| Author | Message | ||
     marie Citizen Username: Marie Post Number: 978 Registered: 6-2001 |
Oh I see. "We" don't understand WHAT KIND of town Maplewood/SO is - Please enlighten us ignorant citizens. I do understand that your cheerleader, only good things happen here, be part of the solution instead of the problem, deny reality at all costs mentality is what's going to get someone killed in a gang related crime and chances are it's going to happen in and or around one of our schools. I understand that will be a really sad day for all of SOMA and something the CCR and NYT won't be able to spin their way out of. Talk to officers and detectives off the record about gangs in SOMA and ask them what they feel our TC and Schools could and should be doing to combat the problem. | ||
| lumpynose Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 789 Registered: 3-2002  |
When you live in a castle up on the hill and don't have any children in the school district, you might have a skewed sense of what's going on, but you sure can pontificate about it.  | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 473 Registered: 9-2003  |
Amen... | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 2350 Registered: 1-2003  |
Marie and others, Some of us want to know the truth and ask for clarification. Sometimes we doubt your reports or the way you bring them to us. None of this means we are cavalier about our kids' safety. Claiming that you are overstating the problem, which you might or might not be doing, is not the same as claiming that there is no problem. We can't address a problem if we don't know what the problem is. I favor dealing with problems of violence, organized and unorganized, not denying that they exist. Reading the reports of kids blocking traffic on Academy street, kids littering the area around CHS, and other things like that can be dismaying. I gather that there are indeed discipline problems. I acknowledge that these can be a sign of, or lead to, other, greater problems. But I say they CAN BE. I am not convinced that the fear matches the situation. The existence of NAG may be a good thing. Harpo is a bit cruel to you, but she has some points which you ought to address, with as little ego as possible, if you can manage that. Answering the questions she asks are essential to your credibility. They can also help to advance the cause of safety. Your most recent response, Marie, seems like so much partisanism. We in the middle of the issue are left to decide on the basis of the character of the participants rather than the arguments themselves. That's not a very happy choice, Marie. I grew up in Manhattan. I was mugged a few times and hit. I was threatened other times. It was horrible, even though I was never even injured. Having been through that, you can believe that I do not take violence lightly. But please don't bend over backwards to misinterpret others here. If one of us calls you on what you claim, it does not at all follow that we believe that everything is just rosy in Mapleberry. Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| Nohero Citizen Username: Nohero Post Number: 3021 Registered: 10-1999  |
I live within walking distance of Columbia High School, which my children attend. I've been to the high school during the day, where I've had to sign in with the guard at the front door, and where I've seen the security cameras in the halls. I've attended meetings, such as the N.A.G. meetings, where local officials have explained that they are being pro-active to prevent gang encroachment into our towns. Also at such meetings, police officers such as Detective Morrison (who is assigned to Columbia High School) have discussed their role in maintaining safety at Columbia. At the same time, over the years I have been reading posts where people describe incidents (or how a teen is dressed), and then declare that this is gang-related. People who suggest a different conclusion are usually attacked, and told that they have "rose colored glasses", or have to "open their eyes". I believe that the community's eyes are open, and that the community is vigilant about this issue. And, I think we are not at the point where, as stated in the first post in this thread, we have to say "Is the correct response a move to Westfield, or private schools for your children?" | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1364 Registered: 6-2001 |
Marie, A student was beaten up at CHS recently. You have insinuated publicly that this student is a gang member, a gang wannabe or involved in gangs in some way. What is your evidence for making this assertion? Perhaps you didn't mean to, but it looks like you are beating up the victim twice. Now do you see the problem? I didn't mean "you" in the plural didn't understand this town. I said if you, Marie, thought you were an army of one in your concerns about your child's safety, you don't understand the town. Most people here, whether they have children in the public schools or not, are committted to safe schools for Marie's children and all children. Both you and cynicalgirl have asked aloud: Do people care? We do and so does most of Maplewood. If you think that's pontificating, what I can do. Surely the biggest self-aggrandizement to be seen on MOL is the claque of rightwing regulars who manage to convince themselves daily that they are doing something "brave" by bellowing their every doom and gloom scenario about the town, day in and day out. Sadly, the rest of your post is garbage and doesn't deserve a reply. But I think you should answer the questions I posed before being so loose with more accusations. Your failure to answer is sort of conspicuous. Some names of gangs active in the schools? Connect the dots please. I think most of us who read these boards have gotten a very good sense that there are members in the police department who like to talk off the record and anonymously for their own political purposes. Until those officers are willing to put the safety of the town before their political agenda, sensible people are not going to find citing "the officers I talk to off the record" persuasive. You say the gang situation is more urgent than I comprehend and in need of courageous confrontation? Let these officers come out into the daylight and state their names and tell us what more needs to be done. I'm all ears. In the meantime, how about some hard evidence to back up your assertions that students who've been victims of beatings have ties to known gangs or the perps do? | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1365 Registered: 6-2001 |
PS: I just read Tom Reingold's post. I'm sorry, Marie, if my scathing language has felt personally cruel. I think every mother shares a fierce concern for the safety of her children and I see nothing wrong with yours. I think what your rhetoric on this issue so often fails to convey is that you understand that parents of black children have an additional set of concerns white parents do not. Those concerns are about the dangers to their children of vigiliantism, racist policing, false accusations and mistaken identity. The concern about gangs is bi-racial in this town. Parents of black children and parents of white children share the concern in equal measure. All efforts to inform all parents of how distinguish between the usual confusing signals adolescents send and the signals that ought to alert them to gang involvement is of course an effort that helps everybody. Language -- even innocently intended language -- that strengthens erroneous perceptions that young black males pose special dangers creates a poor environment for young black students here in Maplewood. All talk of race is subject to misinterpretation so let me be plain: I am not calling you a racist, Marie. I am asking you to take more care in nailing down your evidence before using langauge that might inflame people's baseless anxieties about black youths in general. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1366 Registered: 6-2001 |
