| Author | Message | ||
     xavier67 Citizen Username: Xavier67 Post Number: 310 Registered: 6-2002 |
"Just because you think that it is acceptable behavior to be disrespectful by cursing like a sailor doesn't mean that the rest of us have to." Agreed. But I never said the kids' behavior was "acceptable." "It wasn't like that before you moved here. If fact, not until recently. Let's stop it before it turns into "stuy". " That's a good one, Lumps. How much would you pay me to move out of town and back to "stuy"? | ||
| mem aka "toots" Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 2331 Registered: 5-2001  |
Interesting point - Recently I was driving down Ridgewood, and a group of white kids drove past me and called me a "slut". I was shocked, and then I thought it was hilarious - these kids were laughing and joking around with no idea who I was (and they couldn't see what I was wearing  ). The black kids were not joking, they were ANGRY and on the verge of violence. Damage can be done in both circumstances, but anger and violence are a lot more serious. To me, that's a big difference. | ||
| speedie99 Citizen Username: Speedie99 Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2003 |
Tom - Since I was the one who posted about the library, I'll respond. I am far from criticizing the fact that 'kids are in the library after school'. I think it is admirable that your child calls you and asks to go to the library every day. I would encourage any kid who wants to spend ligitimate time at the library, kudos to you for supporting that behavior. I am NOT suggesting that all kids need supervison all the time. Responsible kids should absolutely have the opportunity to engage in unsupervised activities. Usually, that happens once you have proven your ability to behave properly, by being respectful and making good decisions. I am concerned about the kids that are there because they have no place else to go and treat it as if it were their living room. These kids are not quietly doing their homework, or engaging in recreational reading. They are there every day, for several hours, until someone comes home. Your child is exercising a choice, the kids I see just seem to be left to their own devices as a matter of necessity. I am bothered by the implied assumption that someone will be looking after them. I've watched the librarians do their best to strike a balance between providing a welcoming environment and enforcing the rules, but 'childcare' shouldn't be part of their job description. I apologize for the drift, but it was my gut response to Cynicalgirl's question of 'where are the parents?' The library scenario was just an illustration of my point. | ||
| Tom Reingold the prissy-pants Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1190 Registered: 1-2003  |
It sure is a big difference, and your stories of threats sound much more menacing than cynicalgirl's story, and that's not to downplay hers. Tom Reingold There is nothing | ||
| jfburch Citizen Username: Jfburch Post Number: 1109 Registered: 6-2001 |
Kids are acting out, why do you assume the parents taught them to? Or don't teach them not to? FWIW, I've had more than a few cases of kids blocking my way in the street and typically I stop and wait a minute. If that doesn't work I tap my horn lightly. A couple of times I've had to escalate all the way to opening my window and try reverse psychology--encouraging them to get on the sidewalk where it's safer. They move like sheep--slowly but dociley. I've done similar with kids leaning on my car--also in front of the library, though in the afternoon. They get the message. Getting hostile, demanding respect, or picking a fight, sends a completely different one. | ||
| sportsnut Citizen Username: Sportsnut Post Number: 756 Registered: 10-2001 |
I don't think anyone is demanding respect. They are expecting it. If they are acting out why are you assuming that their parents have taught them better? Some get the message some don't. That is not the point the point is they shouldn't be doing it in the first place. | ||
| spw784 Citizen Username: Spw784 Post Number: 408 Registered: 5-2001 |
>I have never understood why the middle school could not provide library hours for the many kids who >apparently use the library for afterschool care. Their behavior might improve. And who would staff this? They've already cut the media aides (who took care of much of the non-teaching aspects of keeping the libraries running). The librarians have enough trouble keeping the library open all day (during the school day). They have to close the library so they can eat lunch, because the reduction in library staff does not provided for coverage this year. | ||
| marie Citizen Username: Marie Post Number: 913 Registered: 6-2001 |
I arrived about 20 minutes into the meeting and missed the introduction, but was there for Officer Cross, Sargeant Rivera (from the Irvington Gang Task Force) and Chief Cimino's presentations. Chief Cimino commented that in his 20 plus years of duty in Maplewood he had never seen such a large number of residents show up for a community event. I estimate there were between 300 - 400 people in the auditorium. Officer Cross presented information on gang "culture" and gave examples of specific signs to be on the alert for ; clothing - large white t-shirts often layered so that a gang member whose shirt has been dirtied or ied can "peel" off that shirt to avoid being detected. He showed a video of a very complicated and intricate sign language that gang members will use to identify themselves to each other, played lyrics from rap artists who are known gang members and also had examples of identifying grafitti. A board mounted with "homies" small plastic figurines of gang members sold in local grocery was passed around to the audience to further the point about how our children are inundated with gang culture without us even being aware of it's presence. He kept reinforcing the importnace of the community working with the police in helping to keep gang activity in Maplewood from proliferating - If someone sees something that looks suspicious, it should be reported to the police. Officer Cross assured residents that the MPD will "be there" to combat gang infiltration. The community needs to be the eyes and ears of the MPD in this fight. Sargeant Rivera tried to allay fears by stating that "Maplewood isn't Irivington" - he compared the differences between the two towns and repeated Officer Cross's message that Maplewood won't become Irvington because we are a community that won't allow itself to be overtaken and that community involvment is absolutely key in preventing gang and infiltration. Chief Cimino answered questions that related to "high" crime areas in Maplewood, the MPD's role in our schools, the eight criteria for identifying true gang activity, how we can help the police to help us etc. NAG encouraged folks to sign up for block watches and to volunteer to help in the formation of open basktball nights and other activites to help keep kids off the streets and out of trouble. Overall, it was an extremely enlighting evening and I highly encourage everyone to attend the next meeting where Ron Holvey from the State correctional division and an inmate incarcerated for gang acitivity, will talk on the subject. | ||
