| Author | Message | ||
     mammabear Citizen Username: Mammabear Post Number: 149 Registered: 5-2001 |
Nan- Once again, you have taken my words and twisted them. This situation is not about money, tuition, or the idea that because anyone pays more, they should get something or be able to have more influence. It's not about Christmas specifically really. It's about what the Preschool population is vs. what the temple wants and perceives it to be. It's about lack of respect. It's about a school selling themselves as one thing, then switching gears and being something else. If I enrolled my children in a Jewish Preschool that was 98% Jewish, I would expect the response that I got. I would not expect Christmas items at a book sale. (BTW, when I say Christmas items, it was about 3 Santa-ish books and one roll of wrapping paper used as a fundraiser to wrap items purchased at the vendor night) But I enrolled my children in a neighborhood school at a Reform Temple, that made it seem like me and the other almost 50% of its non-Jewish population that attend school there were welcome. I've spent years volunteering, sitting on the Board, etc. and now I am being slapped in the face. I respect the idea that some Jews may feel a certain way about Christmas - I even empathize with anyone who has been made to feel like an outsider, etc. But many Jews at the school - Board memebrs and parents alike - feel the same way I do. I am not some lone Christian woman trying to buck the system. I am not trying to disrespect any Jews or their feelings. I am merely pointing out that the decision made was not a wise one given all the factors involved. | ||
| mammabear Citizen Username: Mammabear Post Number: 150 Registered: 5-2001 |
Greene - this is not "your community" - it's a preschool. How dare you question what anyone's motivation is when they enroll their children for preschool? "Outsiders" have been invited to attend this wonderful school. "Outsiders" have volunteered their butts off baking, organizing events, creating newsletters, helping in classrooms, hosting welcome coffees, sitting on the Preschool Board, etc. Regardless of what anyone's motivations may be, we have all worked hard to make sure preschool was a positive experience for our children. We have embraced the idea of sending our children to a Jewish school and have shown nothing but respect for every aspect of it. We, on the other hand, are not being shown that same respect back. FWIW, on the Preschool Board we have both temple members and non-temple members with the majority of the Board being Jewish, regardless of membership status. With the exception of maybe 2-3 people, they all feel the same way I do. Some are even more outspoken and are now reconsidering their decision about whether they will join the temple at TSTI or not. Again, not trying to disrespect anyone or their feeling, hust merely pointing out that there is an opposing side and alternative views. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 293 Registered: 3-2002 |
Mammabear, Why in the world are you in such a snit about "3 santa-ish books and one roll of wrapping paper"? What is your agenda? This is the synagogue's decision, as the ultimate host and owner of the preschool. You are disrespecting many Jews, and members of that synagogue, by your continued airing of this. If you don't like it leave. If you want to stay, quit trying to make your hosts look bad in public. If you misunderstood what a synagogue preschool is, Sorry (maybe you should give them some advice on what they tell new non-member parents). But I'm tired of hearing that synagogue preschool on-site booksales need to sell Christmas stuff -- that would definitely not be a wise decision, based on the consituency, mission and goals of the host synagogue. Your attitude is coming across as anti-semitic to my ears, whether or not you mean it to. The key to me is that you think that you know better (on a Jewish issue) than the Rabbi of the synagogue in which your school is housed. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 3577 Registered: 5-2001  |
Susan- thank you. Very well said. Mama- you blow my mind & can't even begin to see how you sound. No, it is not "just a preschool". Not my community? You really are obtuse... Why don't you print off this thread & share it with the other members of the preschool Board & the Temple Board. Let me know how it works out. I dare you. Done with you.... | ||
| nan Citizen Username: Nan Post Number: 1644 Registered: 2-2001 |
Mammabear, I stand by what I said. If you were not making a point about "money, tuition, or the idea that because anyone pays more they should get something or be able to have more influence." then why were those included on a numbered list of reasons why you felt the temple should sell Christmas products? I was responding to what you wrote. That's all I have to go on. | ||
| nan Citizen Username: Nan Post Number: 1645 Registered: 2-2001 |
Tom, We are talking about people who claim, under the umbrella of "recognizing diversity," that religious institutions should sell the products from other religions, and yet they feel it is appropriate to say "Merry Christmas" to everyone, because it seems the need to recognize diversity only applies to others, not to them. Bobk, It's already the morning and I've had just about had enough of this crap. You can't swallow valium when you are gagging. I've got "Cocktails with Cole Porter" playing on the stero. Maybe that will help. IMHO, the "yes it's so nice to be nice to the nice and we are all so nice" point of view lost validity with the M&M lawsuit. It's not about niceness. It's about power. And noone knows that more than the powerful that pretend to be nice. | ||
| dytunck Citizen Username: Dytunck Post Number: 242 Registered: 3-2001 |
mammabear, As a parent of a Christian child at Sharey Tefilo, I have to weigh in against you. The school is trying to raise money in a way they see fit. If the Temple decides Santa items are inappropriate, (I agree) then it's their choice. Who's gonna notice there are no Santa items? The children? If the Temple decides against kissing booths or raffles or selling any objectional objects for cash, they make the choice of losing that revenue. It really isn't intended as an insult. I think you're the only one incensed here. Let it go already. | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 1466 Registered: 5-2001 |
This is taken directly from the preschool website at www.tsti.org The Iris Family Preschool is an extension of the family experience that is unique to Temple Sharey Tefilo Israel. An active lay board maintains the relationship between the Preschool and the Temple. The Preschool Board also works with the Director to create a foundation for a school that supports the growth of each child within a Jewish setting. Ours is a Jewish focused preschool program open to all members of the community. The school does not sell itself as one thing and then pull a 180. Mamabear - You say that you " have believed for years that my family would be "accepted" and that it would't matter that we were not Jewish. " Hasn't this been true? You have stayed at the school for 4 years and become involved in it's lay leadership. You have enrolled additional children in the program. Surely you wouldn't stay on and strengthen your ties if you or your children weren't accepted. You have been accepted and welcomed, and your children have been taught and loved and nurtured. We are a Jewish school that welcomes everyone. That does not make us "less Jewish". | ||
| mammabear Citizen Username: Mammabear Post Number: 151 Registered: 5-2001 |
Greene- Have you ever considerd how YOU sound? You are free to disagree with me, but as I said, I am not alone here. I am not some crazed Christian woman who is trying to buck the system at my neighborhood temple school. Many Jews - both temple and non-temple members - feel the same way I do. I'd be glad to share this thread with the board - I am certainly not affraid. "Done with me" ?? Grow up. Susan- you are free to disagree with me as well, however, don't accuse me of antisemitism or somehow intimate that I am not being gracious to my "hosts". (sorry, but that struck me as funny!) I am "in a snit" because of the message the temple is sending to the non-Jewish students and their families. Maybe they were Santish book in this case, but it's the exclusion I have trouble with. It's the undertone that the non-Jewish students are some dirty little secret in the basement. It's the message that we are really NOT welcome. Yeah, they'll gladly take our money, ask us to volunteer our butts off, but in return, when it comes down to it, they really don't want us there. And for the record, the book sale and vendor night happen to be the most recent incidents - there are others that have occured over the course of the years. If they want to be 100% Jewish and not recognise others, then they should not allow non-Jews to attend. You can't have it both ways. Also, are you saying that ALL of us who disagree with the temple's decison should leave the school? Oh Nan, now the economics have become very clear to me. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 4930 Registered: 1-2003  |
mammabear, there are middle ground positions you haven't entertained in your post above. Sounds like the school has done a decent job at including various types of people. I still don't see that they have a duty to be inclusive of various types of traditions and beliefs. I would expect a school attached to a house of worship to lean heavily in one direction. I wouldn't hold them to a duty to be even-handed. I'm surprised you do. The fact that you do is what comes across as anti-semitic, although I am sure you don't mean it that way. What do you hope to accomplish by prolonging this discussion here? | ||
| mammabear Citizen Username: Mammabear Post Number: 152 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom- you are correct. There are middle ground positons, but unfortunately, that will never be discussed. When it comes to our faiths, it becomes hard for either side to budge. I am just as guilty as the temple I suppose. The sad fact is that gives non-Jews at the school two decisions...either stay, keep your mouth shut, and live with it or leave the school. My ultimate fear is that one of my children would ever feel like an outsider or be made to feel "different". I am comfortable with myself, my beliefs, etc, but would hate for the temple's feelings to spill over into the preschool. | ||
| steven Citizen Username: Steven Post Number: 57 Registered: 6-2001 |
