| Author | Message | ||
     Taylor M Citizen Username: Anotherusername Post Number: 220 Registered: 8-2004 |
mammabear- If you don't like what the school does, send your kids somewhere else. It's a JEWISH school! As for OLS, did they have Jewish books? Why don't you send your kids to Pringry, or another non-religious school? I don't think a religious school has any obligation to other religions, even if they admit students of other faiths. It would be nice if they did though. | ||
| mammabear Citizen Username: Mammabear Post Number: 143 Registered: 5-2001 |
Brett- the majority of Preschool Board is in TOTAL DISAGREEMENT with the temple's stance on this matter. The Board members - Jewish or not -thought it was wrong. In fact, many were horrified. A distinct line has now been draw between the temple's view and the Preschool Board's view on the situation. Board Members are resigning. As for finding another school - this may be an option, but do you realize how hard it is to get an older preschooler into preschool these days? Total nightmare. Taylor- Maybe you think it is understandable that a Christian be offended, but many Jewish people were just as offended. If you knew about the school and it's families, you would understand that the average parent who sends their kids to TSTI, does NOT send them there for a religious education - they happen to like the school's teaching method, they love Carol Paster, they like the classes/teachers, etc. and they like a diverse environment. In fact, most Jewish families I know who attend say they would NOT send their child there if it were 100% Jewish. As I said, only 25% of preschool families are even temple members! And when I enrolled my first child several years ago, it was close to 50% non-Jewish! | ||
| Mark Fuhrman Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 1030 Registered: 9-2001  |
Mamabear: I am sorry you were so hurt by this action. I was not there, and certainly do not know how it was done--and so cannot speak directly to your complaint. But I want to speak to something you said: Again, we are not talking about religiously Christian books. We talking Santa stuff - like kid's books and Christmas wrapping paper... Growing up Jewish in America can make you feel like an outsider, even now when we are so assimilated, even here in Metro New York where there are more Jews than anywhere in the world. It is subtle, not overt (in most cases), and not anti-Semitic. It is more a general presumption that everyone is Christian and enjoys hearing Christmas music in every store all the time, or wants to sit on Santa's lap. When I was a kid growing up, I always felt both attracted to and excluded from Santa, Silent Night, Christmas trimmings. Part of me yearned to fit in, sit on that jolly fat man's lap, and yet the words to Silent Night felt dead in my mouth when we sang them at school--like I was a traitor to my heritage. I am not explaining the shul's actions with this, only trying to point out that Santa carries a lot of cultural baggage for Jews on his sleigh. | ||
| Starr Citizen Username: Starr Post Number: 70 Registered: 9-2002 |
Mammabear, You said you felt "disrespected and discriminated against" when Christmas-themed items were removed from the preschool's book sale and vendor night. How do you think we Jews feel when we're "disrespected" every day during the Christmas selling season? It's everywhere - Christmas music is played nonstop in many retail stores, malls and places like Penn Station. Many stores, museums, offices and libraries have Christmas themed decorations and store owners and co-workers wish us "Merry Christmas," erroneously assuming we celebrate the holiday. We can't get away from it, except in our homes and synagogues. I understand the book sale and vendor night were sponsored by the preschool, not the synagogue. But both events were on synagogue property, so it was entirely appropriate for synagogue members to have a say in determining what was appropriate to sell at the two events. And it was entirely appropriate for them to remove the Christmas-themed items from the sale (even though they were nonreligious items). The preschool is still affiliated with the synagogue, even though the preschool itself is open to children of all faiths. It's not appropriate for a preschool affiliated with a synagogue to sell Christmas-themed merchandise at a school-sponsored event. | ||
| Barbara Citizen Username: Blh Post Number: 400 Registered: 5-2001 |
You know, this reminds me of a story a friend told me (and friend, when you read this -- if I'm retelling it wrong, correct me!) She was at a meeting of her church's governing board which was trying to set up their next meeting. Someone pointed out that the date they had chosen was the Jewish high holiday of Rosh Hashanah. They were about to open their calendars when someone pointed out that, since they were setting a meeting for their Christian church it really was okay for them to schedule it on the Jewish holiday. And, of course it was! The rules are different within a house of worship and its schools then the discussion going on within our PUBLIC schools. I don't expect a Christmas party at a jewish preschool any more than I would expect OLS to be closed for Yom Kippur -- no matter who attends. | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 1465 Registered: 5-2001 |