| marie Citizen Username: Marie Post Number: 914 Registered: 6-2001 |
posted under wrong thread - sorry | ||
| bklyntonj Citizen Username: Bklyntonj Post Number: 159 Registered: 7-2003 |
Cynicalgirl, we have disagreed in the past but this time I agree with you 100%! The behavior of some of our children is not becoming of our environment. My daughter goes to SOMS and she told me what was being said about the incidences after the game. She even said its known that this rivalry between MMS & SOMS carries over into Columbia and many from the two schools won't even speak to each other through their entire time in Columbia. There were kids who went to that game with one intention, to fight kids from the opposing school. I also agree with Mem, the behavior that goes when school lets out at CHS is ridiculous! I'm sick and tired of these renegade, wannabe suburban, spoiled-brat black kids claiming the "thug life". Have any of them ever even lived in the real streets? If so, I'm sure they were not these "hard" characters they claim to be in Maplewood. Its sad but true, there's nothing most suburban black kids admire more than "the streets and its negative image". Your parents knock themselves out to get their kids to a better quality of life and that mentality still comes along with them? Please. My daughter even told me some parents had the nerve to join in the fisticuffs. Are you kidding me? What's going on? This is not Bed-Stuy, Brownsville, the South Bronx, Newark, East Orange or Irvington. Police force, if you want to straighten these kids out, when they're acting unruly, pick them up and take them home. If they won't give you a correct address, take them to the precinct and make them call their parents to pick them up. If that doesn't straighten them out after a few times, then you know what the real problem is and you need to handle them accordingly. | ||
| Duncan Citizen Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 1198 Registered: 12-2001  |
Guys.. its called a rivalry. It happens at every level of sport. Red Sox v. Yankees Michigan v. Ohio State And you are kidding yourself if you think that these kids dont watch their parents shout Red Sox Suck at the TV. or what have you. And as for the "sole intention of starting a fight" well sure. They are teenagers. As is the person reporting these statements. Hyperbole abounds in adolescent bodies and minds. I grew up in a nice suburban town and we hated the kids from Needham. Used to drive over to egg their houses and let the air out of their tires. Hang out in their town center and cause trouble only to run to an known rivals house so the cops would think it was him causing the trouble. It is unrealistic to expect kids today to behave any differently. It is as much to do with our growing up and out of that behaviour as it is their growing into it. Look at their role models and see what happens. It is awful that a little league baseball player would stand at home plate and call his shot. But it happens cause he wants to be like Barry Bonds and end up on Sportscenter. The arrogance we see in the kids is not entirely their fault... it is the fault of the parents and the culture. Now as for the threatening behaviour and all, we I am in complete agreement that that is unacceptable. And I am not blind to the very real problems of living in a real "urban suburban" area. But that fact alone seems to inform the debate here. This kind of stuff happens else where in rural towns with heated rivalries. We just have the very real spector of gang movement in and around town to ratchet up the rhetoric. "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" Wayne Gretzky | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 192 Registered: 9-2003  |
bklntoni, thank you. I admit to being overheated when I originally posted. I was scared, and my daughter was scared. At the same time, I was trying hard not to convey my fear to her. No one much has commented on the possibility that women are more likely to be afraid in the face of such crowds, especially if with a child. I think that's real, and probably statistically valid with regard to possible outcomes. I don't want my kid to be afraid of going to the library in the evening. I don't want to keep her from sports events once she's in middle school because they're unsupervised and dangerous. And I don't want her to end of a victim of some crime just because her mother was too PC to acknowlege the obvious dangers in certain settings. More than I, given when she's grown up and where, she makes distinctions between who's likely to be naughty and who nice that have NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE -- though sometimes coincide with the ever elusive class/values thing. Yes, I don't want to be a minority around a majority of thug-dressing/acting people of any race. Yes, I don't want to be a minority around a majority of skin heads, or gang members. Or persons wearing/acting in a way we used to call "juvenile delinquent." Ditto on spoiled upper-class kids who are acting aggressively. And no, I don't feel like I should have to simper up to them and ask them to stop denying my right to a safe environment or my own car, or travel on a public street. Sounds like appeasement to me, with all undertones that that word had in WWII. If I have to do that, then they have the power and they shouldn't. Law abiding community adults should. And I do think there are too many unsupervised kids here, and as in the other thread, Millburn, doing really bad, sometimes criminal, frequently disrespectful stuff. Maybe in Millburn it's mostly middle/upper middle white kids. Maybe in our town, it's mostly urban values African American kids. In both cases, parents and the community need to acknowlege where the problem lies, and address. | ||
| mem aka "toots" Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 2332 Registered: 5-2001 |
"They get the message. Getting hostile, demanding respect, or picking a fight, sends a completely different one." Wait a minute. This is exactly what these kids are doing. Why should I have to send some kind of message, when I was simply just driving my car? Huh? | ||
| Tom Reingold the prissy-pants Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1191 Registered: 1-2003 |
Some are arguing that this is unacceptable, and some are pointing out that it's normal. You know what? You're not contradicting each other, strictly speaking, you're talking around each other. It's true that some of these behaviors are normal, and it's also true that they're unacceptable. We should expect kids to behave this way, or try to, or pretend to (as with the way they dress) but we should also tell them it's a no-go. Try not to be threatened by kids dressed in "prison-chic" because some of them are just dressing fashionably. You could argue that it's a shame that this is the current fashion, and that's fine, but be aware than not all of these kids are ready to misbehave. Someone pointed out recently that the boys try to look tough, and the girls try to look sexy beyond their years. Both are shames. And these racial generalizations are a real shame. I grew up in Manhattan when things might have been more violent than they are now. I was mugged and even beated a few times, always by minorities. The trouble with human nature, especially after you've been a victim, is to realize that even though most criminals are minorities (whether or not that's true is independent of the perception), most minorities are not criminals. When you see a black or Hispanic, it might invoke fear in you. Then it's up to YOU to fight that fear, and it isn't always easy. If the "culture" of minorities in our two towns encourages bad behavior, what are we to do about that? I really don't know, and I'm not even sure I accept that premise. Tom Reingold There is nothing | ||
| Kenney Citizen Username: Kenney Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-2003 |
wake and bake?? to all my thoughts, add to the end: or not. | ||
| jfburch Citizen Username: Jfburch Post Number: 1110 Registered: 6-2001 |
Well, you can drop to their level or model the behavior and respect you value. Also depends on if you want to improve things or just prove some point--about them, or the way things "should" be--even if it makes things worse. Supervision is an issue. When we had behavior issues at my (private) middle/high school, additional parental chaperones were required for events. It was a way of providing supervison and increasing parental involvement. There are probably lots of things we could do in this community to provide supervision, foster respect, and improve adolescent behavior. All I am saying is that hyperbole, assumptions, overgeneralizations, stereotypes, and indignation won't do much except raise some folks' blood pressure. And Duncan's right--this kind of thing happens lots of places and in lots of groups, and it's happened for a long time. I lived for a few years in Bergen County in the early 70's before moving to nyc and for reasons I still don't understand it was pretty ugly and violent, culminating in some kids burning down a school. Manhattan was far and away a kinder, gentler place. I also went to grad school at Michigan and witnesses "nice boys" overturn cars and smash storefronts to celebrate a basketball victory. Who taught them to do that? | ||
| Duncan Citizen Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 1199 Registered: 12-2001 |
Tom I heartily agree. I was mugged in Detroit wiht a 9mm semi automatic put to the top of my nose between my eyes by three african american 15 year olds. This was 10+ years ago and I stuggle all the time with stereotyping as a result. It is a part of me that I hate. But have to acknowledge and live with "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" Wayne Gretzky | ||
| mem aka "toots" Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 2336 Registered: 5-2001 |
"Well, you can drop to their level or model the behavior and respect you value." Huh? I am not their teacher, parent or whatever, I am simply driving my car on a public street in a town where I pay a heck of a lot of taxes and I don't need to teach some slob's kids how to act when a moving vehicle is approaching them. This is ridiculous! Like somehow their behavior is my fault or my responsibility? | ||
| Tom Reingold the prissy-pants Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 1192 Registered: 1-2003 |
Whoa, Duncan, that's some heavy stuff. Tom Reingold There is nothing | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 193 Registered: 9-2003 |
Tom, I agree with you and I don't. I do think clothes and deportment matter. I think it's more than "a shame" when young girls dress in provocative ways, or young men adopt "prison chic." For good or for ill, how we put ourselves across says something about what we admire, and possibly what we're up for. And prison chic isn't the only fashion going on. I wasn't able to attend the meeting on gangs, but how would your view change if a key identifier was prison chic? Would it make you more less likely to guess that someone so attired was up for violence? And how about if you had a son that wanted to dress that way, or a daughter whose friend dressed that way? I do know a lot of parents opt out on the fight, and I've had friends who've given in utterly on the sexy clothes for little girls issue but I haven't and I don't think it's right to give in just because it's a fashion. Maybe part of my issue is that I am more old fashioned, law/order, respect adults than some folks in this town. I do hold those values, and a strong sense of property rights, and the right of women to be and feel safe in the community. Those values, for me, trump other concerns and I think they're race-neutral. Take back the night, and all that. |