I would no sooner go to a temple to buy christmas wrapping paper than I would go to a church to by my passover matzoh. Oy vey, get over it mama. There are bigger problems in this world to worry about. Your last post takes the cake. You're worried about your kids feeling exluded? Try being the only Jewish kid forced to sing how Jesus is our savior when you are in a public school. You have your kids in a private Jewish school by choice, move them to a church if you want them to feel more included. As someone said above, when you are a minority there are precious few places where you (especially children) can relax and know that you are with others who understand what your minority status means in your day-to-day life. Obviously, you have never lived in that environment. I wanted to type 'lucky you' but I am not sure if I can consider you lucky if your views and opinions are what comes from that 'privilege.' | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 4933 Registered: 1-2003 |
Mammabear, look at your kids' feeling different as a valuable opportunity. This may be their last. It could build compassion in them for others. I didn't choose to live in this community because I expected the ethnic groups to live in harmony. I expect there to be discord. I believe that discord and tension is useful to my kids. That is my way of valuing diversity. You call it keeping your mouth shut. I call it respecting their decision. | ||
| nan Citizen Username: Nan Post Number: 1646 Registered: 2-2001 |
"Also, are you saying that ALL of us who disagree with the temple's decison should leave the school? Oh Nan, now the economics have become very clear to me. " Mammabear, I never said you should leave the school. My impression was that you you were using the threat of non-Jewish students leaving to justify and perhaps force the temple to comply with your demands to be served as you feel you are entitled to be. Big difference. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 295 Registered: 3-2002 |
I was the one who said that she should leave the school if she is uncomfortable there, rather than expect the rabbi to compromise on synagogue principles to make her comfortable. I stand by that. Synagogues are synagogues, and sometimes doing what is right for little Jewish kids has to take precendence over maximizing fundraising (or keeping thin-skinned Christians happy). Again, if she feels that the school has misled her (and she chooses to stay), she could work to make sure that the policies are communicated more clearly in the future. However, she should not be trying to tell Jews what the policies should be in a synagogue. As someone else said, I believe, there is a difference between being inclusive and being non-denominational. If she wants non-denominational, she is likely in the wrong place. It's sad that it took her this long, and this much anger, to figure that out. | ||
| Zoesky1 Citizen Username: Zoesky1 Post Number: 597 Registered: 6-2003 |
This has to be one of the most overblown and dumbest topics ever. Why is anyone surprised that a synagogue wouldn't want to sell Christmas items? Can we please just end this dopey conversation now? There are tens of thousands of dead children on the shores of the Indian Ocean, and we're complaining about Santa wrapping paper? No wonder the rest of the world thinks we're idiots. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 1588 Registered: 6-2003 |
Afraid I'm with Zoesky here. I'm a Jew who enjoys the trappings of the Xmas season. I like the lights, the tree's,(even though the trees are actually a Pagan not Christian tradition-couldn't however convince my Grandmother of this growing up), the melodies and don't get offended when someone wishes me a Merry Xmas. I guess there were times in my life where I felt slightly isolated but in the end, there is enough richness in my tradition where it isn't a big factor. My son is much more of a minority in our school system then I was growing up. He doesn't have a problem with this, in fact I think he kinda likes being in the minority. He likes learning about his friends traditions and sharing ours with them. That being said, you shouldn't expect a Jewish run school to offer Christian themed merchandise just as you shouldn't expect a Christian run school to offer Jewish themed merchandise. As citizens of the world our major concerns should be with the natural disasters overseas. | ||
| marian Citizen Username: Marian Post Number: 531 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ditto and ditto. Can we please, please put this thread to bed? | ||
| DeborahG Citizen Username: Deborahg Post Number: 1136 Registered: 5-2001  |
"My ultimate fear is that one of my children would ever feel like an outsider or be made to feel "different". You mean like my kids do during every single Christmas season -- everywhere *except* at their Jewish preschool? Please. Zoesky, loved your post. Thanks for the reminder. I'm off to the Red Cross site. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 297 Registered: 3-2002 |
I'll be giving heavily to disaster relief, but that has no bearing on whether I have time to post here, or concern about the topic at hand. Zoesky, will the world be helped if I ignore local issues and spend another hour watching CNN? If I were there, I'd be digging in the rubble -- here, I can just give money (which is pretty quick). Don't assume that I'm not doing my duty because I'm on vacation and have time to post. I'll agree that this issue isn't big league, but I won't leave certain charges unanswered, when they affect the town that I love. As long as Mammabear is maligning one of the local synagogues with her surprising anger, I reserve the right to defend them. |