Another dimension to this is that the school is part of the synagogue - it is not merely a tenant renting space. The synagogue maintains the school as one important part of the services it provides for the benefit of the Jewish community. Disregarding Christmas is not discriminatory. Christmas is simply a non-issue in Judaism. So it is not addressed and it is not displayed. Nobody is saying "You are not welcome here" or "you may not be on our advisory board" because you are not Jewish - THAT would be discriminatory. They are saying, "Please come join us in our celebrations - you are welcome to learn and celebrate with us." | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 1737 Registered: 5-2001 |
Just a ps to the story Barbara tells, which could have come from me. In the end, we did not schedule the event on that date. However, that choice was not because it wasn't okay. (As noted, it was certainly okay.) The reason we chose a different date was because that particular Rosh Hashanah was on a Thursday or Friday, and we had a very pragmatic concern that this might result in lowered attendance at our planned event, as our members might certainly take advantage of a long school holiday weekend to be out of town. We did all get a laugh about it, however. | ||
| nan Citizen Username: Nan Post Number: 1639 Registered: 2-2001 |
I agree with the temple on this one and I really resent the notion that non-Jewish "paying customers" should be served in the manner in which they are accustomed. It's a temple, damit--they are supposed to care about greater things than just making a sale. Last time I checked, God was not a capitalist. My son's first daycare was at Trinity Church in lower Manhattan. Although there were many religions and cultures enrolled at the school, all children from about the age of 3 on were required to attend church services once a week. Some parents were very upset about this--I can remember one Jewish family moved to a different school, in large part because of discomfort with that requirement. I was not thrilled, but I accepted it because basically I had no choice--it was not a secular environment and I knew that when I signed my child up (ironically, the head of the preschool and some of the teachers were Jewish). Eventually, I came to think it was a good thing--I figured anyone that could get my rambunctious 3 year old to sit still and listen to a lecture on any topic deserved credit for even trying. | ||
| Joan Citizen Username: Joancrystal Post Number: 4597 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mammabear: Santa Claus, reindeer and decorated tannenbaum may not appear Christian symbols to a Christian but Jews view these symbols differently. When you are trying to explain to your pre-schooler why s/he cannot write a letter to Santa, string colored lights on their schrubbery, or decorate a tree (be it called Christmas tree or Chanukah bush) like so many of their friends or like they see in the movies and on TV, it doesn't help to have your temple selling items the children associate with Christmas. My son was one of two Jewish children in his pre-school class at Prospect Coop but unlike the pre-school program at TSTI, this school while housed in a church is entirely secular in its curriculum. | ||
| aquaman Citizen Username: Aquaman Post Number: 226 Registered: 8-2001 |
mammabear, Last time I checked "Santa Claus" is code for "Saint something-or-other, Nicholas I think. Sheri Tefilo is a Jewish school, they make no bones about it, you send your kids to a secular school and you think the world revolves around your entirely different religion? Good G-d. | ||
| johnny Citizen Username: Johnny Post Number: 1155 Registered: 5-2001 |
First of all it was a fundraiser. Second of all the fundraiser was for the school and not the temple. Third, the school does admit non-Jewish families. If you want to have a successful fundraiser, you should probably have items that appeal to all of the families. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 12824 Registered: 10-2001  |
Baloney. Good for the temple. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 12825 Registered: 10-2001 |
Hey Johnny: I believe that you are very angry about the music situation in the schools and this is how it came out. What I would suggest is that you should recognize that the schools under the BOE are public and Sharey Tefilo is not. That's what I believe. I will trust that you at some point recognized the difference. | ||
| johnny Citizen Username: Johnny Post Number: 1157 Registered: 5-2001 |
Game on, Sbenois. Or should I use your real name? | ||
| Soda Citizen Username: Soda Post Number: 2228 Registered: 5-2001  |
Remember, Mammabear: TSTI, my synagogue, is a Reformed Jewish institution, and probably the most likely of the various Jewish denominations to either welcome or accept non-Jewish students into one of its school settings. Most other Jewish denominations are certainly much less likely to be so inclusive regarding non-Jewish board members. Reformed Jews consider reaching out ecuminically to other religions as a GOOD thing, and part of the liberality of the sect's self-image. However, If some Jewish TSTI school board members are "shocked", and are resigning, as you say, they are IMHO indulging in vanity. They should not have offered Christmas items for sale to begin with. There are boundaries which need to be kept... -s. BTW: Though you claim to have "embraced" the school's Jewish curriculum, you are not a Jew, and should not be expected to easily understand the rightness of pulling the items from the sale. I hope, though, as Debby has said, that your discomfort will pass. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 12826 Registered: 10-2001 |
Why did you remove it? Did you believe it or not? | ||
| johnny Citizen Username: Johnny Post Number: 1158 Registered: 5-2001 |
It only matters what you believe Sbenois. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 288 Registered: 3-2002 |
Mammabear, My daughter went to another Jewish synagogue preschool in town, and I have to give you my perspective. 1. I expect my synagogue to be a christmas free zone, with no exceptions except for the ones that Debby mentions (i.e. happily accepting mentions of Christmas from the other kids there). Synagogue is the one place in this society that my child can be part of the majority culture in December, with no discussions of why we don't string the house in colored lights or have a tree. If you are a Jew, Santa is a Christian thing. Really. 2. You may be paying more for preschool, but you don't pay synagogue dues. We got a discount on preschool, but only after paying over $1000 per year in synagogue dues. So don't say that your higher fee gives you special privileges. 3. The preschool board may be pissed, but at the end of the day, the Rabbi is in charge of what goes on in his/her synagogue. If the synagogue members don't like it, they can replace him. If the rest of you don't like it, you may be in the wrong school. If my Rabbi allowed Christmas materials to be sold in the synagogue, there would be trouble -- it just isn't appropriate. 4. The school is not required to sell whatever you might want to buy. You have plenty of places to buy Christmas books, and your school has plenty of ways to raise money. In my opinion, this topic is a total non-starter, and you are showing a real blind spot here. Diversity is not the same as Christmas everywhere, even in synagogues. | ||
| mammabear Citizen Username: Mammabear Post Number: 144 Registered: 5-2001 |
I really resent the notion that non-Jewish "paying customers" should be served in the manner in which they are accustomed. It's a temple, damit--they are supposed to care about greater things than just making a sale. Last time I checked, God was not a capitalist. Nan - have you read any of the posts? This has nothing to do with "customers" or "capiltalism". It's about discrimination and disrespect. Aquaman - I do not have an "entirely different religion". I do not expect anyone to believe what I believe, feel what I feel, or praise what I praise. I do, however, ask that I be respected, the same way I respect others. Do unto others...etc. Excuse me for believing in diversity. Excuse me for trying to raise my children in a society where your religion, your race or your political offiliation do not matter. I am not trying to change anyone's views. I am not putting down anyone's differences. I am just having a very hard time accepting that any of you think this discriminination is acceptable. As Sbenois said, if Morrow were removing Hannukah books, what type of discussion would we be having here? I have worked hard to embrace people's differences. I have believed for years that my family would be "accepted" and that it would't matter that we were not Jewish. I was sadly mistaken. My whole view has changed. I just never thoguth it would come to this in a town like South Orange. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 12827 Registered: 10-2001 |
mammabear, I do not think that there is anything at all wrong with the Temple choosing to avoid seling books on Santa Claus. I also don't think there would be anything wrong with the Morow Church refusing to sell books on Hanukah. These are houses of worship. It's totally acceptable in my view for them to make choices that they believe are in accordance with advancing their faiths. I can't see the problem. |