Lumpy, Hey, thanks for the compliment about the "castle"! It's been Rutgers, Barbara Stern and Tyce Palmaffy who transformed the outside at least from the Bates Motel.  . | ||
| lumpynose Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 792 Registered: 3-2002 |
Harp- When did Marie ever say they were black youths? Gangs are bad, regardless of color and if you can't talk about it then it's a PC shame. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1367 Registered: 6-2001 |
Lump, You're right. But gangs don't agree with you. They fight on the basis of race (and ethnicity). That's a huge part of what gang identification is and a huge part of many people's anxieties about gangs. And you and Marie also have to realize that not everyone is as unbiased as you two. Marie, Gangs are bad, regardless of color or ethnicity, but too often the local talk of gangs in our schools carries with it a heavy presumption that the talk is code for black gangs exclusively, even when that's not said outright. You could be clearer by simply identifying the names of the gangs you are worried about and their connection to our schools. If you aren't talking about gangs other than black gangs (like the Asian gangs rumored to be in Livingston), why not say so? What's the name of the gang suspected of being involved in the assault in September in Memorial Park? The name of the one you suspect was involved in the recent assault in front of CHS? What about the second grader who was drawing gang signs? Surely that's an easy gang to identify. Whose gang sings were they? Also, if you do arrange a parent's night to discuss gang encroachment at MMS, will you be bringing officers willing to speak off the record or only those speaking officially? You and your supporters have created an impression that it's worthless to listen to police willing to talk publicly on the subject of gangs. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1368 Registered: 6-2001 |
I don't want to seem like I'm just picking on Marie here. Lumpy, Mem? Can you provide the answers? Both of you say you have police sources who speak to you about gangs or confirm what Marie says. What are the names of these gangs (or is it just one gang) and what's the connection to M/SO schools other than geography? | ||
| just me fromsouthorange Citizen Username: Jmfromsorange Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2003 |
nohero- we aren't moving to westfield, but my sister refuses ti send her kids to the schools here. we send them to private school. | ||
| lumpynose Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 794 Registered: 3-2002 |
Harp- Police sources talk to me about crime, not gangs. The kind of crime that is not reported in the paper. The crime that you don't know about so it gives you a false sense of security. If there is a group called NAG, then I believe there are gangs. Wannabees or not. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 2378 Registered: 1-2003 |
How do you figure? If I formed a group called Neighbors Against Clinton, would that mean that the Clintons must live in town? How about neighbors against wolves or elephants? There are thousands of fears for sale and even more buyers. None of what I say means I feel we have no crime problems. I'm just speaking about the logic of your conclusion. Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing | ||
| lumpynose Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 795 Registered: 3-2002 |
Tom- Get that rag off your head and use it. It is a formal group that formed because of gang activity and the police are involved in it. Some Maplewood homes are right near the Irvington border and there ARE gangs in Irvington. Deal with it. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1369 Registered: 6-2001 |
lumpy, Tom's got it right. Evidence of concern is not evidence of gang activity in the schools or even in Maplewood. It could be evidence of rumor mongering and whipping up fears about a subject bound to cause people to become concerned. This isn't Irvington. In fact, my recollection is that the first N.A.G. meeting, the police told the much larger-than-expected audience just that, and said Maplewood was unlikely to ever experience gang problems to the extent Irvington did, partly because residents were so willing to ask questions and work with the police. Under the circumstances, to whip up the fear of gangs with the-sky-is-falling language and then tell people they can't trust what they hear from the police department strikes me as irresponsible. I'm aware of the many risks of living in, shopping in and driving in Maplewood. And like Donald Rumsfeld, I also know there are things I don't know. I just don't live in fear. Not living in fear doesn't mean having a false sense of security. By the way, I'm certain if I talked socially with police in Westfield, I'd hear the same stories you hear from cops in Maplewood. All cops see the underside of their towns, however appealing the surface. However frightened people are about gangs, just because a M/SO student is known to be the victim of an assault, it's not fair to the student to publicly imply that he is a gang member or gang wannabe. And it's worse than nonsense to suggest that unless we buy automatically Marie's interpretation without question that "mentality" will lead to a gang-related murder in town, and probably at a school. Marie apparently sees no risk in her "mentality" to other people or the town. I do. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1370 Registered: 6-2001 |
Tom, Just don't form "Neighbors Against Bears." There are people who'll believe you! | ||
| lumpynose Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 797 Registered: 3-2002 |
I guess I would rather have an officer respond on line to the gang existance or non-existance. Doesn't matter much what you and I think. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 2852 Registered: 5-2001  |
I am not afraid of gangs, whether we have them or not. Big picture: I think what Marie is doing is proactive. It's preventive measures like hers, without which we could very well put blinders on and end up getting bit in our fat *sses if gangs are around or do come into existence here. So, no big whoop, I think she's doing a good thing. She wants what's best for her kids and the town they are growing up in. | ||
| Tom Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 2382 Registered: 1-2003 |
Still, thanks for the clarification, lumpyhead. I guess I have to say it often: there is crime, and we should do what we can do reasonably to keep all crime, gang related and unrelated, out of our towns. Tom Reingold the prissy-pants There is nothing |
