously none of us can verify what you say, can we? I have to say that I don't find it very encouraging to think of "gang experts" cowering behind anonymity and a woman to address GROWING gang issues in my town. If they're afraid of us, hard to believe your "gang experts" are going to be very effective against the superscary hordes of ruthless criminals eager to descend on us from North, South, East and West. Hope they can face down the second graders. Somehow, it's not surprising after we've told you repeatedly that the police and schools haven't found any actual gang members in the schools but only wannabees, that your secret gang experts say the REAL problem and the WORSE problem is those gang wannabes after all. Oh? My sources are the same police sources as all those mentioned here by other posters, including the chief of police chief. I've also gotten my information informally from TC members, past and present. I've learned that the anxiety about "gangs" in the schools outpaces the reality, although it is very important to direct the anxiety to informed vigilance. None of them is interested in vigilantism, however, and they believe the police are the most effective agents for leading gang prevention, working in coordination with the schools and the parents. I'm sure all of them are happy to talk to you. As far as videotaping students: If you see a crime you should report it to the police. If you have videotapes of a crime, you should give those videotapes to the police. Isn't that obvious? Those are the people who enforce the law in this town. To give them to the BOE and the TC as purported "proof" of anything is only proof of your political agenda. You lose all your credibility that your first interest is safety and crime prevention. I hope the BOE and the TC give your tapes to the police without even looking at them. The police can decide if they are evidence. In answer to your last paragraph: Well, yes, Marie, I'm confident to that the Superintendent will meet with you and "empower" the Peace Officers to go ahead and organize an educational forum for parents at MMS. I knew that the minute I read your post. So what's the friggin' five-alarm hand-wringing about (should you move to Westfield? I don't know) and the attempt to put this guy's head on a pike? Not all that long ago you breathlessly raced to the MOL boards to tell all of us there was a gun at the school and NOW would we all wake up and believe you? The worst had come up us and we MUST have metal detectors! The gangs were already here and recruiting like crazy and lord knows the blood of any child would be on the heads of the "let's ask some questions first" crowd who don't have the privilege of your secret sources but still refuses to believe you --- and yada yada. There was all the usual confusion about whether the gun story was even true. That MOL thread went on for about 50 posts before Joancrystal wandered by to post something to the effect that a gun at CHS wasn't news: some kid had brought a gun in the schools in the 1970s. He was expeelled. No metal detectors were installed. I never heard of subsequent gunfights at CHS through the 80s and 90s. What I'm saying is that for over two years it seems now (it feels like forever), this must be the third or fourth time I've seen threads started by you claiming that some incident is proof-positive that gangs are a GROWING problem at the schools and unless we all jump up and down and scream we agree with YOU, they'll be drive by shootings for sure. Every fight that involves more than more than a few boys is suddenly a "suspected gang fight" according to your posts and your unnamed sources, while information from every other poster says you have significant details of the story wrong every time. We never hear the name of any gang responsible. So by the fifth such post, one finds oneself not only disbelieving, but annoyed as all hell to be constantly redirecting traffic to where new arrivals can get reliable information. I hope by now people realize if they feel they need more information about gangs -- and they are active in Essex County -- they should start by asking questions at the police station or contact N.A.G. One of the greatest and most precious virtues of living in a smallish town like this one is that you can talk to those in government yourself. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1363 Registered: 6-2001 |
apologies to all for the length of that post. I'm done with this back and forth and Marie's versions of things. | ||
| just me fromsouthorange Citizen Username: Jmfromsorange Post Number: 173 Registered: 7-2003 |
lumpy- my mistake, you're right it was kent place. it's another all girls school not far from oak knoll. sorry. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 2349 Registered: 1-2003  |
Let's cut Marie a little slack here. Approximate dates of the incidents she cites would be almost as good as precise dates. Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing |
